The Humbug Thread

[MrJim]

The song is Santa Claus Lane sung by Gene Autry and also Elvis Presley

Well, here comes Santa Claus, here comes Santa Claus,
Riding down Santa Claus Lane.

He'll come around when the chimes ring out
It's Christmas morn again.
Peace on Earth will come to all
If we just follow the light
Let's give thanks to the Lord above,
'Cause Santa Claus comes tonight.

'Cause Santa Claus comes tonight

...never heard that verse before, but then never listened to much Autrey or paid much attention...sounds like.....evil....

 

[P_G]

OH BTW

Happy birthday Grinch lips!

 

[oliveplants]

Can't believe y'all have never heard "Here comes Santa Claus"... What do the stores play up there anyway?

The line above the one quoted goes a little like "Santa knows we're all God's children, and that makes everything right..."

 

[ZiSunka]

I did a little research and actually from a historical standpoint the best scholarly evidence would have been that the Jewish people would have celebrated the Macabeeian miracle of the the oil shortly after it happened durring the feast of dedication (which is what Hanukkah means BTW)

But it probably was not celebrated like folks do it today in every home etc it was more of a community type thing which we see Jesus doing in John Ch 10

BESIDES IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A LITTLE JOKE!!!!

PG

That's like directly opposite what the best scholarly evidence I learned and found about it. Makes me wonder about scholarship. I mean, scholars are paid to come up with new stuff. No one gets grants to rehash the same old facts, do they? So I guess scholars have to interpret things differently all the time, which means sooner or later, they are going to disagree significantly, and when that happens, who do you trust to have the real truth?

I guess I trust the rabbi and the Jewish authors of the books we used more than I trust something found on the internet. Webpages can contain any info at all, they don't get peer review and no one goes around making sure that they have the truth and only the truth. I could create a website that says Christians believe heaven is on the dark side of the moon, and some people would accept that. It all comes down to the same thing we said before, anything you read on the web needs to be confirmed by several good sources before it should be believed.

 

[mont974x4]

scholarlyness makes me all Scroogeish

 

[ZiSunka]

But it makes me happy. I like learning things.

 

[mont974x4]

I really do to, but dealing with some groups is, well, maddening. lol

Group A says 123 about xyz, and they are authoritative and trustful.

Group B, equally authoritative, refutes Group A's assertions.

lol

 

[CelticRose]

True scholarship is the ability to assess differing evidence, weigh it's worth & reach your own conclusion based on the evidence you have. When new evidence arrives, reassess. My twopence worth.

 

[MrJim]

Well, the date's been set, and next Sunday the tree gets set up. I tried holding it off another week but that didn't fly very far...

We were having a discussion in the car yesterday about trees since there were many cars around with trees in the trunks. I told the boys about how the trees can dry up and become kindling, so that at least one house in the area will burn up because the tree caught on fire.

I told them that was why FAKE trees were so popular, since FAKE trees are plastic. FAKE trees say Merry Christmas safer than real ones...

....

 

[mont974x4]

EEEEK!!! A Fake TREE!!!! Say it aint so!!! NOOOOOOOO!


Sorry, I had to have a fake tree when stationed overseas. It just didn't cut it.

 

[catlover]

True scholarship is the ability to assess differing evidence, weigh it's worth & reach your own conclusion based on the evidence you have. When new evidence arrives, reassess. My twopence worth.

Exactly.

 

[ZiSunka]

True scholarship is the ability to assess differing evidence, weigh it's worth & reach your own conclusion based on the evidence you have. When new evidence arrives, reassess. My twopence worth.

True scholarship also doesn't assume that the other person has never heard the information.

I called the rabbi at the synagogue across the street from my church, and he confirmed that Hanukkah is a recent celebration in the history of Judaism, and many orthodox and conservative Jews still refuse to celebrate Hanukkah because it isn't a festival ordained by God. The most conservative sects see Hanukkah as a holiday invented to compete with Christmas in the 1850s which confirms the info I got at the other syngogue in Cleveland.

He said he is perfectly aware that some translations of the NT use the word Hanukkah in place of Festival of Dedication, but that festival is related to Solomon's temple and not Herod's temple. He said he is aware of the books by Christians who ascert that Christ celebrated Hanukkah, and although he is amused by the attempts to attract Jews by relating Hanukkah to Jesus, the festival Jesus celebrated has no relation to modern Hanukkah.

