The Homosexuality Issue

[bekkilyn]

If it's an abomination for Jews, it is an abomination for all of us.

Have you read Romans 14?

 

[bekkilyn]

What about if congregations had the choice in what kind of pastor they got?

In the ELCA, we call our own pastors. Though we have anti-discrimination rules in our constitution, most congregations, for instance, still call predominantly men to serve as pastors. And congregations that do not feel called to have gay pastors are not forced to do so.

One thing I love about the United Methodist Church is that it does a lot to try to avoid rampant discrimination at the local level, which is what allowing local churches to just choose their own pastors would do. Our bishops/district superintendents appoint pastors to the local churches, but most would try to avoid matching a super conservative congregation to a super liberal pastor.

 

[dreadnought]

What about if congregations had the choice in what kind of pastor they got?

In the ELCA, we call our own pastors. Though we have anti-discrimination rules in our constitution, most congregations, for instance, still call predominantly men to serve as pastors. And congregations that do not feel called to have gay pastors are not forced to do so.

We get whoever the bishop sends us, I think.

 

[dreadnought]

Have you read Romans 14?

Yes.

 

[bekkilyn]

Yes.

How do you interpret it?

 

[dreadnought]

How do you interpret it?

It's been quite a while since I read it. What does it say?

 

[bekkilyn]

It's been quite a while since I read it. What does it say?

Romans 14 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
Do Not Judge Another
14 Welcome those who are weak in faith, but not for the purpose of quarreling over opinions. 2 Some believe in eating anything, while the weak eat only vegetables. 3 Those who eat must not despise those who abstain, and those who abstain must not pass judgment on those who eat; for God has welcomed them. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on servants of another? It is before their own lord that they stand or fall. And they will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 Some judge one day to be better than another, while others judge all days to be alike. Let all be fully convinced in their own minds. 6 Those who observe the day, observe it in honor of the Lord. Also those who eat, eat in honor of the Lord, since they give thanks to God; while those who abstain, abstain in honor of the Lord and give thanks to God.

7 We do not live to ourselves, and we do not die to ourselves. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, so that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother or sister? Or you, why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written,

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall give praise to God.”

12 So then, each of us will be accountable to God.

Do Not Make Another Stumble
13 Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is being injured by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. Do not let what you eat cause the ruin of one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let your good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 The one who thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and has human approval. 19 Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. 20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for you to make others fall by what you eat; 21 it is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that makes your brother or sister stumble. 22 The faith that you have, have as your own conviction before God. Blessed are those who have no reason to condemn themselves because of what they approve. 23 But those who have doubts are condemned if they eat, because they do not act from faith; for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Footnotes:

1. Romans 14:1 Or conviction
2. Romans 14:4 Other ancient authorities read for God
3. Romans 14:10 Gk brother
4. Romans 14:10 Gk brother
5. Romans 14:10 Other ancient authorities read of Christ
6. Romans 14:11 Or confess
7. Romans 14:12 Other ancient authorities lack to God
8. Romans 14:13 Gk of a brother
9. Romans 14:15 Gk brother
10. Romans 14:21 Gk brother
11. Romans 14:21 Other ancient authorities add or be upset or be weakened
12. Romans 14:23 Or conviction
13. Romans 14:23 Or conviction
14. Romans 14:23 Other authorities, some ancient, add here 16.25–27

 

[NBB]

You are doing a favor to someone if you correct them and the bible says 'and it shall cover many faults'.
We all agree the plain interpretation of the bible says homosexuality is a sin? Are not gays adding to the bible meanings that in reality doesn't say anything like they say it does?
Should gay advocates change our bibles? i hope not.

 

[dreadnought]

Romans 14 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
Do Not Judge Another
14 Welcome those who are weak in faith, but not for the purpose of quarreling over opinions. 2 Some believe in eating anything, while the weak eat only vegetables. 3 Those who eat must not despise those who abstain, and those who abstain must not pass judgment on those who eat; for God has welcomed them. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on servants of another? It is before their own lord that they stand or fall. And they will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 Some judge one day to be better than another, while others judge all days to be alike. Let all be fully convinced in their own minds. 6 Those who observe the day, observe it in honor of the Lord. Also those who eat, eat in honor of the Lord, since they give thanks to God; while those who abstain, abstain in honor of the Lord and give thanks to God.

7 We do not live to ourselves, and we do not die to ourselves. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, so that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother or sister? Or you, why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written,

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall give praise to God.”

12 So then, each of us will be accountable to God.

Do Not Make Another Stumble
13 Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is being injured by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. Do not let what you eat cause the ruin of one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let your good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 The one who thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and has human approval. 19 Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. 20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for you to make others fall by what you eat; 21 it is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that makes your brother or sister stumble. 22 The faith that you have, have as your own conviction before God. Blessed are those who have no reason to condemn themselves because of what they approve. 23 But those who have doubts are condemned if they eat, because they do not act from faith; for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Footnotes:

1. Romans 14:1 Or conviction
2. Romans 14:4 Other ancient authorities read for God
3. Romans 14:10 Gk brother
4. Romans 14:10 Gk brother
5. Romans 14:10 Other ancient authorities read of Christ
6. Romans 14:11 Or confess
7. Romans 14:12 Other ancient authorities lack to God
8. Romans 14:13 Gk of a brother
9. Romans 14:15 Gk brother
10. Romans 14:21 Gk brother
11. Romans 14:21 Other ancient authorities add or be upset or be weakened
12. Romans 14:23 Or conviction
13. Romans 14:23 Or conviction
14. Romans 14:23 Other authorities, some ancient, add here 16.25–27

That's a lot of reading for an impatient old man like me. Is there some verse you wanted me to look at?

