The ice age and the flood

[dad]

maybe the glacial theory is wrong

maybe water deposited it all

Controversy about the Glacial Theory

Well ice is frozen water.

 

[AV1611VET]

I wonder how they think we saw the stars which were for signs?

That's why I think the canopy would have been extremely thin.

In any event, I really don't care for the canopy theory anymore; I prefer to think a giant mass of water was timed to hit the earth at the end of the dispensation of Conscience.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well well, old Airpo is still around. I guess anything you don't agree with is a hi theory. Is the bible a hi book? Are you hi?

What is the HI theory?

 

[tobewan]

Having reviewed the previous 5 pages of comments, whether serious or not, when a 'cloud cover' is referred to, is that from the Valian Theory, by Isaac Newton Vale? I thought science rejected his theory - probably came to close to supporting the Biblical Flood.
Genesis is not the only place given us of earth's beginnings.
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
Job 38:9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
This last text #9 God refers to a "swaddlingband"as a cloudy garment for the earth. This has been ascribed to be the division of the waters above from the waters below. This could set up a 'greenhouse' effect globally, hence the Mastodon buried in the ice with green grass in his mouth, in an area now perpetually snow & ice bound. And a green house effect would allow for the spread of man in an ideal condition, until the flood. Perhaps the 'Land' was shaped like "Pangea" and was divided and moved during the flood.

When it comes to how the flood happened, one factor should be kept in mind (for those of faith), that is vs 17.
Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Gen 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
Gen 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
Gen 7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
Gen 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
Gen 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
Gen 7:18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
Gen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
Gen 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Gen 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Gen 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. At least in the area that the ARK floated, the water would not have been violent in action, considering all the animal and human cargo on board.

It has been suggested that the watery canopy began to burst at the poles, allowing a sudden blast of colder air from space to descend and freeze the pole areas.

The still-in-tack village on the shore of the pre-flood Black Sea, deprives the view of a great rush of water from the Poles, at least in that area, which the Eden Garden is considered to be near by, without any exact spot being known...yet.
As for covering all the 'mountains' - the same word is rendered 'high hills'. 15 cubits upward may not have been so high when covering 'high hills.'
Interestingly, there is still a river flowing from the Black Sea out to the Mediteraean Sea under neat waters that flow toward the Black Sea, thru the Bosphorus.

More later.

 

[tobewan]

Hey Mullist: Didn't know you are the DIRECTOR. You shouldn't read it then, if you don't care or understand it. In not reading it, you can feel good about yourself. You're problem, not mine.

 

[cupid dave]

As for covering all the 'mountains' - the same word is rendered 'high hills'. 15 cubits upward may not have been so high when covering 'high hills.'
Interestingly, there is still a river flowing from the Black Sea out to the Mediteraean Sea under neat waters that flow toward the Black Sea, thru the Bosphorus.

More later.

Consider that people would never have understood nor accepted the idaea, that 40 thousandyears of days and nights ago, modern man was the "waters" which "flooded" out of Africa and spread everywhere, even to the mountain tops.
So this take was couched in terms that could get the idea passed down.

That one assumption, that it was man 40 thousand years of flooding makes the story feasible and scientifically supportable.

 

[AirPo]

What is the HI theory?

My way of formalizing dad's observations.

It all started here -->

After that post I came up with a few laws like it's easy to make things up and never underestimate the power of the wave .

There's more if you're interested.

 

[Huram Abi]

Consider that people would never have understood nor accepted the idaea, that 40 thousandyears of days and nights ago, modern man was the "waters" which "flooded" out of Africa and spread everywhere, even to the mountain tops.
So this take was couched in terms that could get the idea passed down.

That one assumption, that it was man 40 thousand years of flooding makes the story feasible and scientifically supportable.

Except that science doesn't support it.

 

[dad]

What is the HI theory?

Sarcasm attempt by Airpo. Since he doesn't value a bible basis, and doesn't seem able or willing to discuss physics, he needed something.

So the question would arise, how thin. I see some creationists distance themselves from a canopy...


"
What arguments are doubtful, hence inadvisable to use?

• Canopy theory. This is not a direct teaching of Scripture, so there is no place for dogmatism. Also, no suitable model has been developed that holds sufficient water; but some creationists suggest a partial canopy may have been present. For CMI’s current opinion, see Noah’s Flood—Where did the water come from?."