Further, he said the brief history of ancient Hanukkah is in question by Judaic scholars because the only record of it is from Christian sources. Although there are many writings of Jewish philosophers and historians from those days, not one of the records a festival even vaguely similar to Hanukkah. Only the early Christian writings record any kind of festival of lights or rededication of the temple. Even the setting the dates of the celebration dates from the 19th century and the earliest Jewish writings of it call for the dates to be between St Nicholas day and Christmas day, two very Christian holidays.

He himself believes the scholarship that Hanukkah is a holiday invented to give Jews a uniquely Jewish holiday to celebrate around Christmas time so they won't be tempted to water down their Jewishness by celebrating Christian holidays.

He called it the most artificial holiday in the Jewish calendar.

So, which is more trustworthy regarding a Jewish holiday, a dozen Jewish and early Christian sources, or two or three modern Christian writers?

 

[ZiSunka]

Well, the date's been set, and next Sunday the tree gets set up. I tried holding it off another week but that didn't fly very far...

We were having a discussion in the car yesterday about trees since there were many cars around with trees in the trunks. I told the boys about how the trees can dry up and become kindling, so that at least one house in the area will burn up because the tree caught on fire.

I told them that was why FAKE trees were so popular, since FAKE trees are plastic. FAKE trees say Merry Christmas safer than real ones...

....

I set up a plastic buddha at my house, and put it in a place of honor right in front of the window where everyone can see it, then put strings of lights all around it and decorate it up with tinsel and beautiful pieces of hand-blown glass and put the presents under it.

I want everyone to know I'm a Christian, so I set a nativity set under it down on the floor. Even though you can't see it from the window, I'm sure it let's everyone understand that my buddha is really a decoration celebrating the birth of Jesus, and it has nothing to do with buddha. I mean, sure buddha is a symbol of a god from another religion, but I'm using it as a Christmas decoration, so it isn't like I'm worshipping buddha or sending a mixed message about my beliefs or anything.

 

[brother daniel]

I set up a plastic buddha at my house, and put it in a place of honor right in front of the window where everyone can see it, then put strings of lights all around it and decorate it up with tinsel and beautiful pieces of hand-blown glass and put the presents under it.

I want everyone to know I'm a Christian, so I set a nativity set under it down on the floor. Even though you can't see it from the window, I'm sure it let's everyone understand that my buddha is really a decoration celebrating the birth of Jesus, and it has nothing to do with buddha. I mean, sure buddha is a symbol of a god from another religion, but I'm using it as a Christmas decoration, so it isn't like I'm worshipping buddha or sending a mixed message about my beliefs or anything.

No matter what your personal good intent, it is a mixed message you are sending. You are mixing icons or metaphors neither which has anything to do with the teachings of Jesus himself.

But in Christ you do have this liberty so have a merry Christmas.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[oliveplants]

I set up a plastic buddha at my house, and put it in a place of honor right in front of the window where everyone can see it, then put strings of lights all around it and decorate it up with tinsel and beautiful pieces of hand-blown glass and put the presents under it.

I want everyone to know I'm a Christian, so I set a nativity set under it down on the floor. Even though you can't see it from the window, I'm sure it let's everyone understand that my buddha is really a decoration celebrating the birth of Jesus, and it has nothing to do with buddha. I mean, sure buddha is a symbol of a god from another religion, but I'm using it as a Christmas decoration, so it isn't like I'm worshipping buddha or sending a mixed message about my beliefs or anything.

Laughing so hard I have to wipe my eyes before I can post!

Will have to share this with DH. We aren't having a tree this year because there "isn't enough room" in our single wide trailer...but I kinda hope we get in the habit of doing without it.

 

[oliveplants]

My humbug of the day:

Stores that advertise the lowest prices of the year, 5 days only, open early, come and get it!!! ANd when you get there they have ONE employee who is trying to help some old fart find a hardback version of the book in the flyer, so you wait nicely for 5 minutes, but they aren't any closer to finding the book, and you realize that those 5 minutes plus the 5 you spent finding your stuff equals too long to leave the children alone in the car (which you had to do because the same said store doesn't have shopping carts in which to place the children, and is too full of breakables to let them run loose). So you have to leave your desired purchases on the table and go home empty handed.

