The IJ

[Jimlarmore]

Jim wrote:


As I earlier pointed out few of those instances can be said to be investigative. But aside from that in those instances people were the ones being informed of God's actions, such as the coming destruction of Sodom, the IJ is totally lacking any human involvement.

I don't think the IJ is for us, it's for the angels and the inhabitants of the unfallen worlds. Clearly God's pattern is to come and see before He acts in the Bible on major things.

But not really a salvation issue or doctrinally important.)

I disagree with the doctrinally important conclusion,,, as far as salvation is concerned I'm not really sure. The whole sanctuary system was about foreshadowing the plan of salvation. The temple/sanctuary in heaven is a pattern for the earthly temple/sanctuary. It still exists now and may for eternity. God's work is maticulous and complete and He never leaves anything important out. The day of atonement was vital in the Old testament times and served a function. If the heavenly is a pattern for the earthly we can conclude that there would be a similar ceremony in heaven. Hebrews confirms this, the timing (2300 days) is all we are really contending over.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

Ummm No. Job was never given an explanation of what happened to him..... Those nations who were wiped out by the COI, were they given a reason? Even the babies? Was Daniel given an explanation why he would live out his life in exile? Was John given an explanation why he was the last of the original 12 to die? There are many examples where your premise can be called into question.

I'm sorry but you need to read my narrative a little better. My giving of the text in Job was not to show how God told Job why He did what He did to Job. My texts that I gave in Job was to show that the Bible gives some evidence of unfallen worlds and subjects who come before the creator from those worlds as representatives. Read Job 1:6-7, here we see exactly what I was trying to say. Satan is portrayed there as the prince of the earth representing it.

As far as God not telling before He acts. I never said He did that. What I said was before He acted in a major way the pattern for Him was to come and investigate. Not that He needs to do that but for those who are near by , i.e. angels and the unfallen worlds who are not omniscient, He does this to show His divine fairness in judgement. Remember, the IJ is about judgement as was the day of atonement.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[StormyOne]

I'm sorry but you need to read my narrative a little better. My giving of the text in Job was not to show how God told Job why He did what He did to Job. My texts that I gave in Job was to show that the Bible gives some evidence of unfallen worlds and subjects who come before the creator from those worlds as representatives. Read Job 1:6-7, here we see exactly what I was trying to say. Satan is portrayed there as the prince of the earth representing it.

As far as God not telling before He acts. I never said He did that. What I said was before He acted in a major way the pattern for Him was to come and investigate. Not that He needs to do that but for those who are near by , i.e. angels and the unfallen worlds who are not omniscient, He does this to show His divine fairness in judgement. Remember, the IJ is about judgement as was the day of atonement.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

While I don't share your opinion about the IJ, thank you for clarifying your comments. Have a good day.

 

[Jimlarmore]

I found this to support my contention that we are all being observed by other beings in the universe.

1 Cor 4:9 " For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men" ( NIV )

God will be justified before all the created intelligences thru out the universe because He provided the plan of salvation for all mankind. Christ's death on the cross provided us a way to have complete atonement with God.

Rom 3:25-26 NIV

"God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in His blood. He did this to demonstrate His justice because His forbearance He had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished He did it to demonstrated His justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

The term "Theodicy" is defined as the vindication of God and His goodness and mercy despite evil in the world. The IJ is the final stamp on theodicy for all of the created intelligences.

Other texts to show the idea of theodicy are Ps 51:1-4, Rom 3:4, Eph 3:10, Rev 19:1-2.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jon0388g]

I found this to support my contention that we are all being observed by other beings in the universe.

1 Cor 4:9 " For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men" ( NIV )

God will be justified before all the created intelligences thru out the universe because He provided the plan of salvation for all mankind. Christ's death on the cross provided us a way to have complete atonement with God.

Rom 3:25-26 NIV

"God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in His blood. He did this to demonstrate His justice because His forbearance He had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished He did it to demonstrated His justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

The term "Theodicy" is defined as the vindication of God and His goodness and mercy despite evil in the world. The IJ is the final stamp on theodicy for all of the created intelligences.