Arguments we think creationists should NOT use

 

[dad]

Having reviewed the previous 5 pages of comments, whether serious or not, when a 'cloud cover' is referred to, is that from the Valian Theory, by Isaac Newton Vale? I thought science rejected his theory - probably came to close to supporting the Biblical Flood.

Probably because using physics, it would not be possible.

It has been suggested that the watery canopy began to burst at the poles, allowing a sudden blast of colder air from space to descend and freeze the pole areas.

Any proof space was cold at the time? It seems to me that the torrential pouring of water from the heavens was what the main thing was in the bible. Also of course the fountains of the deep. Looking at the evidence, It is possible that the Yucatan 'crater' may have been a former fount of the deep area. So I see no reason to limit founts from the pole area or to it.

The still-in-tack village on the shore of the pre-flood Black Sea, deprives the view of a great rush of water from the Poles, at least in that area, which the Eden Garden is considered to be near by, without any exact spot being known...yet.

Cute.

What proof do you have that this village was pre flood!? I bet it isn't.

As for covering all the 'mountains' - the same word is rendered 'high hills'. 15 cubits upward may not have been so high when covering 'high hills.'
Interestingly, there is still a river flowing from the Black Sea out to the Mediteraean Sea under neat waters that flow toward the Black Sea, thru the Bosphorus.

More later.

Maybe the mountains were not so high pre flood. That would do it for the connotation of the word. No need to try to make a mountain out of a mole hill in flood interpretation here.

 

[valkyree]

Reality is more than the Universe.

Existence is the god we must work to adapt to or become extinct.
So, no, the material universe and the spirit of all the beautiful Natural Laws which are inherent in it is still transcended by God, as the First Cause is a mystery, and the whole life experience unfathomable.

What I describe is called Pan-en-theism:


Simply put, in pantheism, God is the whole; however, in panentheism, the whole is in God.
In panentheism, God is viewed as the eternal animating force behind the universe.

How does Jesus fit into that picture?

 

[valkyree]

Having reviewed the previous 5 pages of comments, whether serious or not, when a 'cloud cover' is referred to, is that from the Valian Theory, by Isaac Newton Vale? I thought science rejected his theory - probably came to close to supporting the Biblical Flood.
Genesis is not the only place given us of earth's beginnings.
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
Job 38:9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
This last text #9 God refers to a "swaddlingband"as a cloudy garment for the earth. This has been ascribed to be the division of the waters above from the waters below. This could set up a 'greenhouse' effect globally, hence the Mastodon buried in the ice with green grass in his mouth, in an area now perpetually snow & ice bound. And a green house effect would allow for the spread of man in an ideal condition, until the flood. Perhaps the 'Land' was shaped like "Pangea" and was divided and moved during the flood.

When it comes to how the flood happened, one factor should be kept in mind (for those of faith), that is vs 17.
Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Gen 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
Gen 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
Gen 7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
Gen 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
Gen 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
Gen 7:18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
Gen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
Gen 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Gen 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Gen 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. At least in the area that the ARK floated, the water would not have been violent in action, considering all the animal and human cargo on board.

It has been suggested that the watery canopy began to burst at the poles, allowing a sudden blast of colder air from space to descend and freeze the pole areas.

The still-in-tack village on the shore of the pre-flood Black Sea, deprives the view of a great rush of water from the Poles, at least in that area, which the Eden Garden is considered to be near by, without any exact spot being known...yet.
As for covering all the 'mountains' - the same word is rendered 'high hills'. 15 cubits upward may not have been so high when covering 'high hills.'
Interestingly, there is still a river flowing from the Black Sea out to the Mediteraean Sea under neat waters that flow toward the Black Sea, thru the Bosphorus.

More later.

thanks tobewan - i really like that part of the book of Job

i will leave it here as a duplicate in case someone missed it

 

[Phred]

I do not know when or how the ice age started. I suspect that it was at the time of the flood.

There was no global flood. That's not opinion. It's fact.

Now if oceans of water came up in the founts of the deep,

Ridiculous. There are no "founts of the deep". No place for oceans of water to come up from.

as I mentioned also coming up could have been some materials that would tend to freeze it fast.

Since that's asinine the concept that it's a giant hairspray can under pressure so that when it came out it froze is also gibberish.

A modern example might be liquid nitrogen...etc. (of course we do not know what chemicals may have been used in the rapid ice)

We know it didn't happen.

In fact this is used to make snow.


