The 'illogicality' of part-predestination

[Beoga]

I'm just going to say that this appears to be a circular argument first. Then let me just say that God is working within the universe to achieve part of his will (the will of God is for all mankind to be saved) as by using events as well as man (both those who believe and those who do not).

I am sorry you believe in a God that doesn't get what He has willed. very sad.

However the Calvinstic viewpoint that man has no choice is choosing to follow God is not found in the Scripture, but refuted by it.

Thankyou for the scripture, i am now convinced that calvinism is wrong

 

[unimportantbuthisnameis]

I'm not sure how to take that latter comment, seems like it could be a little sarcastic

 

[Beoga]

I'm not sure how to take that latter comment, seems like it could be a little sarcastic

just a little

 

[unimportantbuthisnameis]

That's what I thought, but it's hard to tell without the inflection in the tone of voice.

 

[Beoga]

That's what I thought, but it's hard to tell without the inflection in the tone of voice.

i do what i can

 

[Colossians]

Limited Predestination is taught in scripture, total predestination is not.
We have shown you cannot have part predestination. Scripture is not needed for everything: God gave you a brain.
Your evasion of explaining the implications you said you had thought through, is telling.

A thug sees you standing on the corner waiting for a bus. He decides to go and push you over. You had no idea what was coming. You break your arm in the fall.
Your arm is broken so severely that it will never heal properly, and since you are a top-line tennis coach, your days on the court are over.
This affects the circle of people you will come into contact with the rest of your life.
Either this was predestined, or it was fate. A Christian cannot believe in fate.


A personal example:
16 years ago I was at University in another state, and ran into a guy (Jeff) who was skeptical about Christianity, but who was still basically a Christian.
I had lunch with him on occasions and at one of these times, said to him "You know the verse that says "God hath given to every man a free will"?". He said "yes".
I said, "well it doesn't exist".

That was the straw that broke the camel's back.
He joined a Calvinist church, praise God, and also started up a University fellowship called C.R.U.F (Christians Reformed University Fellowship), in which he espoused the truths of Calvinism.

He also met a lovely lady at his new church, who would become his wife 5 years later.
I returned to my home state at the end of the university year.
5 years later I was in invited to the wedding as groomsman, and flew back up there.
The night before the wedding, a get-together was arranged for his buddies, and we all sat around a large room in the college he had been resident in, and ate chips and candy, and watched a movie.
Most were Christians. I was sitting next to a guy who asked me how I knew Jeff. I explained how I had met him at University, and a little about myself.
I had no idea who he was. Suddenly he said: "You're not the guy who gave the would-be bible verse "God hath given to every man a free will" are you?"
I said, a little surprised, "yes".
He said, "well thank-you then... we're all here because of you". (They had all come into the Calvinist faith because of the conversation between myself and Jeff 5 years earlier. And God had predestined me to hear the result 5 years later, so that I would enjoy the work of His hands.) So I praise God for His work, and that He is the one who calls into being the things which aren't as though they are.


And here's the verse for you to show full predestination:
"Man plans with his mind, but God directs his steps"

I am very thankful to the Lord that my weeks, days, and seconds are predestined. I can rest in Him completely then, knowing it is all a work of His hands, and that even my thoughts as I write this statement are His work. This is the Sabbath of God.

He is the potter, I am the clay. He has made me as He has willed, and will complete His work in me to the nth degree, exactly on time. He calls the shots, He does it all. He gets all the glory. Praise God.

"I work, who shall inhibit me"

 

[Van]

Colossians, you and Reformationist should get together with your fellow Calvinist frumanchu (sp error sorry) and come up with a common understanding. For you to attack my view as something developed by a guy without a brain, in light of the fact it is consistent with scripture and at least the overall view of other Calvinists seems odd.

Man plans with his mind, but God directs his steps could mean lots of things. Taking this equivocal verse and asserting it means total predestination is underwhelming. Not everything we plan comes to fruition. A guy could break a tennis coach's arm and alter his plan. Since this is within the purvue of what God permits, it can be said that God directed the alteration of his plans. No inference of total predestination is warrented.

