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Honestly Drew, your desperate efforts to divert talk away from the topic of examining the holiness movement AND the organizations that are directly related to her are pretty transparent.
hi Drew...
how many Holiness believers do you know?
Note what your wiki article says..."many Pentecostals were from the Holiness movement"...but, many were not, and are not.
Two completely separate movements...they do intertwine in some areas...but not all mesh together...so no sense in trying to make it so.
There are many Holiness folks that reject the Pentecostal idea of baptism of the Holy Spirit.
The Mosaic Law stuff, for one...I don't know of any Holiness believer that's trying to follow the Law.
The other, something that has been stressed by myself and others, is that Christian Perfection is not sinless perfection, as you keep insisting that it is.
The same reason other folks reject it...they don't believe it to be correct. Simple really...ok Drew!
thanks.
i'm glad you're onboard because it is rather challenging to keep it all straight.
why do the Holiness folks reject the Pente idea of baptism of the Holy Spirit?
I haven't read the link yet, but legalism doesn't necessarily refer to the Mosaic Law...for example, one could be legalistic in the sense that they insist that the KJV is the only correct translation of scripture...that's found nowhere in the Law...they could be legalistic about the type of programming members of their church are allowed to watch...or many other things...but the Law has nothing to do with it...just folks interpretations of scripture.well, a poster here provided a link by a Holiness teacher/preacher who says many of the problems the Movement found within itself was Legalism. now, as Christians when we speak of Legalism, we mean The Law. Mosaic Law....don't we?
ROFL!!
You must be confused, because I am discussing the Holiness Movement...not wanting to discuss the Pentecostal Movement, because that's not the topic of this thread.
Q: subsequently, do the movements which found their origins in it have sound doctrinal foundations?
It's on topic Drew. Pentacostalism is fair game in this thread.
ROFL!!
You must be confused, because I am discussing the Holiness Movement...not wanting to discuss the Pentecostal Movement, because that's not the topic of this thread.
I haven't read the link yet, but legalism doesn't necessarily refer to the Mosaic Law...for example, one could be legalistic in the sense that they insist that the KJV is the only correct translation of scripture...that's found nowhere in the Law...they could be legalistic about the type of programming members of their church are allowed to watch...or many other things...but the Law has nothing to do with it...just folks interpretations of scripture.
Doc:
Seems to me its the FRUIT that we need to look out for when linking these movements together. What are the characteristics that show a relationship?
It's obvious...
"the longing for "deeper" spiritual experience, experientialism in piety, the belief in the sensate "moment" of the "Baptism of the Spirit," the use of the Book of Acts and Pentecostal terminology, and a preoccupation with themes of "power" related to the work of the Holy Spirit in the believers life"
thanks Dave!
so, basically the Holiness folks say the process of salvation is initiated (by our belief in the Gospel?) and we are in the process of being saved: do we ever know for sure if we are?
(its just arminianism, right?)
and, at what point did we become without sin, but are now just in ignorance or error? like, sin is transgression of The Law. since the Law isn't "done away with", something had to happen to make our transgression of it no longer become offensive to God, deserving death.
so, the idea is, then, if i get this, that when the process of salvation was initiated God changed the definition of sin?
or is it that our new ability to fulfill the whole of the Law by fulfilling the Two (loving God & neighbour) is what covers our sin?...our mistakes?
here's where i'm having trouble....i really am not sure we ARE able to fulfill the Two great commandments to GOD'S SATISFACTION (at least according to Mosaic Law) - there's far more to the FIRST COMMANDMENTS which pertain to God than loving Him as best we can.
idolatry means we AREN'T loving Him the way He requires and desires. and, if we are honest, aren't we still guilty of idolatry at times? (not worshipping a statue) but the meaning and implications of it as laid out throughout THE TWO-EDGED SWORD?
i dunno....i'm pretty unworthy, but about as grateful as anybody can be (most of the time)
thanks for your reply, it's very helpful because i want to understand.