"Observe the following snow-making stages:

1. Water is atomized using high-pressure compressed air
2. The water arrives at the snow gun and is pushed out the special nozzles at the end of the barrel
3. Liquid Nitrogen (which freezes at the amazingly low temperature of –196 degrees Celsius) is also passed through the snow gun
4. The extreme cold of the liquid nitrogen snap freezes the atomized water into powder-like snowflakes.

The secret formula?

One ton of liquid nitrogen + one ton of water = one ton of snow!"

~ Welcome to Snow City Singapore ~

And do you know the pressures required to keep that nitrogen liquid? No, you don't. It doesn't just sit around in that state.

If the ice age happened at the time of the flood or thereabouts,

There was no global flood. There have been many ice ages.

it would have had to be laid down fast. The fountains of the deep bringing up water and in some areas possibly some nitrogen or other chemical combination that resulted in a fast freeze. The founts then could be the 'nozzles' of the great snow making machine..and the layers with dust, and etc in them all rapidly laid down, except for the more recent ones, which would be in a seasonal way as we expect. ??

Any better ideas or some flaw in this concept?

It's entirely flawed. Must be some good pharmaceuticals you've got your hands on.

 

[cupid dave]

How does Jesus fit into that picture?

Christ is Truth, the image of the pahentheistic reality we are trapped within and must bow down to.

 

[dad]

There was no global flood. That's not opinion. It's fact.

Yes Phred, there certainly was a real worldwide flood.

Ridiculous. There are no "founts of the deep". No place for oceans of water to come up from.

Who said there are?? You are not qualified to say there were not at the time of the flood of course.

Since that's asinine the concept that it's a giant hairspray can under pressure so that when it came out it froze is also gibberish.

I agree. Sounds silly.

We know it didn't happen.

You know how to blow your nose, but not how the world that was at the time of the flood was.

And do you know the pressures required to keep that nitrogen liquid? No, you don't. It doesn't just sit around in that state.

The exact coolant mix we don't know. But I notice this

"
Nitrogenated beer

Nitrogen can be used instead of carbon dioxide to pressurize kegs of some beers, in particular, stouts and British ales, due to the smaller bubbles it produces, which make the dispensed beer smoother and headier. A pressure sensitive nitrogen capsule known commonly as a "widget" allows nitrogen charged beers to be packaged in cans and bottles.[25]
A mixture of nitrogen and carbon dioxide can be used for this purpose as well, to maintain the saturation of beer with carbon dioxide.[26]"


Nitrogen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hey, the founts more of less erupted, try shaking a nitro beer!

One would have to also look at how hot or cold the area was that the chemical was stored.

I see they even use it for fog machines...


"What are Liquid Nitrogen effects and how do they work?
LN2 effects work by manipulating conditions of temperature, pressure, and humidity to create areas which hold more water vapor than they are allowed to under normal atmospheric conditions. This is the same type of atmospheric manipulation which leads to the natural formation of clouds, foggy days, and mist formation over ponds and other bodies of water."
Interesting Products: FAQ


Considering that the ancient atmosphere was different, perhaps we ought to ask whether some part of it was less than now? Nitrogen for example..?

There was no global flood. There have been many ice ages.

Evidence for many ice ages?

 

[tobewan]

Here's a closing thought for tonight: I believe I'm actually getting to know some of you, and in a likable way, not all of course, but finding your bark isn't as bad as first thought. And appreciating the 'back up' from some more friendly, and realizing the limited extent of my education is not matching up to younger ones, resulting in learning a thing or two; maybe in spite of those who think we can't. The friends I'm making can understand when I say, The joy I find in Him, helps produce a living & loving faith, that no 'bones' of contention could ever do. Scoffers see fantasy, where we see strength and confidence, and trust, and the assurance that all He promised is and will be made true. Goodnight!

 

[cupid dave]

Evidence for many ice ages?

I'm not sure they call them Ice Ages, but as the Ice Age passed into the present warm spell, the weather would return to 35 below in EAurope and Asia, so Homo erectus would return to Africa.

As the warm spells would return, they would again migrate into the rest of the world.

It is during this time that the brain seems to have experienced a great expansion of its abilities.

We also have evidence that Homo erectus in Asia and Europe hybridized with African-Homo erectus which eventually lead to Neanderthal and even modern man.


