The 'illogicality' of part-predestination

[Colossians]

Sometimes I wonder whether many Christians think.

There are people in the world who seem to understand the necessity for all to be predestined, if predestination is to be true at all, whereas many Christians somehow think that one can be predestined in part, with the other part randomly occuring.


Let's take an example:
Scripture tells us Jesus was delivered predeterminately to the cross (Acts 2:23).

Now let's look at what that would entail:
There had to be a Roman Governor who would give in to the crowd. So God had to make sure Pilate was there.
There had to be the crowd, specifically the Jews, who hated Jesus.
There had to be an empire in charge of the Jews, in order for Jesus to be titled on the cross "The king of the Jews".

There had to be a donkey waiting for Jesus to bring him into Jerusalem.

Analysis:
Now ... Pilate had a mom and dad. So God had to get the right mom and dad together, and make sure the right seed of Pilate's dad met the right egg of Pilate's mom, so that Pilate would pop out.
The same for his grandparents, and great grandparents etc.




Homework:

Exercise 1:
Extrapolate similarly for the donkey.


Exercise 2:
Analyse what coordination of events was required (at least 3 levels of 3 input streams) for your own salvation to occur.

Example:
(Input stream 1)
1a: A man at the bus stop spoke to me about Christ
1b: I had to be running late in order to meet him
1c: My University class had to be running late in order for me to be late

(Input stream 2)
2a: My mom and dad had to have me when they did
2b: My mom and dad had to move to the city where I met the man at the bus stop.
2c: My dad's job had to be relocated to that city where I met the man.

(Input stream 3)
3a: My expense of parking a car at University necessitated that I travelled by bus
3b: The local council and university authorities had to organise car parking facilitites at a certain prohibitive cost to me
3c: The people who voted for the council in power had to vote the way they did.

 

[Beoga]

i would do the hw, but i don't know what extrapolate means.

 

[Stinker]

Sometimes I wonder whether many Christians think.

There are people in the world who seem to understand the necessity for all to be predestined, if predestination is to be true at all, whereas many Christians somehow think that one can be predestined in part, with the other part randomly occuring.


Let's take an example:
Scripture tells us Jesus was delivered predeterminately to the cross (Acts 2:23).

Now let's look at what that would entail:
There had to be a Roman Governor who would give in to the crowd. So God had to make sure Pilate was there.
There had to be the crowd, specifically the Jews, who hated Jesus.
There had to be an empire in charge of the Jews, in order for Jesus to be titled on the cross "The king of the Jews".

There had to be a donkey waiting for Jesus to bring him into Jerusalem.

Analysis:
Now ... Pilate had a mom and dad. So God had to get the right mom and dad together, and make sure the right seed of Pilate's dad met the right egg of Pilate's mom, so that Pilate would pop out.
The same for his grandparents, and great grandparents etc.




Homework:

Exercise 1:
Extrapolate similarly for the donkey.


Exercise 2:
Analyse what coordination of events was required (at least 3 levels of 3 input streams) for your own salvation to occur.

Example:
(Input stream 1)
1a: A man at the bus stop spoke to me about Christ
1b: I had to be running late in order to meet him
1c: My University class had to be running late in order for me to be late

(Input stream 2)
2a: My mom and dad had to have me when they did
2b: My mom and dad had to move to the city where I met the man at the bus stop.
2c: My dad's job had to be relocated to that city where I met the man.

(Input stream 3)
3a: My expense of parking a car at University necessitated that I travelled by bus
3b: The local council and university authorities had to organise car parking facilitites at a certain prohibitive cost to me
3c: The people who voted for the council in power had to vote they way they did.

A. The physical nation of Israel had to exist.
B. The promised Messiah had to come from this physical nation.
C. The church had to come from this promised Messiah.

This is the predestination that the Bible talks about.

 

[nobdysfool]

A. The physical nation of Israel had to exist.
B. The promised Messiah had to come from this physical nation.
C. The church had to come from this promised Messiah.

This is the predestination that the Bible talks about.

All true, but if you think that's the extent of it, you're not thinking clearly at all. To ensure that the desired result happens, the events leading up to it must also be predestined. And as a result of the desired result coming about, the events following are also predetined, based as they are upon the result which gave rise to them.