~ child.
"In asserting salvation by faith we mean this:
1. That pardon (salvation begun) is received by faith producing works;
2. That holiness (salvation continued) is faith working by love;
3. That heaven (salvation finished) is the reward of this faith. If you, who assert salvation by works, or by faith and works, mean the same thing (understanding by faith, the revelation of Christ in us - by salvation, pardon, holiness, glory), we will not strive with you at all. If you do not, this is not a "strife of words," but the very vitals; the essence of Christianity is the thing in question." The Third Annual Conference of The Methodist Church, 12 May 1746, Bristol
Do we ever know for sure if we are? (If we are ever saved I assume?) A mon avis, that would be when we are in Heaven, and no longer in a position to make mistakes and sin (heaven will be perfect so no sin will take place).
What John Wesley said,
Soooo, We get to heaven (are fully saved) by God's grace, a grace that is always present (that is prevenient grace) that works within us, from pardoning (that is, the justifying grace), through the transforming of us to make us holy (that is, sanctifying grace), up until we become fully saved and are truly living with God.
This is all made possible by God's love, mercies... and Christ's atoning sacrifice.
To the rest of your post,
I totally agree that fulfilling the first commandments is not easy and that the whole meaning is deeper. Christian Perfection doesn't say it's easy to perfectly love God but that it is possible, it is possible to refrain from all forms of idolatry however slight, it is possible to give money to the homeless man on the street (or any other example of showing love to our neighbour) etc...
It is possible to stop willfully sinning (in our fallen state some things will still happen though that run contrary to God's law).
This living a holy life is sometimes seen by others as being legalistic, and trying to gain favour with God, but it is not, this must always be a response to what God has already done for us. Surely by allowing the Holy Spirit to work within us, it is possible to love God fully.
I think I've answered some of your points, sorry if I've just given you a rambly post
hi Mr Dave!
well, i do believe not only can we know we are saved, we are to know it.
here's where i suppose we greatly differ theologically, specifically re Soteriology.
for me, a simple reading of The Bible shows that we are SAVED by Grace through faith (qualifier: saving faith). i believe God Purposed and will Accomplish the absolute redemption of all who receive saving faith, whic is by Grace, not of works.
i believe God calls, God saves. He is able, and He is willing. He has Purposed it, and it will be.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Romans 3:24
and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Romans 4:4
Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due
......you know the rest.
i find all this to be man's reasoning since he can not understand the power of God, nor the Purpose of God, nor the Finished Work of Jesus Christ.
look Mr. Dave: God is FULLY ABLE to justify the ungodly:
Romans 4:5
And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
what seems to be missed is that not only are we graciously forgiven our sins by the Penal Substitutionary Atonement, we have Christ' Righteousness (born under Mosaic Law, perfect fulfillment) imputed to our account....BY FAITH.
this is for HIS GLORY.
its not our doing.
The rest, yep all that good stuff people mention
I agree with you here
"for me, a simple reading of The Bible shows that we are SAVED by Grace through faith (qualifier: saving faith). i believe God Purposed and will Accomplish the absolute redemption of all who receive saving faith, whic is by Grace, not of works.
i believe God calls, God saves. He is able, and He is willing. He has Purposed it, and it will be."
Absolutely! Although I would say that as a response, works would naturally follow (always a response, never a pre-requisite.
Knowing our salvation. I don't know why I never said it before, and why I rambled incessantly beforeAssurance of one's salvation is a distinctive of Wesleyanism, from which the Holiness Movement grew. The Methodist Church of Great Britain | Assurance of God's love Also, see my signature of the 'four alls' of Methodism (from which the Holiness Movement was a part and grew) "...All may know themselves saved..." Is the doctrine of assurance. (The others being the doctrines of 'Original Sin', 'Unlimited atonement', and 'Christian Perfection' respectively)).
