The 'hook up' culture

[Chajara]

Actually, long term cohabitation is NOT at all like marriage. Socioligal surveys show that people act differently if they cohabitate than if married. Women are more likely to be abused if cohabitating than if married. Cohabiting couples that marry are far more likely to divorce than married couples who never cohabited.

I don't know anything about the general trend, but I'm not being abused, unless you count being somewhat spoiled as abuse. Also, right now my boyfriend and I are paying bills, saving money up, taking care of our cats, doing housework, working full time, and playing video games in our spare time. After we're married we're going to do all that plus... I'll introduce myself as Mrs. (boyfriend's last name) instead of my maiden name. Big whoop. Oh, and I guess we'll do our taxes differently and we'll probably consolidate our student loans all together.

Maybe other couples do things way differently than us, but I don't see how getting a marriage certificate somehow changes the daily grind. When we're married we're going to keep on building our life together exactly the same way we are now, until we're eventually at the point where starting a family comes into play. Also, splitting up at this point in our lives would be almost like a divorce: While there may be no alimony, we have lots of stuff we've accumulated during our year and a half spent in this little apartment, including a cat. A split up at this point would not be simple and painless, contrary to what people like to say about people who cohabitate. We actually joked about this today while figuring out lunch and watching our cat lounge in the kitchen window, and I suggested that we'd probably have to set up visitation on weekends or something because we both love that goofy cat so much.

My point is, if you're in a really serious relationship and you think getting married is a good idea for the two of you, living together should present no problems (save from heckling from family over when you're going to have a wedding). If you're going to have problems, which all couples do even if they're minor ones, you might as well either work them out early on like we did.

 

[GeratTzedek]

Just becaue you don't see it, and just because you claim to be a statistical deviation, doesn't alter the numbers.

 

[Chajara]

Just becaue you don't see it, and just because you claim to be a statistical deviation, doesn't alter the numbers.

Then everyone else is apparently doing it wrong.

 

[GeratTzedek]

Oh puhleeze. Not everyone is cohabiting. Don't presume to represent everyone.

The man who is courting me isn't even holding my hand. His idea of a "date" is sitting across from me at the Rabbi's house at Shabbat table.

 

[Chajara]

Oh puhleeze. Not everyone is cohabiting. Don't presume to represent everyone.

The man who is courting me isn't even holding my hand. His idea of a "date" is sitting across from me at the Rabbi's house at Shabbat table.

My previous comment was tongue-in-cheek.

And we are very obviously two different people, because I wouldn't be able to consider a relationship anything more than a friendship if we weren't at least showing some sort of physical affection. That's likely due to the fact that I'm a very touchy-feely sort, and I understand not everyone craves touch like I do. Still, I'd be very, very wary of marrying a man who I hadn't even held hands with, and had only gone on a dates in public with lots of people around to hear our conversations. I just wouldn't be able to bond with him, I wouldn't be able to fall in love. The concept is foreign to me. If you two are managing okay and it's all working out for you, then that's wonderful though.

Out of curiosity, is there a reason you don't hold hands? Hand-holding is hardly a sexual gesture I'd think, so I'm at a loss for why you wouldn't allow it.

Edit to add: I won't be responding tonight as I have work at 6:15 AM and really need to get to bed. I'll check back before I catch the bus in the AM. Don't want to seem rude, is all.

 

[GeratTzedek]

It's not that I think there is anything immoral about holding hands or kissing or whatever. But what is perfectly okay for others is forbidden for me. In Orthodox Judaism, we don't touch til our wedding day. I know you are thinking that's a recipe for disaster, but the statistics show the opposite: a high rate of satisfaction and a 3% divorce rate.

A lot of it has to do with the fact that we are simply looking for something quite different in marriage. I'm not looking for some kind of soul mate that is my perfect match -- that kind of thinking is bound to leave me disappointed. Rather, I'm looking for someone who shares my religious values who is observant with whom I can set up a Jewish home and raise Jewish kids. Family purity law gives our lives a natural rhythm that keeps us from boredom. I light candles and he says kiddush: I have my responsibilities and he has his. Together we make something truly beautiful that is pleasing to G-d and a safe and sane environment for raising the children. The focus isn't on me, but on family.