What is being exposed here is the human tendency to shrink away and resist the idea that we are not in ultimate control of our lives, or of our actions. We look around us, and it seems that we have no constraints or limits on what we can do, so we assume there are none. Predestination brings us up short, because The Word of God says that all that is, and all that shall be is foreknown and predestined by God, and nothing happens that isn't as God has foreseen and determined to be. And yet, at the same time, we freely choose, and whatever we choose is what God has determined beforehand will happen.

What you have tried to say is that God has predestined three definite, specific events to occur in the midst of random chance. That isn't much different that saying that if you put the parts to a Swiss watch into a shoebox, and shake it long enough, the watch will assemble itself, or that if you give typewriters to 10,000 chimpanzees, along with a limitless supply of paper, evetually they will type out War and Peace (or the Bible) in its entirety.

Presdestination really separates the men from the boys when it comes to Theology.

 

[Van]

I do not believe in total predestination. The assertion support has been put forward from the reasoning of men, not scripture. The effect is to make scripture to no effect.

If folks believe in the Sci Fi Divine Matrix, when every thought is predestined, why did God harden hearts. To make it appear he had to take action to fulfill his purpose.

God takes action to bring about the circumstances and individual actions necessary to fulfill his prophesies. To assert that God could not impose limited predestination, that that would be too great a feat for God is limiting God.



Another Calvinist contention is that God’s sovereignty extends deterministic control over every occurrence in the life of every human being. Psalms 139:16 says that before David was born, his days were ordained by God. His days were written in God’s book before David was born. But just as God chose Esau before he was born for a purpose, God chose David before he was born for a very different purpose and ordained that David would play a specific part in God’s redemption plan. God ordained and brought to fruition His plan of salvation, using the life of David. The key mistake made by those advocating deterministic control as a condition for every life, is to extrapolate God’s shepherding of His Shepherd King. The Double election doctrine rejects extrapolation of God’s individual choice and controlling influence of some people for good or ill to bring His salvation plan to fruition to everyone who ever lived or will live. This extrapolation nullifies God’s purpose and plan and therefore is invalid in my view because it creates paradoxes.



Similarly, Ephesians 2:10 is sometimes used to support the idea of deterministic control. God prepared good works beforehand that we should walk in them. But all this might mean is that God’s salvation plan includes spreading the Gospel via believers filled with the Holy Spirit, thus the good works or tasks were established by the plan, but that does not necessarily include specific control over each individual life.



There are at least three views of God’s sovereignty: A deistic view that God created everything initially, and established the laws of nature to constrain events, but then stepped back and allows events to unfold without any deterministic control or interference. The second deterministic view is that God causes and controls everything such that man does only what is predestined. The third double election view is that God created everything, established the laws of nature to constrain events, but continues to invade time and space as necessary to bring His predetermined and predestined plan into effect. But since this plan includes individuals choosing to place their faith in God, God allows mankind the opportunity to make choices, to recognize what is in his interest and what is in the interest of others including God. Jesus brought God’s plan to fruition, providing the means for mankind to choose to glorify God with all their heart and with all their mind and with all their understanding.

God hardens hearts. If this is true, then logically, God caused the outcome brought about by the hardening of the heart. And He did it at the time that the individual or group lived, he changed their hearts. He intervened in space and time and fulfilled His prophecy. God hardened Pharaoh's heart to increase the power of the message. God fulfilled His purpose. This is what the Bible says.

Read Isaiah 44:24-28. In verse 26, where God says He confirms the word of his servant, it means He brings about what His servant prophesies. Where it says He performs or fulfills the purpose of His messengers, it is saying God causes it to happen. God prophesies that the cities of Judea will be built, and then it says that God will raise them up, again fulfilling prophecy by intervention to bring it about. The Bible is clear from one end to the other.

Why did Jesus get Baptized by John? Jesus did it so as to fulfill all righteousness which was pleasing to God. God taking action to bring about God's purpose and plan.

The word fulfill means to repay, the idea is that when God purposes or says something an oblication is created which is repayed when God brings it about. He fulfills prophecy.

God intervenes and causes events to occur so that His purpose is satisfied, His predestined plan is brought to fruition. Why was Jesus silent like a lamb? See Isaiah 53:7/Matthew 27:12.

Acts 3:17-18 says that what is prophecied, God fulfills. He intervenes and takes all action necessary to bring about His purpose and plan. Look at Matthew 4:12, Jesus again taking specific action to fulfill prophecy.