Other texts to show the idea of theodicy are Ps 51:1-4, Rom 3:4, Eph 3:10, Rev 19:1-2.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Amen Jim.

For thus saith the Lord:

"..."It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord," declares the Lord God, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight." Ezekiel 36:22-24



Jon

 

[Sophia7]

My giving of the text in Job was not to show how God told Job why He did what He did to Job. My texts that I gave in Job was to show that the Bible gives some evidence of unfallen worlds and subjects who come before the creator from those worlds as representatives. Read Job 1:6-7, here we see exactly what I was trying to say. Satan is portrayed there as the prince of the earth representing it.

The Bible doesn't say that these "sons of God" who presented themselves before Him in the book of Job were representatives of unfallen worlds.

 

[Sophia7]

I found this to support my contention that we are all being observed by other beings in the universe.

1 Cor 4:9 " For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men" ( NIV )

God will be justified before all the created intelligences thru out the universe because He provided the plan of salvation for all mankind. Christ's death on the cross provided us a way to have complete atonement with God.

Rom 3:25-26 NIV

"God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in His blood. He did this to demonstrate His justice because His forbearance He had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished He did it to demonstrated His justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

The term "Theodicy" is defined as the vindication of God and His goodness and mercy despite evil in the world. The IJ is the final stamp on theodicy for all of the created intelligences.

Other texts to show the idea of theodicy are Ps 51:1-4, Rom 3:4, Eph 3:10, Rev 19:1-2.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

And what better way to vindicate Himself than to send His Son to die for us?

RO 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

RO 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
​

Anything that needed to be demonstrated to the angels was demonstrated then. Because of this, there will be no question in the final judgment that God's decisions are fair. There is no need for an investigative judgment to vindicate God's character.

 

[StormyOne]

well said Sophia.....

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I'm sorry but you need to read my narrative a little better. My giving of the text in Job was not to show how God told Job why He did what He did to Job. My texts that I gave in Job was to show that the Bible gives some evidence of unfallen worlds and subjects who come before the creator from those worlds as representatives. Read Job 1:6-7, here we see exactly what I was trying to say. Satan is portrayed there as the prince of the earth representing it.

Ah so you don't believe Ellen White then because she says those you refer to in Job are angels.

Good for you Jim, though I happen to agree with Ellen they are meant to be angels in the story it is nice to see you have the courage to contradict your prophet.

 

[djconklin]

The Bible doesn't say that these "sons of God" who presented themselves before Him in the book of Job were representatives of unfallen worlds.

By context they are. Satan was there claiming to represent the earth.

 

[djconklin]

Ah so you don't believe Ellen White then because she says those you refer to in Job are angels.

Could you tell us where she said that?

Never mind I found it (had to drop the brackets around the text):


"The Scriptures declare that upon one occasion, when the angels of God came to present themselves before the Lord, Satan came also among them, (Job 1:6) not to bow before the Eternal King, but to further his own malicious designs against the righteous." {GC (1888/1911): 518}

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I love pointing that out to the TSDA's and I get to do it so often too.

 

[Sophia7]

Satan was there claiming to represent the earth.

Satan said that he had come "from roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it" (Job 1:7). The text doesn't say that he claimed to represent the earth.

 

[Sophia7]

well said Sophia.....

Thanks.

 

[djconklin]

Satan said that he had come "from roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it" (Job 1:7). The text doesn't say that he claimed to represent the earth.

Sufficient unto the day.

 

[djconklin]

I love pointing that out to the TSDA's and I get to do it so often too.

And your point was?

 

[Jimlarmore]

Satan said that he had come "from roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it" (Job 1:7). The text doesn't say that he claimed to represent the earth.