 

[Eric_C]

To anyone listening

I'm in full agreement with the opening post. In fact, I'm certain that this concept (total predestination) is the single most overlooked, understudied issue by the non-Calvinist. The misunderstanding of this issue is evident all over this forum in the non-Calvinist posts.

First of all, Scripture; "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:3)

"For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things" (Romans 11:36)

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:15-17)

Now you, the non-Calvinist. What part of your existence in this life was not created by Him? Your past? Your present? Your future? Your choice/decisions in any of the three?

You see, all that you have been, are now, or ever will be (that which constitutes you as an individual, your choices included) is created by Him. All of time is created by Him and so, all of your time is created by Him. Who you are is not just you at any given moment but all of your moments together, from birth to death.

I'm appalled by this notion that God created time in a bowling alley. "Well, He just got the ball of time rolling and pokes at it with an intervention stick from time to time" No! God created every single moment of time (past-present-future) and all the whole of everything that takes place in it! Yes, even sin. Why should this surprise you? You have no problem with Him being made sin for us, do you? (2 Cor. 5:21) Yes, He who knew no sin, was MADE sin for us.

You will say; "a person can change his future", to which I ask: change it from what? Was there an other future that existed that is now changed? No, for mankind, travailing back in time is not possible in this life. The future is simply the past that has not yet been experienced. The future cannot be changed because it is part of God's creation, which from eternity, is completed."When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." (John 19:30) This verse should be read in light of the verses given above, especially Col. 1:17.

Right about now your getting ready to throw all of your fears of indifferent fatalism at me. Please don't, there is much that has been written on the subject, all one need do is type Indifferent Fatalism into the search engine of "Choice" and there will be plenty for one to study, and hopefully, calm your fears. What I can offer is this. Knowing that God is in control of all things provides me with the confidence that what I do in Him, does indeed have an impact on the lives of others for His Glory. In my humble opinion, total predestination is fatalism only to those who think that God cannot save them without their help.

And here's the verse for you to show full predestination:

"Man plans with his mind, but God directs his steps"

Yes indeed, it could not be made any more clear.

I do appreciate you sharing your personal experience of God directing your steps.

 

[Van]

Eric, yes, God created all things, including our ability to make choices and our opportunity to make choices. Consider this Eric, God hardens hearts. Now why would he need to intervene in the course of events and alter that course to bring about his desired outcome if total predestination was true?

 

[cygnusx1]

Eric, yes, God created all things, including our ability to make choices and our opportunity to make choices. Consider this Eric, God hardens hearts. Now why would he need to intervene in the course of events and alter that course to bring about his desired outcome if total predestination was true?

My answer would be that it seems like intervention , but it was all part of the Decree . God does work ALL things together for Good!
All Events are under His Sovereign gaze , permission and wisdom .
When God intervenes , that is similar to a miracle , and if you know the problems connected with determining what a miracle is , you will know that all life evry second is a miracle. It just seems extraordinary when things don't take there "natural" course.

 

[Van]

Eric, if the idea makes sense to you, that God intervenes to make us think he alters the outcome of events, even though he is in deterministic control of every thought and every deed of every person that ever lived or will live, there is nothing more I can say. Hyper-Calvinism is obviously inconsistent with the picture of reality presented by the bible. That is why Calvinists, such as Frumanchu offer a view that is consistent with the Biblical picture, that God permits stuff to happen and alters it by intervention to bring about His purpose and predestined plan. Now I differ completely with Frumanchu's idea of the extent of the plan, but he is on the money in my opinion on the overview.

One other point concerning the initial post of this thread, which you endorsed, is that we can debate and discuss whether God is implimenting His plan for creation by deterministic control of everything, or as I believe, by limited intervention to bring about limited predestination in accordance with His purpose and plan. But, to argue, as the starter post argues, that God could not impliment limited predestination is silly. God can do whatever He choses to do, and if His plan includes limited predestination to afford the opportunity for conditional election, He can do it. Whether He did or not is a matter for debate. My favorite way to illustrate the difference between something God is capable of doing and what He actually does, is to say, God could have given me the exactly correct view on this matter, but that does not indicate He did.