 

[Bulldog]

A. The physical nation of Israel had to exist.
B. The promised Messiah had to come from this physical nation.
C. The church had to come from this promised Messiah.

This is the predestination that the Bible talks about.

What is the predestination here then?

[bible]Romans 8:29-30[/bible]

 

[nobdysfool]

I do not believe in total predestination. The assertion support has been put forward from the reasoning of men, not scripture. The effect is to make scripture to no effect.

That's quite a leap. And not one shred of evidence to support it. Just saying so doesn't make it so.

If folks believe in the Sci Fi Divine Matrix, when every thought is predestined, why did God harden hearts. To make it appear he had to take action to fulfill his purpose.

I have no idea what you're talking about. "Sci-Fi Divine Matrix"?? Is that a Star Trek novel? You're making no sense.

God takes action to bring about the circumstances and individual actions necessary to fulfill his prophesies. To assert that God could not impose limited predestination, that that would be too great a feat for God is limiting God.

Who ever said that? You're setting up the straw man. Let's see if I got it straight....it limits God if He can't set up limited predestination.....
Ooookayyyy........

Another Calvinist contention is that God’s sovereignty extends deterministic control over every occurrence in the life of every human being. Psalms 139:16 says that before David was born, his days were ordained by God. His days were written in God’s book before David was born. But just as God chose Esau before he was born for a purpose, God chose David before he was born for a very different purpose and ordained that David would play a specific part in God’s redemption plan. God ordained and brought to fruition His plan of salvation, using the life of David. The key mistake made by those advocating deterministic control as a condition for every life, is to extrapolate God’s shepherding of His Shepherd King. The Double election doctrine rejects extrapolation of God’s individual choice and controlling influence of some people for good or ill to bring His salvation plan to fruition to everyone who ever lived or will live. This extrapolation nullifies God’s purpose and plan and therefore is invalid in my view because it creates paradoxes.

Why is it that every newbie who comes in here fancies himself an expert on Calvinism, when it is manifestly obvious that he knows absolutely nothing about it except what some anti-Calvinist has fooled him into believing Calvinism is? I don't know why I should even bother answering this. You're not fighting against Calvinism, you're fighting against a figment of your own imagination that you THINK Calvinism is. You're not even making logical sense!

Similarly, Ephesians 2:10 is sometimes used to support the idea of deterministic control. God prepared good works beforehand that we should walk in them. But all this might mean is that God’s salvation plan includes spreading the Gospel via believers filled with the Holy Spirit, thus the good works or tasks were established by the plan, but that does not necessarily include specific control over each individual life.

That thought scares you, doesn't it? That God knows before you do, what you will do, and has already incorporated it into His Plan, clear out to the end of your life. He knew your life, and every action and thought in it, before you were even conceived. He knew you before your great-grandparents were even conceived. He knows your great-grandchildren already, and their lives are open and clear before Him, every thought, every action, and it all has been included in and made a part of His Plan. Even this exchange between you and I was known before the foundation of the world, and predestined to take place right here and now.

There are at least three views of God’s sovereignty: A deistic view that God created everything initially, and established the laws of nature to constrain events, but then stepped back and allows events to unfold without any deterministic control or interference. The second deterministic view is that God causes and controls everything such that man does only what is predestined. The third double election view is that God created everything, established the laws of nature to constrain events, but continues to invade time and space as necessary to bring His predetermined and predestined plan into effect. But since this plan includes individuals choosing to place their faith in God, God allows mankind the opportunity to make choices, to recognize what is in his interest and what is in the interest of others including God. Jesus brought God’s plan to fruition, providing the means for mankind to choose to glorify God with all their heart and with all their mind and with all their understanding.

Individuals don't "choose" to place their faith in God, because until God regenerates their cold, dead, stony hearts, they cannot and will not choose God. Unregenerate men do not have the ability to choose God, even though they have the freedom to do so. They are not constrained by God in any way from choosing Him, but in their unregenerate state, they cannot and will not choose Him. If you knew anything about Calvinism correctly, you would know that.

God hardens hearts. If this is true, then logically, God caused the outcome brought about by the hardening of the heart. And He did it at the time that the individual or group lived, he changed their hearts. He intervened in space and time and fulfilled His prophecy. God hardened Pharaoh's heart to increase the power of the message. God fulfilled His purpose. This is what the Bible says.