In my first marraige, I remember on my wedding night feeling like there was nothing special about it, and I realized I had cheated myself, robbed myself. It was a bitter, bitter feeling. I have a second chance, and I have no intention of blowing it.

I am also a touchy feely person. But it is precisely because I am a sensitive feeler that I have been so hurt and have learned that as much as chastity stinks, it's still preferable to promiscuity. It would have been better if I had learned the easy way, by learning from the wisdom of others. But... at least I learned the hard way.

Baruch Hashem, He is merciful and gracious, forgiving all who turn to him. Who is a G-d like You, O Lord? You cast our sins into the sea and remember them no more.

 

[quatona]

I don't think it takes a society filled with no one but rocket scientists to see that sexual behavior leads to incredible emotional pain and abandoned children and often to violence.

A lot of behaviours have that potential to have incredible emotional pain as a result.
For the rest of the claims: I don´t see the causal connection. When asking a question I really don´t care whether it takes a society of rocket scientists to know the answer or not, and we can even work from the assumption that I am completely dense. However, when asking it I am interested in it to be explained to me, and not in hearing affirmations how the answer is obvious.

Do you realize that there is no murder among the Eskimos except with regards to stealing another man's woman?

I didn´t know that? Do you realize that cannibals eat other humans?
What sort of argument or answer is this?
'Why do many people do it?' - 'Do you realize that many people do it?'

So societies erect various fences around sex to protect people.

Yes, I realize that. It is the subject of my questions, after all.

Such fences are almost always connected to the local religion, as religion is what is in charge of protecting people from each other through rituals and traditions.

I have observed a frequent link between religion and restrictive moral ideas about sexuality, too.
I´m not connected to the local religion, though, and where I live the local religions aren´t the great arbiters of sexual morality anymore, anyways.

Sex is thought of as "sacred" because it is *powerful.*

I suspect that it´s rather the other way round.

It can heal, and it can destroy.

Even more so if you built fences around it and declare it sacred. That´s what I meant when I spoke of self fulfilling prophecy and self confirming creeds in an earlier post.

I mean I understand that people tend to avoid things that trigger strong negative emotions, and that they tend to raise fences around the issue, and that building fences around that which tends to trigger their strong negative emotions. I am, however, not convinced that negative emotions are good advice givers. I am also not convinced that building fences around negatively emotionally charged issues is an effective solution. In my observation this strategy rather tends to reinforce and aggravate the problem.
I do understand that something you consider sacred becomes power over you merely by virtue of it being considered sacred.

Now, how they deal with their negative emotions is everybody´s personal business, of course.

It must not be treated casually, or it will rush over your life like a flashflood.

Doesn´t match my personal experience.

 

[sidhe]

GerTzeDek:

On the 3% divorce rate...have a source for that? I'll hit my Limitless Resources once I get to work, but just a cursory search indicates that among the Hasidic community the divorce rate is around 10%, and 25% in the Orthodox community overall.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=173889

Those of you into reputable research will be amused by the reaction of the questioner. He refuses both answers provided because they do not support his claim of a 2% Orthodox divorce rate...classic using the map as the territory type behavior.

ETA: I found the 3% source...or at least where it came from originally. The Orthodox Union said there was a 3% divorce rate among Orthodox Jews at one time. However, in 2000, they seemed to acknowledge that the rate was considerably higher, and recommended premarital counseling for couples.

They don't note what the rate is, but based on the former research, it hovers around 25%...higher than most other religious groups, except Mainline Protestants and Non-Denominational Evangelicals.

 

[Chajara]

Thanks for your honest answer, GerTzedek. Seems we have something in common at least: My emphasis is on family too, not just me. I've always wanted to be a wife and mother, and I've had several relationships that I took very seriously, but they ultimately failed because the guy wasn't as into it as I was (even if he thought he was for a while), or because I realized after the initial lovey-dovey crap wore off that he'd make a terrible husband or father.

