The Illusion of Control

[SavedByGrace3]

I want to propose an experience that is not only possible, but is the norm:

We all believed the Gospel in our hearts before we accepted it in our minds.

We suffer an illusion that we "ask Jesus into our hearts" or "make Jesus lord of our lives" or "pray the sinner's prayer" and that these actions are what effect salvation and new birth.
I would submit to you that these actions are merely the efforts of our minds to catch up with something that has already happened in our hearts.
The progression of events are actually as follows:
1. God speaks the truth into our hearts (spirit) the end result thereof is faith, salvation, and the new birth:
Rom 10:17
17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Isa 55:11
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
Jam 1:18
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
1Pe 1:23
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
2. Our minds become aware that something has occurred in our heart. In an attempt to reconcile what has happened, the mind will: (Appease, assent, authenticate, substantiate, confirm, validate, corroborate, justify, defend) the event with an emotional act or perhaps a condescending act to the will. The mind wants to think it is in control. The "free will" utility of our being wants to be placated.
The point being is this. You were saved by the action of the spirit before your rational mind conceived that it happened, and any action your conscious mind took thereafter were desperate efforts to justify it to those carnal sensibilities.

Thoughts???

 

[RevKidd]

Are you basically saying that the majority of people, upon hearing the word, understand in their hearts that they need to be changed? However because of our minds, who will to be in control, we either make a decision for Christ, or we don't?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Are you basically saying that the majority of people, upon hearing the word, understand in their hearts that they need to be changed? However because of our minds, who will to be in control, we either make a decision for Christ, or we don't?

Not exactly bro.
I am saying that their hearts are changed immediately upon the entrance of the Word. There are no decisions that makes any difference on that level. Decisions may be made so the mind will maintain for itself the illusion of control. But in reality the spirit, the word, and faith are in control.

 

[RevKidd]

Not exactly bro.
I am saying that their hearts are changed immediately upon the entrance of the Word. There are no decisions that makes any difference on that level. Decisions may be made so the mind will maintain for itself the illusion of control. But in reality the spirit, the word, and faith are in control.

So let me ask this.

Are you saying that it is possible for one to be saved, and not know it, and continue to live out their sinful life and enter into God's kingdom? The reason I as is because of this statement.

the mind will: Appease, assent, authenticate, substantiate, confirm, validate, corroborate, justify, and defend the event with an emotional act or perhaps a condescending act to the will

 

[SavedByGrace3]

So let me ask this.

Are you saying that it is possible for one to be saved, and not know it,

Of course not. It will manifest. What I am saying is that when it does start to manifest, then our minds want to wrap something around it to make it quantifiable and rational. But you certainly cannot be saved and not have it surface in your understanding and confession.

and continue to live out their sinful life and enter into God's kingdom? The reason I as is because of this statement.

I think we touched this in another thread. If a man is a good tree and has the seed of God, then he cannot sin from the heart. His flesh will want to sin to be sure... but the darkness will so grieve his spirit that he will have to move into the light.

 

[Andrew]

Makes sense diddy.

But I think both heart and mouth play a part. ie even though it begins from the heart or spirit, it still has to be spoken:

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Heart and mouth seem to go hand-in-hand.

anyone can explain why in v10 heart believing is linked to righteousness and the mouth/confession, to salvation, and not vice versa?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Makes sense diddy.

But I think both heart and mouth play a part. ie even though it begins from the heart or spirit, it still has to be spoken:

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Heart and mouth seem to go hand-in-hand.

anyone can explain why in v10 heart believing is linked to righteousness and the mouth/confession, to salvation, and not vice versa?

Yes and amen!
It is enevitable that the mouth will follow the heart:
Luke 6:45-46 KJV
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

and:

Romans 8:15-16 KJV
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

and again:

Galatians 4:6 KJV
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

One of my favorite passages regarding the involentary confession of the heart is actually from Job:

Job 32:18-20 KJV
18 For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me.
19 Behold, my belly is as wine which hath no vent; it is ready to burst like new bottles.
20 I will speak, that I may be refreshed: I will open my lips and answer.

When our spirit is full of the truth, it will naturally want to flow forth from our mouth!

 

[robl]

What do you make of the people that fall away after trials and the cares of life come upon them? Did they just believe in their mind without the commitment of the heart? Interesting thought.....

 

[riverpastor]

What do you make of the people that fall away after trials and the cares of life come upon them? Did they just believe in their mind without the commitment of the heart? Interesting thought.....

That's a good question as well.

I believe part if the answer lies in a couple of sets of scriptures:
In Matthew 13, Jesus speaks the parable of the sower.