God hardens hearts in the sense that He removes restraints which keeps people from hardening their hearts as fully as they would. God has predestined what will happen, but it is the responsibility of those who actually commit the acts, thoughts and sins, as well as righteous actions. If anyone is limiting God, it is those who say that God cannot predestine actions without also being responsible for commiting them.

Read Isaiah 44:24-28. In verse 26, where God says He confirms the word of his servant, it means He brings about what His servant prophesies. Where it says He performs or fulfills the purpose of His messengers, it is saying God causes it to happen. God prophesies that the cities of Judea will be built, and then it says that God will raise them up, again fulfilling prophecy by intervention to bring it about. The Bible is clear from one end to the other.

Yes, the Bible is clear, God is Sovereign, and all things are by His express design, decree, and Will, and nothing that is exists apart from or in defiance of His Will. He calls those things that are not as though they are, and so they are, and He brings to nothing those things that are, and they cease to be.

The word fulfill means to repay, the idea is that when God purposes or says something an oblication is created which is repayed when God brings it about. He fulfills prophecy.

Fulfill
1 archaic : to make full : [size=-1]FILL[/size] <her subtle, warm, and golden breath ... fulfills him with beatitude -- Alfred Tennyson>
2 a : to put into effect : [size=-1]EXECUTE[/size] b : to meet the requirements of (a business order) c : to bring to an end d : to measure up to : [size=-1]SATISFY[/size]
3 a : to convert into reality b : to develop the full potentialities of
synonym see [size=-1]PERFORM[/size]

Hmmm...where do you get "repay"? God's fulfillment of prophecy isn't an "obligation" or debt, it is the exection, the satisfaction, the performance of what he has beforehand spoken.

God intervenes and causes events to occur so that His purpose is satisfied, His predestined plan is brought to fruition. Why was Jesus silent like a lamb? See Isaiah 53:7/Matthew 27:12.

Acts 3:17-18 says that what is prophecied, God fulfills. He intervenes and takes all action necessary to bring about His purpose and plan. Look at Matthew 4:12, Jesus again taking specific action to fulfill prophecy.

Actually, you're undercutting your own argument. You want to have your cake, and eat it too. God did not predestine only certain events and leave everything else to random chance and fortune. I am beginning to suspect that you've been reading Boyd, and are investigating, if not already believing in Open Theism. I would caution you that Open Theism is heresy, the old heresy of Molinism.

The first thing you should do is to get some accurate and correct teaching on Calvinism. I suggest http://www.apuritansmind.com as a good starting point, as well as http://www.monergism.com

 

[Van]

Nobdyfool, thanks for sharing you insights. I see no reason to continue this discussion, I have stated my view as clearly as I know how, but it seems according to you I have only wasted others time because I am a know nothing. I will certainly agree time has been wasted and I know very little.

 

[cygnusx1]

i would do the hw, but i don't know what extrapolate means.

basically means " to reason out " ....

WordNet Dictionary
Verb1.extrapolate - draw from specific cases for more general cases Synonyms: generalize, infer, generalise
2.extrapolate - estimate the value of Synonyms: interpolate
3.extrapolate - gain knowledge of (an area not known or experienced) by extrapolating

 

[Colossians]

Van,

Your position (whether it be true or false) would be clearer to yourself if you simply do the exercise number 2, as suggested. See how your thinking is affected as you record the 3 input streams.

 

[Van]

Colossians, Sir I have seen that argument before and I have thought through the implications carefully. I have seen the argument that opponents to Calvinism do not understand Calvinism several times before as well. It seems to me Calvinists are a tad too eager to point to an assumed deficency in the cognative capability of opponents. God intervening in the world as necessary to bring about His purpose and plan is clearly taught in Scripture. Total predestination is incompatible with scripture.

 

[nobdysfool]

Nobdyfool, thanks for sharing you insights. I see no reason to continue this discussion, I have stated my view as clearly as I know how, but it seems according to you I have only wasted others time because I am a know nothing. I will certainly agree time has been wasted and I know very little.

Hey, I'm not trying to tear you down, but rather to encourage you to search more deeply, and to reason more clearly. One thing that is certainly true in this day and age is that people have not been taught how to really think. It's too easy to let someone else do the thinking for us, so bombarded are we by information from so many sources, and so easily obtained. It has been said that the man of 1776 had a whole year to assimilate and think about the amount of information that receive in one day. So we either just accept without critical thought the information that we are being bombarded with, or we filter out that which is irrelevant, and concentrate on that which is relevant. The former is what most people do, the latter is what we SHOULD do.