"It is very likely that brain expansion was largely driven by the unstable climate of Eurasia, which required constant adaptations from their inhabitants. These selective pressures never existed in Africa. Africa instead acted a lot like a refugee area where larger populations could survive for extended periods of time.
Frequent hybridizations between advanced, but sparse, Eurasian Homo and refugee African Homo ensured that Homo evolved larger brains.
Robert Kunzig, "The Face of An Ancestral Child", Discover, December 1997, pp. 97, 100.

 

[dad]

I'm not sure they call them Ice Ages, but as the Ice Age passed into the present warm spell, the weather would return to 35 below in EAurope and Asia, so Homo erectus would return to Africa.

Nice story. I guess in other words some travel was involved and migrating etc after the flood and ice age.

As the warm spells would return, they would again migrate into the rest of the world.

Right, people moved back into the unfrozen parts.

One interesting thought is that the ice age seems likely to have been at the flood time (rather than later in Peleg's day, near the nature law change). Why? Because we know many creatures, adapted to the cold! That must mean it was back when evolving was rapid in the former state.

It is during this time that the brain seems to have experienced a great expansion of its abilities.

Naah, more likely just needed to be bigger. I suspect we may have used more of our brain before, so hey, why not be smaller!?

We also have evidence that Homo erectus in Asia and Europe hybridized with African-Homo erectus which eventually lead to Neanderthal and even modern man.

Maybe there is something to that. In other words Neanderthal was a person of color!? Or at least from a mixed marriage. So? As far as the coming from Africa business that has little to no meaning. Why? Because I suspect that the continents separated fast after the flood. (possibly something like 110 years after).

This means that the much touted migration was little more than a nice walk.

"It is very likely that brain expansion was largely driven by the unstable climate of Eurasia, which required constant adaptations from their inhabitants. These selective pressures never existed in Africa. Africa instead acted a lot like a refugee area where larger populations could survive for extended periods of time.

Hmm, are you sure that homo erectus thing was human? I'd need to look into that. Looking at this, I see reason to question...'across the lake'...


"Although no erectus fossils were found with the Turkana tools, a skull of that species was excavated last year in the same sediment level across the lake. This suggests that Homo erectus was responsible for these particular tools, .."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/01/science/01tools.html

I mean if I found a ring in a pat rat den, does that mean it was a metal worker?

I mean if it wasn't human, all we would have is..

'some monkeys migrated south after the flood' (apes, whatever). Let's stick to what is known.

 

[cupid dave]

double post

 

[cupid dave]

Nice story. I guess in other words some travel was involved and migrating etc after the flood and ice age.


Right, people moved back into the unfrozen parts.

One interesting thought is that the ice age seems likely to have been at the flood time (rather than later in Peleg's day, near the nature law change). Why? Because we know many creatures, adapted to the cold! That must mean it was back when evolving was rapid in the former state.

Naah, more likely just needed to be bigger. I suspect we may have used more of our brain before, so hey, why not be smaller!?


Maybe there is something to that. In other words Neanderthal was a person of color!? Or at least from a mixed marriage. So? As far as the coming from Africa business that has little to no meaning. Why? Because I suspect that the continents separated fast after the flood. (possibly something like 110 years after).

This means that the much touted migration was little more than a nice walk.

Hmm, are you sure that homo erectus thing was human? I'd need to look into that. Looking at this, I see reason to question...'across the lake'...


"Although no erectus fossils were found with the Turkana tools, a skull of that species was excavated last year in the same sediment level across the lake. This suggests that Homo erectus was responsible for these particular tools, .."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/01/science/01tools.html

I mean if I found a ring in a pat rat den, does that mean it was a metal worker?

I mean if it wasn't human, all we would have is..

'some monkeys migrated south after the flood' (apes, whatever). Let's stick to what is known.

They also found as transistional species too, which has been one of your issues with the ToE, right?


It was a partial skeleton of a 15-16 year old male Homo sapiens who lived about 30,000 years ago. He had a mix of old and new anatomical features. The skull had characteristics of both modern and archaic Homo sapiens.
This could be explained as the result of interbreeding with Neanderthals according to Erik Trinkaus of Washington University in St. Louis.

Alan Templeton, also of Washington University, reported that a computer-based analysis of 10 different human DNA sequences indicates that there has been interbreeding between people living in Asia, Europe, and Africa for at least 600,000 years

.

So my general thrust on this is to get science people to agree with you, that what the bible says nseems true, whether they see things thru their Science or you stick with medieval ideas.