Btw, the first line of my previous post was me writing my thoughts as they came, that was a quote from you and me responding to it, I realise it could have seemed like a rhetorical question which would have then coloured my entire postNo-one's perfect eh, or free from mistakes ).
Man's reasoning yes, are not most theological understandings the reason of man? That does not mean that he failed to grasp the power of God...
You say it yourself, faith is needed which would be in agreement with Wesley that faith is the starting point that then by the assistance of the Holy Spirit, bears out fruit for God's Glory.).
You said that holiness doctrines are legalistic. Could you give me an example, and do you see these as different to Wesleyan/Methodist ones (from which they will have sprung if they differ)?.
I'm sure you'd agree that there needs to be a balance between the legalism (the false accusation often thrown at Arminianism) and antinominianism (the false accusation often thrown at Calvinism).
I thank you too for the discussionIt's a while since I've really got into a discussion, tis good (good fun, and good for my conscience to be questioned).
sorry got busy and forgot bout histhank you Renee!
ok.
so, though from what i can see by reading, the order of existence was:
1 -Holiness
2 -Pentecostal
3 - AoG
4 - others
you've said the Holiness doctrine has crept in (back in?) to AoG?
renee, in your assessment, is there unsound doctrine that may be inherent to all that comes from the same doctrine (relating to the idea of perfection?)
i can't seem to get a handle on how the various organizations see perfection as happening - seems to range from a purging or burning out of the sin nature; to a divinely enabled power to cease sinning; to a righteousness now possible under an ability to fulfill the requirements of Mosaic Law....??
can you simplify for me?
sorry got busy and forgot bout his
Unfotunately some churches in the AOG movement are so still to this day so full of the Holliness movement that the only thing seperating them from Oneness is the belief in the Trinity.
Relating to the idea of perfection? Yes I would say so. In the AOG I was raised. The Holiness movement had such a strangle hold that the way you dress was viewed as a way to perfection. In fact after the great split of the church I have seen some that tried to find that "perfection" some other way and falling very short.
Let me also add that there is such a heavy bondage that some even go so far to the other side after leaving that you can not tell them at all from the world. It's almost like they start rebelling against the Holliness movement to the point of almost becoming like the world
Renee, the problem here is that you are confusing the Holiness Movement with legalism...You say that you were part of the AoG...if you research the AoG you will see that they have no ties to the Holiness Movement, only to the Pentecostal Movement.sorry got busy and forgot bout his
Unfotunately some churches in the AOG movement are so still to this day so full of the Holliness movement that the only thing seperating them from Oneness is the belief in the Trinity.
Relating to the idea of perfection? Yes I would say so. In the AOG I was raised. The Holiness movement had such a strangle hold that the way you dress was viewed as a way to perfection. In fact after the great split of the church I have seen some that tried to find that "perfection" some other way and falling very short.
Let me also add that there is such a heavy bondage that some even go so far to the other side after leaving that you can not tell them at all from the world. It's almost like they start rebelling against the Holliness movement to the point of almost becoming like the world
Assemblies of God - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaThe Assemblies of God has its roots in the Pentecostal revival of the early 20th century. The Pentecostal aspects of the revival were not generally welcomed by established churches, and participants in the movement soon found themselves forced outside existing religious bodies. These people sought out their own places of worship and founded hundreds of distinctly Pentecostal congregations. By 1914, many ministers and laymen alike began to realize just how far-reaching the spread of the revival and of Pentecostalism had become. Concerned leaders felt the desire to protect and preserve the results of the revival by uniting through cooperative fellowship.
Holiness movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaThe holiness movement refers to a set of beliefs and practices emerging from the Methodist Christian church in the mid 19th century. The movement is distinguished by its emphasis on John Wesley's doctrine of "Christian perfection" - the belief that it is possible to live free of voluntary sin - and particularly by the belief that this may be accomplished instantaneously through a second work of grace.
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