I have found that learning about basic logic is a vital step to clear reasoning. The single most helpful book for me was one with the unlikely title of "The Art of Deception". I highly recommend this book, NOT because it teaches one how to deceive, but it teaches one how to recognize deception, and how to defeat it. It teaches you how to reason clearly, logically, and how to recognize logical fallacies and destroy them.

Please think about what I have written to you. It was not meant to demean or insult you, but rather to challenge you to have the courage of your convictions, but at the same time to be willing to be corrected. If I came on too strong, I apologize. It wasn't meant to wound you, but to help you. Debating and discussing the Word of God is NEVER a waste of time!

 

[Van]

Van wrote, "I do not believe in total predestination. The assertion support has been put forward from the reasoning of men, not scripture. The effect is to make scripture to no effect.

Nobdysfool responded, "That's quite a leap. And not one shred of evidence to support it. Just saying so doesn't make it so." This in response to my post which listed numerious verses from scripture. The preceding post, arguing against limited predestination did not list any scriptural support. My opening sentence was the "tell them what you are going to tell them" opening and the support for the assertion followed in the post.

Nobdysfool wrote, "I have no idea what you're talking about. "Sci-Fi Divine Matrix"?? Is that a Star Trek novel? You're making no sense."
The idea that everything is predestined, that our every thought is given to us is akin to the science fiction idea presented in the movie "The Matrix".

Van wrote, "To assert that God could not impose limited predestination, that that would be too great a feat for God is limiting God."

Nobdysfool responded, "Who ever said that? You're setting up the straw man. Let's see if I got it straight....it limits God if He can't set up limited predestination.....
Ooookayyyy........"

That was the argument, or so I understood of the thread opening post, so I understood Colossians to be saying that. If I was setting up a strawman, which means I was being deceptive and using sophistry, I am sorry. Please explain the point of the opening thread so I can correct my characterization, I still think it is on the money.

I asserted that Calvinists believe in Total vice limited Predestination. That every thought is predestined by God.

To which Nobdysfool responded, "Why is it that every newbie who comes in here fancies himself an expert on Calvinism, when it is manifestly obvious that he knows absolutely nothing about it except what some anti-Calvinist has fooled him into believing Calvinism is? I don't know why I should even bother answering this. You're not fighting against Calvinism, you're fighting against a figment of your own imagination that you THINK Calvinism is. You're not even making logical sense!"
I can certainly say that some Calvinists assert this position and claim it is the Calvinist position. Nobdysfool, what is your view on the scope of predestination?

Here is what you posted which matches Total Predestination, " That thought scares you, doesn't it? That God knows before you do, what you will do, and has already incorporated it into His Plan, clear out to the end of your life. He knew your life, and every action and thought in it, before you were even conceived."

Nobdysfool wrote, "Individuals don't "choose" to place their faith in God, because until God regenerates their cold, dead, stony hearts, they cannot and will not choose God. Unregenerate men do not have the ability to choose God, even though they have the freedom to do so. They are not constrained by God in any way from choosing Him, but in their unregenerate state, they cannot and will not choose Him. If you knew anything about Calvinism correctly, you would know that."


Yes, I do know that is the Calvinist position. And I believe it is wrong. I have looked at many of the verses and arguments used to support the concept of total depravity and spiritual inability and have concluded there is no support. The kindest thing I can say is many of the verses are equivocal.

Lets just take one for example, Romans 9:16. It says salvation does not depend upon the man that wills. Now how did that guy will prior to salvation? My answer is that folks can will, can pursue righteousness by the Law and some even by faith.

I asserted the argument that because God hardens hearts, He had to change to outcome that would otherwise have occurred, thereby proving by my lights, that total predestination is a fallacy.

Nobdysfool responded with, "God hardens hearts in the sense that He removes restraints which keeps people from hardening their hearts as fully as they would. God has predestined what will happen, but it is the responsibility of those who actually commit the acts, thoughts and sins, as well as righteous actions."