 

[nobdysfool]

What we are seeing here is the desperate attempt by non-Calvinist/Reformed individuals to try to find some sort of basis for their belief that they are the ones in control of their lives, and that God pretty much lets them live their lives as they want, only occasionally intervening if they go too far one way or the other. This is the essence of their cry that "we have free will!", and is the heart cry of fallen man. I'm not saying that those who don't believe in full predestination are not saved, so don't hit "report" for that, because that's not what I said.

Salvation is a walk, and it is a time of learning, becoming more and more conformed to the Image of Christ, and growing in His Wisdom and Knowledge. Part of that growth is to see that while one may have thought things were a certain way upon receiving initial salvation (because from their point of view it appears to be that way), as one grows in His Knowledge, at some point they will be challenged by the Holy Spirit to see, understand, and accept that the way they thought things were is not the way they actually are.

This is the essence of the debate we are seeing unfold before us. Nearly all Christians start out with an Arminian understanding, because that is what they seem to see, and what they perceive, that they "accepted" Christ, that they "decided" for Christ, and that it was their own free choice, because they did not perceive any differently. It is only in retrospect, after seeing the truths of Reformed doctrine, that they look back on their own experience, and see that what they perceived at the time was only a small part of what actually occurred, and that their perception was in fact not what really happened.

I know that my own salvation experience was that way. At the time, I thought that it was my decision which saved me, but now I see that it was God's sovereign quickening of my heart, coupled with hearing the Gospel, and in my case, actually having a vision of Christ's crucifixion, which put me on my knees, and my "decision" was in reality the response of my heart to what I saw, not so much a decision as a yielding up of any idea of resistance, because what I saw, I wanted more than anything else in the world. That desire was born in me by God, it didn't originate within my own heart. I know Calvinist/Reformed doctrine to be true, because I experienced it, and I know my own self well enough to know that I would have never chosen Christ unless God had first quickened my dead heart, and birthed within me the desire for Christ.

 

[Van]

Nobdysfool, I do not know if you think my presentation of my views concerning what the bible actually teaches is a "deperate attempt" to bolster a prideful attitude, but if that is the case, I beg to differ. If to say we make choices within the purview granted by God, which is in accordance with God's plan for creation, is the heart-cry of fallen man, that seems to be an argument for a bait and switch gospel. Why do all Christians start out with a non-calvinistic view? Because it is the gospel they heard and accepted. The bible says the gospel is delivered by folks that preach the gospel to folks that hear the gospel, believe the gospel and call upon the name of the Lord. God gave His Son, and therefore God gave us the gospel message. We would not believe in Jesus if God had not sent Jesus to save that which was lost. Jesus says few find the narrow way that leads to life, indicating our capacity to find the narrow way. Jesus says we can wish to take the water of eternal life, indicating our capability to take the water. The idea that Jesus tells us to do stuff we are unable to do makes no sense to me.

 

[Pamelaopen]

Predestination is very hard for me to understand. About two years ago when I first heard it, I actually wished I would die in a car crash because it was causing me so much grief. I decided to seek help and then forced myself to quit thinking about it. I’m not sure why but lately it has been bothering me again, and so when I saw this thread I wanted to read people’s opinions on the subject.



I have only really understood what Jesus did when he chose to let himself get arrested and whipped and nailed to the cross for me for a little over two years. I was raised in the church and I could repeat the facts of what happened two thousand years ago, but I never really understood it until about two and one half years ago. That is why I say I have been a Christian for only 2 ½ years.



Predestination causes me tremendous grief because of the mistakes that I have made in my life before I was a believer. I am talking about big mistakes and one massive mistake. My grief comes because: I am not sure but I think the predestination view is that I was going to be saved at some point in my life no matter what, so I think, “Why wasn’t I saved before the mistake so that I wouldn’t make it.” Now, a friend told me I was predestined to make all my mistakes including that particular mistake saved or unsaved. How could that mistake be in God’s plan? It could not bring any glory to God.



Also, if everything I do is predestined, they why pray? Or, am I predestined to pray or not to pray?