Matthew 13:19 Everyone hearing the Word of the kingdom, and not understanding, then the evil one comes and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is that sown by the roadside.
Matthew 13:20 And that sown on the stony places is this: the one hearing the Word, and immediately receiving it with joy,
Matthew 13:21 but has no root in himself, but is temporary, and tribulation, or persecution occurring because of the Word, he is at once offended.
Matthew 13:22 And that sown into the thorn bushes is this: the one hearing the Word, and the anxiety of this age, and the deceit of riches, choke the Word, and it becomes unfruitful.
Matthew 13:23 But that sown on the good ground is this: the one hearing the Word, and understanding it, who indeed bears and yields fruit, one truly a hundredfold, and one sixty, and one thirty. ​

It seems as though there has to be a degree of understanding of the Word. What we must clarify is that the word is revelatory in nature in regards to our spirit-man. If this is the case, then the understanding could either be depicted as an understanding of the heart as opposed to an understanding of the "mechanical" mind.

With the "mechanical" mind we can easily assent to anything to be truth.

Anything!!!

And we will live our lives according to the truth we believe... even if that truth is a lie!

To simply have a "mechanical" mind understanding would not necessarily lead us to a saved-walk. I want to say that it would be revelatory in the spirit first then an act taken upon that revelation of our mind, will and emotions (the soul).

Jesus said that if we hear the Word of His Kingdom, but do not understand it (???grasp the significance of the revelation???) then the enemy will come as a bird to snatch away the seed which was planted in our hearts. But right there! We have Jesus explaining the Word planted where??? In the "heart" and not the soul or mind!

I believe in the "egg-before-the-chicken" theory, Didy.

Notice what happens to one who has received the Word of the Kingdom into his heart AND UNDERSTANDS it. He will produce fruit - some 30, some 60, some 100-fold!


I believe that the mind (or the soul), yes, has to try to justify the belief of the heart. But, take a look at what the Apostle Paul writes:

Romans 12:2 And stop assuming an outward expression that does not come from within you and is not representative of what you are in your inner being but is patterned after this age; but change your outward expression to one that comes from within and is representative of your inner being, by the renewing of your mind, resulting in putting to the test what is the will of God... (Kenneth Wuest Translation)​

So Paul is stating that we have a responsibility to correct our behavior, not by trying to live by some standards, and to force our flesh by our mind (will-power) to do the right thing, but to simply turn our soul (mind, will and emotions) inwardly so that we may be renewed in the mind and transformed in the outer man.

Our mind is to be renewed (constantly) according to our true spiritual nature.

At first, I believe the mind is a loose cannon after receiving the revelation of the Kingdom. Paul affirms that we should renew our mind in order to be transformed into the image that we understand ourselves to be in the inward man.

In other words, you become what you behold. Therefore, we should behold what we are in Christ thereby renewing our mind (intellect, understanding, will and even our emotions) according to the new nature within.

Like turning a satellite dish to SkyAngel or Playboy. We are to turn our soul inward to gaze upon the shared nature that we have with Christ Jesus and not point our "dish" (the soul) to the outward world. We will be receptive to whatever we focus upon. And it is our choice in which direction we turn our soul!

That's why many Christians who struggle with unrighteousness in their own lives, yet have a terrible hunger and desire to please God, continue to struggle and strive against sin. We can fight our sin, and as long as we focus on fighting it, we will become what we behold. "But I'm standing against my sin"... Yeah, but still gazing upon it. Let me change the scripture around just a minute so that we may better understand this aspect of renewing our minds.

Romans 12:2 and be not conformed to RIGHTEOUSNESS, but be transformed TO UNRIGHTEOUSNESS by the renewing of your mind (towards sin)... (FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY).

What your heart focuses on, you eventually turn to. Lot's wife is a good example. She left Sodom physically but not in her heart as directed by her soul (mind). She chose to direct her thoughts towards Sodom even though she was physically taking steps to move away from it in the earthly realm. Eventually, her whole body turned to the desire of her soul.

Had she desired the salvation of God, she would not have turned into a pillar of salt. And maybe she did, but mentally, intellectually, soulfully, willingly, emotionally she was still connected to her old life in Sodom. She was destined to go back because she "renewed" her mind towards Sodom... I believe Lot, on the other hand, renewed his mind upon the Mountains of Refuge... What are our minds to do with what is revealed in our hearts?

 

[Svt4Him]

There are some things my mind believes, but my heart doesn't, and there are some things my heart believes, yet my mind knows it shouldn't.

ie. I believe God's love is the same if I'm doing great things or small things. My heart feels more loved when I'm doing great things.

Then there are times I feel a certain way towards someone, even though my mind is telling me another.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

a good post

Excellant points RP!
I am going to add these to my list of pro points!!!