Scripture says God hardens hearts, and Nobdysfool say no, God removes restraints, with no scriptural support. Then Nobdysfool say the humans harden their own hearts. Talk about making scripture to no effect. The Bible is clear, God hardened the heart to bring out His purpose and plan. But lets move on, because the logic fails anyway. God took action during the life of the folks and resulted in a changed outcome. Therefore, this teaches intervention and not total predestination. QED And please do not now assert God predestined the intervention to create the impression that we exercise some control over our choices when the opposite is true.

Here is a non-Calvinist argument using parallel logic. God created invisible pink elephants and has them orbiting Mars. You say, where in scripture does it say that. I point to John 1:1-3. God created everything including invisible pink elephants. Since everything is possible with God, and you cannot prove from scripture my fiction from whole cloth is not true, then it is true. And if you knew anything about scripture, you would know that it is true.

There it is, Nobdysfool, a fiction, supported by equivocal verses, and bostered by an ad hominem.

Moving on, I supported the idea that God intervenes and brings out what He desires using Isaiah 44:24-28.

Nobdysfool responded with the truth that God is sovereign and nothing happens unless God allows it to happen. But if God's plan is to allow mankind to make choices in order that some would choose Christ and glorifiy God, made all the more glorious by our depravity in Adam, then God can do it. To say otherwise is again to limit God.

Next, I asserted that when God fulfills prophecy, it is like repaying a debt. Nobdysfool said, that is not what fulfill means and then said it is God taking action, executing his plan. Perhaps Nobdysfool's explaination is superior to mine, but the end result is the same, God interveneing in the world and bringing about His prophecy. Again, if everything is predestined, God would not need to intervene. Scripture teaches limited predestination.

Next, I provided more examples from scripture demonstrating intervention to bring about God's plan, and Nobdysfool simply asserted I was undercutting my own argument. But no explaination as to how I was undercutting was provided.

And finally I was told my views are close to false doctrines, and I certainly agree they diverge from Calvinism.

 

[Colossians]

Van,

I have seen that argument before and I have thought through the implications carefully.
Don't keep it a secret - tell us what the implications are.
But my guess is that you are not confident in being able to refute the argument, so you prefer to rely on your emotions which tell you somehow that, even though the argument would defeat you, this is only because you don't have enough information, and not because you are wrong. In other words, you have 'faith' that you are right.

What would you say to us if we said something like "I have heard the argument before, and I have thought through the implications", and then not bothered to tell you anymore. Would you not say that we were copping out?

 

[Colossians]

Every event is linked to every other event in the universe: all events eventually effect someone.

If I go for a walk, I alter my life span either up or down (depending on my condition);
which affects my country's revenue;
which affects other Christians' income;
which governs the way they do things, and how often;
which affects where they will be, and the time and resources they will have to preach.

So the spiritual life of someone in Katmandu will ultimately be affected by my going for a walk. Arminian's need to submit to the fact that in a universe of causality, nothing happens by chance: there is no randomness: all is predestined.

And this is comforting. For I can rest assured that my mighty God is moving everything.
"In Him we move and live and have our being"
"He works all things in accord with the counsel of His own will"

 

[Van]

Limited Predestination is taught in scripture, total predestination is not.
I have provided several verses that indicate intervention, or limited action to change the outcome in accordance with God's purpose and plan.

God takes whatever actions are necessary to fulfill His Prophecies. Jesus remaining silent was provided as an example.

Philosophically everything is not connected in the here and now. Say I am playing pool on table one. If someone misses a shot on table 5, my game is not affected. So God could cause that missed shot without controlling the outcome of my game.

 

[Beoga]

Philosophically everything is not connected in the here and now. Say I am playing pool on table one. If someone misses a shot on table 5, my game is not affected. So God could cause that missed shot without controlling the outcome of my game.

i am sorry, but to me that is coming off as God could do something on a completly other world, but it would have no affect on this world and my life especially. whichy is true, but it isn't what is being discussed.

 

[unimportantbuthisnameis]

I'm just going to say that this appears to be a circular argument first. Then let me just say that God is working within the universe to achieve part of his will (the will of God is for all mankind to be saved) as by using events as well as man (both those who believe and those who do not). However the Calvinstic viewpoint that man has no choice is choosing to follow God is not found in the Scripture, but refuted by it.

 

[Van]

Hi, unimportant...
Your post is right on in my opinion.

 

[unimportantbuthisnameis]

Thank you Van, I tried to summarize your view the best I could