 

[Van]

Pamelaopen, first you should note that not everybody understands what Predestination means in the same way. The folks on this board who are Hyper-Calvinists think everything, including your mistakes were predestined by God, every thought of every person, every action of every person was deterministically controlled and foreordained by God. Lets call this the Total Predestination view. Others, like myself and some Calvinists, thinK God predestined the overall perview of man, that God permits mankind to make choices, including those choices where we sin. Lets call that the Limited Predestination view. Now, beyond this point, I part ways with the Calvinists, because they believe mankind is incapable of trusting in Christ, and therefore God enables preselected individuals to trust in Christ. This view, then is that all believers in Christ were predestined to believe in Christ from before the world began. And as I said, I do not share this view. I believe God formulated a salvation plan before the world began, and God chose His Redeemer, Christ before the world began, and He predestined what would happen to believers in Christ after salvation including be comformed to the image of Christ and inheriting eternal life.

In summary, we have three radically different views of Predestination being espoused in this discussion. Please consider all three views because predestination might not mean what you think. Study the Bible and see for yourself what predestination is actually talking about, only two slightly differerent Greek works are translated predestined or foreordained or predestination, and they appear a total of 7 times in six verses only, not too much to study.

In Romans 8:29, we see that those called by His named, those that accepted the gospel, believers in Christ are the product of God's plan which God formulated beforehand, were also predestined or foreordained to be comformed to the image of Christ, something that happens to every believer in Christ. Therefore "predestined" as used in Romans 8:29 refers to things that happen to believers once they are in Christ, and does not apply to anything that happened before they were placed by the grace of God into Christ. Romans 8:30 again indicates things that are predestined for believers in Christ, being predestined both to a holy calling in this life and an inheritance of eternal life, and does not say anything was predestined concerning our lives before we are "in Christ."
Study Ephesians 1:5 and 1:11 and the same conclusion will be reached.

 

[cygnusx1]

When it comes to the very practical subject of Prayer we are faced with not ONE but TWO difficulties.

1. If God is Not in Full Control of everything , then some things are indeed impossible to God , so why bother praying?

2. If God IS in Full Control of Everything , then why bother praying in the first place.


The first question tells me we cannot expect much or hope for much when we pray.
But the last question tells me God has decreed our Prayers , they are in fact within His plan.

So without reservation I accept the second concept.

 

[nobdysfool]

Nobdysfool, I do not know if you think my presentation of my views concerning what the bible actually teaches is a "deperate attempt" to bolster a prideful attitude, but if that is the case, I beg to differ.

Please understand that I am not accusing anyone directly of a prideful attitude. I am making the case that the attitude that you actually had a real and essential part to play in receiving salvation from God (apart from the obvious necessity of "being there") is in reality a declaration of self-will being on par with God's Will, and therefore believing in a synergistic salvation, which is not taught in the Bible. Mankind as a whole is extremely uncomfortable with any notion that they themselves do not control or determine the course of their own life. Close examination will reveal that this is essentially a denial of God's Sovereignty over the individual, and parallels Lucifer's own "I Will" declarations.

If to say we make choices within the purview granted by God, which is in accordance with God's plan for creation, is the heart-cry of fallen man, that seems to be an argument for a bait and switch gospel. Why do all Christians start out with a non-calvinistic view? Because it is the gospel they heard and accepted.

Firstly, I do not deny that we make choices within the purview granted by God. They are real choices, but what you fail to accept is that those choices were completely and entirely known by God before you made them, and because of His complete Foreknowledge, were incorporated into His Plan. However, that is not an argument for Election being made on the basis of Foreknown choices, because that is not the basis of Election. Election by God is based on His Own wise counsel, not on your foreknown choices. Scripture is specific on that point.

As to people believing in that Arminian fashion because that's the Gospel they heard, to a great extent that is true, but that does not therefore legitimize the Arminian view. Many have been saved under Calvinist preaching as well, and it is Calvinists who have spearheaded the greatest revivals and Gospel Outreaches the world has ever known. Calvinists are at the forefront of Evangelism, both historically and to this day. Most of the American Churches are Arminian, and I echo R. C. Sproul's words when he was asked if Arminians were truly saved. Sproul's answer: Yes, but by "felicitous inconsistency".