Once I got together with the guy I'm with now, I told him upfront before we even met in person that I'm in my next relationship for life, and that I did not want another failure, and that I wasn't going to do the while relationship thing again until I was absolutely certain I was making a good choice. I had goals and I wanted them met. I wanted to meet my future husband and start working toward a life together. He expressed desire for the same, since he was sick of failed relationships as well. We were cautious at first but it didn't take long before we realized that we just get along too well and have such similar goals that a relationship would be ideal. The rest is history, I suppose.

Granted, I know very few people who are as strictly monogamous as I am. I've never once had a casual relationship in my life, I always took it very seriously even with my first boyfriend back when I was 15 (looking back I wonder what I was thinking, but live and learn).
http://christianforums.com/member.php?u=198339

 

[GeratTzedek]

Chajara:

I wish you and yours the very very best of luck. May you have a long and happy life together and be blessed with children.

 

[GeratTzedek]

GerTzeDek:

On the 3% divorce rate...have a source for that? I'll hit my Limitless Resources once I get to work, but just a cursory search indicates that among the Hasidic community the divorce rate is around 10%, and 25% in the Orthodox community overall.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=173889

Those of you into reputable research will be amused by the reaction of the questioner. He refuses both answers provided because they do not support his claim of a 2% Orthodox divorce rate...classic using the map as the territory type behavior.

ETA: I found the 3% source...or at least where it came from originally. The Orthodox Union said there was a 3% divorce rate among Orthodox Jews at one time. However, in 2000, they seemed to acknowledge that the rate was considerably higher, and recommended premarital counseling for couples.

They don't note what the rate is, but based on the former research, it hovers around 25%...higher than most other religious groups, except Mainline Protestants and Non-Denominational Evangelicals.

The artical I read came out in one of the Jewish journals last month, and presented the data as NEW, like "this just in." It could be they were rehashing old stuff, but if so, they were being dishonest. It is more likely that new studies were done.

 

[sidhe]

The artical I read came out in one of the Jewish journals last month, and presented the data as NEW, like "this just in." It could be they were rehashing old stuff, but if so, they were being dishonest. It is more likely that new studies were done.

Could you give me the title, authors, and such when you get the chance, and if they referenced any sources what they were?

Like I said, I don't have all my research tools here, but I'm not finding any published study showing divorce rates in the Orthodox community being any lower than in the world at large.

 

[LittleNipper]

I've been hearing a lot about this 'hook up' culture, especially from conservatives who believe that it is harmful to women. While I agree with them that this culture exists (like on college campuses and such) I don't agree that it's entirely harmful.

So what's the 'hook up' culture? Apparently it can be anything from just making out to have casual sex. What it comes down to is that people aren't dating as much anymore, but just having casual sex which isn't supposed to lead to a long term relationship.

I think this is also apart of people having sexual relationships with no emotional attachments whatsoever.

Here's how I feel about it. I don't find anything wrong with people just engaging in casual sex (yes of course because I'm immoral feminist ). But the truth is, it seems critics believes that people aren't just aren't looking for relationships anymore. That's not the case, perhaps people aren't ready to be in long term relationships. Perhaps some people are just looking for something that's more casual. I myself was in a relationship for a year and half and it was wonderful. I have also been in sexual relationships as well, and have not suffered emotionally as a result.

So how do you feel about the 'hook up' culture? Do you think it's good or bad? It is a gray area?

Well, when I was in school they had a name for a guy who would go to bed with anyone -------------- A CREEP!
And, any girl who was capable of the same and didn't do it for money was just plan stupid.

 

[sidhe]

After hitting the research tools concerning the 3% divorce rate in Orthodox Judaism...

It's frequently reported by Hasidic communities that they have a divorce rate ranging between 2-6%. However, there are no actual studies that support this, and there's no study on Orthodox Jews and divorce rates. The Jewish community overall divorces at a rate of around 30%.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

 

[Chajara]

Chajara:

I wish you and yours the very very best of luck. May you have a long and happy life together and be blessed with children.

Thanks, the same to you. It's too bad that we've got to wait so long to start in with the babies, but so it goes. More time to stash away a nest egg and get some experience with kids I suppose (for him I mean, I grew up in a large family full of kids). I'd love to have one now if I could, though.

 

[quatona]

Well, when I was in school they had a name for a guy who would go to bed with anyone -------------- A CREEP!

Yes, there´s a lot of name calling going on on schoolyards.