Christ Himself said that satan was the "Prince of this world" in John 12:31. He said he was to be cast out, indicating he had a ruling position up to then. Also in the temptation of Christ satan offered up the whole world to
Christ if He would bow down and worship him. If he hadn't the rulership of what he was offering Christ would have told him that, instead He rebuked him with scripture.

The text in Job does not say that the sons of God were beings from unfallen worlds but it makes that intimation. I say this because most of the time when you read the phrase "Sons of God" it is humans that is being referenced to not angels. Angels are referenced as angels or "The angel of the Lord" etc. SDA's are not the only faith to think the texts in Job were talking about representatives from unfallen worlds.

Your conclusion that no IJ is neccesary is fine for your opinion but does not refute texts in the Bible that leads one to believe that it is a reality. Three times in Daniel we can see where there is the little horn, judgment, then God's kingdom, i.e. Dan 7:7-10, Dan 7:19-22 and Dan 7:24-27. In each of these we are led to know that this is speaking of end time events which is after the 1260 days but before the 2nd advent. I've come to think that the judgement scene in Dan 7 and the setting right the sanctuary in Dan 8:14 is the same event. Just as the bear in Dan 7 is another way of depicting the ram in Dan 8. If we couple all of this with Rev 10 and 11 we start to see a clearer picture arising. The IJ as we accept it as a denomination is not perfect we don't have it all completely correct but we are definetely in the ball park, ( some where in the vicinity of home base I think .

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

Lets look at the main points in Dan 2, 7, and 8 and then make some observations.

Dan 2 gives us the major kingdoms of the world, i.e.

a. Babylon
b. Medo-Persia
c. Greece
d. Historically we know Rome is next
e. Papal Rome
e. Supernatural destruction of all the kingdoms and the setting up of God's kingdom

Chapter 7

a. Babylon
b. Medo-Persia
c. Greece
d. Pagan Rome
e. Papal Rome
f. judgement in heaven
g. Second coming

Dan 8

a. Medo-Persia
b. Greece
c. Pagan Rome
d. Papal Rome
e. Setting right or cleansing of the sancturay

There are distinct parallels between all of these chapters. In Dan 7 the judgement scene comes after the thrones of the four major kingdoms were cast down and before the 2nd advent or destruction phase portrayed in the other chapters. In Dan 8 we see the setting aright the sanctuary ( cleansing ) taking place after papal Rome just as it does in Dan 7. This is why I am making the connection between the heavenly judgement scene in Dan 7 to the cleansing of the sancturay in Dan 8:14. The parallels are there, undoubtedly there.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

I would like to further discuss the significance between some hebrew words used in Dan 8 and 9. When Daniel was writting of the vision given him in Dan 8:1-2 he used the word "hazon" which is translated as a vision. In constrast when Daniel speaks of the 2300 evenings and mornings in Dan 8:14 he uses the word "mareh" which is also a word translated as a vision.

In Dan 8:26-27 we see him using this word again as he described getting sick and fainting. He said Gabriel was told to make him understand this "mareh" but that didn't happen right then but later on. Thus we see these two words used for vision "hazon" and "mareh".

In Dan 9 we see the same word "mareh" used again as Gabriel comes to visit him again.

Dan 9:21-23 " Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer even the man Gabriel whom I had seen in the vision ( hazon ) at the beginning..... touched me..... at the beginning of thy supplication the commandment came forth and I am come to show thee for thou are greatly beloved therefore understand the matter and consider the vision ( mareh )."

Here we clearly see that Gabriel is referring to the 2300 days part ( mareh ) of the vision ( hazon ). So we can see a very clear connection from the 2300 days in Dan 8:14 to the prophetic time line given in Dan 9:24-27 which also includes the messianic prophetic time line.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[reddogs]

Could you tell us where she said that?

Never mind I found it (had to drop the brackets around the text):


"The Scriptures declare that upon one occasion, when the angels of God came to present themselves before the Lord, Satan came also among them, (Job 1:6) not to bow before the Eternal King, but to further his own malicious designs against the righteous." {GC (1888/1911): 518}

Well that clears up a lot..