The bible says the gospel is delivered by folks that preach the gospel to folks that hear the gospel, believe the gospel and call upon the name of the Lord. God gave His Son, and therefore God gave us the gospel message. We would not believe in Jesus if God had not sent Jesus to save that which was lost.

The gospel is preached by those who have received Christ, and obey His command to "Preach the Gospel to all nations, teaching them to observe whatsoever I have commanded you." The power of the Gospel does not rest on the accuracy of delivery, nor does it rest in the eloquence of the preacher. The Power of the Gospel resides in the Holy Spirit moving upon men as He Wills ("The wind blows where it will and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell from where it comes, or where it goes").

Jesus says few find the narrow way that leads to life, indicating our capacity to find the narrow way. Jesus says we can wish to take the water of eternal life, indicating our capability to take the water. The idea that Jesus tells us to do stuff we are unable to do makes no sense to me.

To believe that 'command implies ability' is a serious fault in understanding scriptures. God commands, "Be ye holy, for I am Holy", and it cannot be argued that man has no native ability to obey that command. Yet God commands it. One must either believe that God is sadistic and cruel in commanding that which we cannot obey, or one must realize that the only acceptable response to God at that point is to ask Him sincerely, "How?" The desire to obey God is found only in those whom He has regenerated. it does not exist in the unregenerate heart. Even you, who believes in the power of man's free will, must understand that the will is driven by desire, and with no desire, there is no will to do that which one does not desire to do.

The will of man is driven at its base by two things: to avoid pain, and to gain pleasure. In a situation where one seemingly chooses to do other than what one would truly desire to do, the deciding factor is avoidance of more undesirable consequences if one choose what one truly desires than if one chooses something else, so as to avoid the undesirable consequences, so the desire to avoid pain overrides the desire for pleasure (choosing the lesser of two evils, so to speak, or choosing the least undesirable option). One cannot escape the fact that desire is the root of the will.

 

[Van]

Nobdysfool wrote, "They are real choices, but what you fail to accept is that those choices were completely and entirely known by God before you made them, and because of His complete Foreknowledge, were incorporated into His Plan."

Yes, it is true that I "fail to accept" the double loop de lou absurdity of your premise. There is no, none, zip, nada support for this fiction. Foreknowledge has nothing whatsoever to do with foreseening the future as if it had happened. There is no, zip nada support for this fiction. Now if something is planned and predestined, then knowledge of the plan includes limited knowledge of the future, because no plan of God can be thwarted. But the word foreknowledge means simply something known from the past that is being used in the present. If I plan to eat eggs for breakfast tomorrow, when I sit down and eat, I can say this breakfast is by my foreknowledge. That is what the term actually means in scripture.

The argument that folks who hold a differing view of God's plan are less committed to the doctrine of God's sovereigny is ad hominem of no merit. 'For others to willfully advocate a plan not of God demonstrates a prideful attitude and is merely the cry of fallen man.' The question I must ask, is if you can see that my statement is an ad hominem, why is it you cannot see that yours is?

What the Bible actually says is the power of the gospel is in the message that is delivered and if another gospel is delivered, folks are not saved, they are led astray.

 

[nobdysfool]

Nobdysfool wrote, "They are real choices, but what you fail to accept is that those choices were completely and entirely known by God before you made them, and because of His complete Foreknowledge, were incorporated into His Plan."

Yes, it is true that I "fail to accept" the double loop de lou absurdity of your premise. There is no, none, zip, nada support for this fiction. Foreknowledge has nothing whatsoever to do with foreseening the future as if it had happened. There is no, zip nada support for this fiction. Now if something is planned and predestined, then knowledge of the plan includes limited knowledge of the future, because no plan of God can be thwarted. But the word foreknowledge means simply something known from the past that is being used in the present. If I plan to eat eggs for breakfast tomorrow, when I sit down and eat, I can say this breakfast is by my foreknowledge. That is what the term actually means in scripture.