BAH HUMBUG

 

[MrJim]

My humbug of the day:

Stores that advertise the lowest prices of the year, 5 days only, open early, come and get it!!! ANd when you get there they have ONE employee who is trying to help some old fart find a hardback version of the book in the flyer, so you wait nicely for 5 minutes, but they aren't any closer to finding the book, and you realize that those 5 minutes plus the 5 you spent finding your stuff equals too long to leave the children alone in the car (which you had to do because the same said store doesn't have shopping carts in which to place the children, and is too full of breakables to let them run loose). So you have to leave your desired purchases on the table and go home empty handed.

BAH HUMBUG

Yeah the more I shop the more I think doing it at Amazon is better...

 

[MrJim]

I set up a plastic buddha at my house, and put it in a place of honor right in front of the window where everyone can see it, then put strings of lights all around it and decorate it up with tinsel and beautiful pieces of hand-blown glass and put the presents under it.

I want everyone to know I'm a Christian, so I set a nativity set under it down on the floor. Even though you can't see it from the window, I'm sure it let's everyone understand that my buddha is really a decoration celebrating the birth of Jesus, and it has nothing to do with buddha. I mean, sure buddha is a symbol of a god from another religion, but I'm using it as a Christmas decoration, so it isn't like I'm worshipping buddha or sending a mixed message about my beliefs or anything.

 

[Hadassah]

So, which is more trustworthy regarding a Jewish holiday, a dozen Jewish and early Christian sources, or two or three modern Christian writers?

I have a question, from another bah-humbugger...

Was this researched with Rabbinic writings and history hand in hand? (there is some really cool stuff in the Talmud about it)

Also, which branch of Judaism was being studied under?

A lot of things come into play. I've been studing Hanukkah/Dedication for some time now, and find that what P_G said to be quite accurate... and I studied under different scholarship than him.


The holiday was called Hanukkah meaning "dedication" because it marks the re-dedication of the Temple after its desecration under
Antiochus.

Also, even the Christian commentators well versed in Rabbinic writings (middle ages forward) speak to the feast of dedication being that of Hanukkah.

Feast of the dedication (ἐγκαίνι&#945 The word signifies renewal, from καινός, new, fresh.

I'm just confused that's all.



And for my bah- humbug:

Christmas Music in July, teased again in August, September and October, beginning the week OF Thanksgiving, no- not the day after... the Sunday OF Thanksgiving week!

Christmas items entering as Halloween comes out

Uhm... everything!

Not to be rude or anything, but I can't even get a repreive at work from it

Instead of grace when you say "I don't celebrate it, but thank you" (or something similar but worded nicer), you somehow find yourself in a long debate with others now involved and embarrassment all around, why you do not celebrate it.

Oh yeah, and Tinsel.

 

[ZiSunka]

I don't know how much more I need to defend what I said, but the one rabbi is orthodox and the other one is conservative.

But I bet no matter what I would have answered, you would find a way to make them out to be oddballs. If I say orthodox and conservative, you will say, "Oh, those guys don't like the commercialism of hanukkah so they deny its history" and if I said reformed you would say, "Oh, those guys are so liberal they don't use the traditional writings as authority so they deny its history."

If even Jews don't agree on the practice and origins of hanukkah, to doesn't make much sense to keep arguing over it. My rabbis said hanukkah is a 19th century thing, your rabbi said it's from the middle ages, PGs rabbi said it's from ancient times. I've read half a dozen books on the subject that say hanukkah was a minor event in the Jewish calendar not even celebrated by most Jews until the 19th century when Christmas became a big deal (before the 19th century, even Christians didn't make a big deal out of Christmas. Most business didn't close and people exchanged small gifts at the dinner table, if they exchanged gifts at all), and that when hanukkah started to be celebrated by the larger Jewish community, it was contraversial because it wasn't a "sacred holiday ordained by God" and there was a lot of debate (I've read many of the letters rabbis and scholars wrote to each other on the subject) about whether or not a big deal should be made out of a holiday whose only existence came from Christian sources.

But you win Menno. Now I feel like a humbug, too.

I had no idea that I was opening up a subject that would invite non-anabaptists to come into our forum to break the rules about debating.

Education and scholarship is definitely not something prized and valued around here. People who are educated should just keep silent and let misinformation flourish in the name of political correctness, I guess.

Okay, here's the politically correct thing to say, so we can end this debate:

"Hanukkah is one of the most important holidays on the Jewish calendars and always has been, scholars agree that Jews everywhere gave gifts on 8 nights throughout the ages and Jesus lit 8 candles every december in celebration of Hanukkah, as we know it today."

So enough already!