I've made my position clear, I think: The Lord has made it clear that homosexuality is a sin, so I wish our pastors would stop saying it isn't. At the same time, I have no problem welcoming homosexuals into the church. Do you disagree with my view?

 

[dreadnought]

You are doing a favor to someone if you correct them and the bible says 'and it shall cover many faults'.
We all agree the plain interpretation of the bible says homosexuality is a sin? Are not gays adding to the bible meanings that in reality doesn't say anything like they say it does?
Should gay advocates change our bibles? i hope not.

Homosexual advocates ignore what the Lord and the Bible say about homosexuality.

Yes, preachers should preach that sexual chastity is an important ingredient in our quest for heaven, but how many of them are chaste enough to understand that?

 

[NBB]

Homosexual advocates ignore what the Lord and the Bible say about homosexuality.

Yes, preachers should preach that sexual chastity is an important ingredient in our quest for heaven, but how many of them are chaste enough to understand that?

What i mean is a lot of people that says being gay is not a sin say that the bible does not condemn it making weird interpretations of it.

 

[dreadnought]

What i mean is a lot of people that says being gay is not a sin say that the bible does not condemn it making weird interpretations of it.

Yes, weird. The Lord said homosexuality is an abomination (Lev 18:22), so homosexual advocates argue the Lord said lots of things are abominations, as if, somehow, that made homosexuality okay.

 

[NBB]

Yes, weird. The Lord said homosexuality is an abomination (Lev 18:22), so homosexual advocates argue the Lord said lots of things are abominations, as if, somehow, that made homosexuality okay.

If that is not enough you have romans, timothy and corhintians too.

 

[dreadnought]

If that is not enough you have romans, timothy and corhintians too.

Nobody in the Bible says anything nice about homosexuality, that I am aware of.

 

[bekkilyn]

That's a lot of reading for an impatient old man like me. Is there some verse you wanted me to look at?

I've made my position clear, I think: The Lord has made it clear that homosexuality is a sin, so I wish our pastors would stop saying it isn't. At the same time, I have no problem welcoming homosexuals into the church. Do you disagree with my view?

One chapter of God's written word is a lot of reading? Even when it directly pertains to your claim that "if something is an abomination for the Jews, it is also an abomination for us"?

I could make the claim that this picture is clearly of an old woman...and I'd be wrong.

Couldn't get the image to work, but it's here: https://ermiliablog.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/old-woman-yong-woman-optical-illusion.jpg

 

[dreadnought]

One chapter of God's written word is a lot of reading? Even when it directly pertains to your claim that "if something is an abomination for the Jews, it is also an abomination for us"?

I could make the claim that this picture is clearly of an old woman...and I'd be wrong.

Couldn't get the image to work, but it's here: https://ermiliablog.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/old-woman-yong-woman-optical-illusion.jpg

If you don't think homosexuality is an abomination, I would encourage you to think again.

 

[bekkilyn]

If you don't think homosexuality is an abomination, I would encourage you to think again.

If you don't think it's even more important to study and meditate on God's word, then you're going to run into a lot more difficulty going forward than being unable to effectively back up an argument over a relatively minor issue.

 

[dreadnought]

If you don't think it's even more important to study and meditate on God's word, then you're going to run into a lot more difficulty going forward than being unable to effectively back up an argument over a relatively minor issue.

Lust isn't the answer.

 

[bekkilyn]

Lust isn't the answer.

Which applies equally to heterosexuals and every other type of orientation out there. People are so concerned about the 4% or so people who are homosexual in our society, but seem to overlook the rest of the 94% of the population and all of the infidelity, pre-marital sex, divorce rate through the roof, abandoned children and spouses, etc. Yet, no one blinks an eye over a pastor who has been divorced and remarried three or four times. If we're going to censure people based on cherry-picking verses all over the bible, we might at least be consistent about it.

It is by far more disturbing to me just how rarely people actually read and study scripture. Being a Sunday (or Saturday in some cases) Christian isn't enough to grow and mature in faith.

 

[Dave-W]

but seem to overlook the rest of the 94% of the population and all of the infidelity, pre-marital sex, divorce rate through the roof, abandoned children and spouses, etc. Yet, no one blinks an eye over a pastor who has been divorced and remarried three or four times.

Indeed. While I consider the gay issue to be important, it is only a small fraction of the hetero infractions.

no one blinks an eye over a pastor who has been divorced and remarried three or four times.

Yeah - that one gets me very angry.

"Husband of one wife"

It is by far more disturbing to me just how rarely people actually read and study scripture. Being a Sunday (or Saturday in some cases) Christian isn't enough to grow and mature in faith.

Indeed. There seems to be some kind of assumption of "instant maturity."