There is every reason to believe it, as it is the Truth regarding God being Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent. Unless you want to try to prove to me from scripture that God is none of those things. Logically, if He is not, then He is not God.

I know that whatever God does, it shall be forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it; and God does it so that they fear before Him. That which has been is now; and that which is to be has already been; and God requires that which is past. (Ecc 3:14-15)

Remember former things from forever; for I am God, and no other is God, even none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from the past things which were not done, saying, My purpose shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure; calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my purpose from a far country. Yes, I have spoken, I will also cause it to come; I have formed; yes, I will do it. (Isa 46:9-11)

God cannot declare the end if He does not know it. To say that God does not know with certainty every thought, every deed, every action you will do before you do it is to say that He is not Omniscient. The exact meaning of the word Omniscient is to "Know everything", or "Know all". Are you sure you want to adopt that position? Your definition of Foreknowledge is flawed, because you betray your method of understanding: you compare God's Foreknowledge with your own conception, and then equate them. I take from your words that you believe that if you can't conceive of it, then neither can God. To say that God's Plan being predestined includes only a limited knowledge of the future (for God) tells me that you are being influenced, if not downright convinced of Open Theism. that is the ancient heresy of Molinism repackaged and reworded. At least have the decency to admit it if it is so.

You offer no support for your contention that Foreknowledge has nothing to do with foreseeing the future as if it had already happened. You just say it can't be. That would be true if God were constrained by time the same way we are, but He is NOT! He created time. He is not enmeshed or trapped in it, He controls it! You apparently have this idea that history unfolds in random fashion, and God only pokes and prods here and there to keep it moving in the right general direction, and then specifically intervenes at specific points to make certain specific things happen, while otherwise leaving it alone. If so, you actually believe in a modified form of Deism. Yours is the unbiblical belief here.

The argument that folks who hold a differing view of God's plan are less committed to the doctrine of God's sovereigny is ad hominem of no merit. 'For others to willfully advocate a plan not of God demonstrates a prideful attitude and is merely the cry of fallen man.' The question I must ask, is if you can see that my statement is an ad hominem, why is it you cannot see that yours is?

Just calling a remark an ad hominem because it disagrees with your view is sophistry.

What the Bible actually says is the power of the gospel is in the message that is delivered and if another gospel is delivered, folks are not saved, they are led astray.

Perhaps you should meditate on that a while. You said it. I didn't.

 

[Van]

Nobdysfool wrote, "There is every reason to believe it, as it is the Truth regarding God being Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent. Unless you want to try to prove to me from scripture that God is none of those things. Logically, if He is not, then He is not God."
What the above formulation misses is that God can do as He pleases. If he chooses not to know something He can do it. If He chooses to not exercise His power for His purpose He can do it. To argue that God must fit into your viewpoint, or He is not God, betrays a lack of respect for the unfathomable facets of God. God is all knowing and He knows all things, but just what is the context of these statements? Peter says Jesus knows all things, but clearly the all only included the things of Peter's heart. To extrapolate verses like this is unsound in my opinion.

Nobdysfool wrote, " God cannot declare the end if He does not know it. To say that God does not know with certainty every thought, every deed, every action you will do before you do it is to say that He is not Omniscient."

Here again is the logic of man asserting what God can or cannot do. If God wanted to declare the end, without foreseeing the future as if it had already happened, God could do it. To assert otherwise is to say God is not God. God can search our hearts and know our hidden thoughts and attitudes, or at His pleasure and for His purpose, He can choose not to obtain the knowledge and instead test us to find out what our attitude is. Read the story of Issac and Abraham. Your one size fits all God is not the God of the Bible.

I offer no support for what foreknowledge means? 2 Peter 3:17(NASB) translates one of two Greek terms translated elsewhere as foreknew or foreknowledg, as "knowing this beforehand." Literally "before knowledge" means knowledge acquired beforehand.

Nobdysfool, I never said God could not know the future, how would I know something like that, for all things are possible with God.

I reread the following and still think it is truth: What the Bible actually says is the power of the gospel is in the message that is delivered and if another gospel is delivered, folks are not saved, they are led astray. </FONT>