The Hobbit: Does It Both Address Diaspora 4 Religious Groups while Sterotyping Them

Hoshiyya · Sep 23, 2015

Actually there are some similarities, but the point is that they were never satisfactory. For example look at the list of names they have, it's stuff straight from Elder Edda. Bofur, Bifur, Thorin and all those names come straight from Viking texts.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Middle-earth_Dwarves

However, mythological dwarves were never representatives of a different culture, nor elves, but Tolkien basically made each of his races represent different nations or cultures. The Elves have various Irish and Finnish/Baltic aspects (non-Germanic but still north European).

Hoshiyya · Sep 23, 2015

Tolkien may have thought words like "Khazad-Dum" sounded Hebrew, but honestly it sounds more like a Slavic or Steppe language word to me. He is obviously aware of triconsonantal roots and so on, but there's more to Hebrew than that..

SinnerInTheHands · Sep 23, 2015

Hoshiyya said:
Actually there are some similarities, but the point is that they were never satisfactory. For example look at the list of names they have, it's stuff straight from Elder Edda. Bofur, Bifur, Thorin and all those names come straight from Viking texts.

I am fully aware of the connection between Tolkien's naming characteristics and the Poetic Edda. That being said, however, the connection ends there.

Hoshiyya · Sep 23, 2015

Thus the fictional language of Dwarvish has actual Norse words in it, and no actual Hebrew words in it.

It also has words like "gamil" to mean old, clearly derived from Scandinavian languages (Swedish gammal, Norwegian gammel).

SinnerInTheHands · Sep 23, 2015

Hoshiyya said:
It also has words like "gamil" to mean old, clearly derived from Scandinavian languages (Swedish gammal, Norwegian gammel).

Where is Gamli ever mentioned as being a Khuzdul word?

Hoshiyya · Sep 23, 2015

Gamil. Found it on a site listing Dwarvish words.

From the name Gamil Zirak, “old spike(?)”. The meaning of this word is clearly indicated by the appearance of the parallel name “Zirak the old” in The Lost Road and Other Writings. Here we also have a possible wordplay in the similarity between gamil and poetic Old English ”gamol” (Modern Swedish ”gammal”), “old”.

Gxg (G²) · Sep 24, 2015

SinnerInTheHands said:
"The dwarves of course are quite obviously - wouldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic." [Tolkien]

"I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue..." [Tolkien]

Makes sense

SinnerInTheHands · Sep 24, 2015

Hoshiyya said:
Gamil. Found it on a site listing Dwarvish words.

From the name Gamil Zirak, “old spike(?)”. The meaning of this word is clearly indicated by the appearance of the parallel name “Zirak the old” in The Lost Road and Other Writings. Here we also have a possible wordplay in the similarity between gamil and poetic Old English ”gamol” (Modern Swedish ”gammal”), “old”.

I'll grant you that it's from Tolkien's canon, but be wary of internet Dwarvish sites, as Tolkien didn't give a lot of Khuzdul words in his sagas, but when Peter Jackson directed LOTR he hired a guy to flesh out Khuzdul so that it sounded more like a language. Thus, now there's Tolkien-approved Khuzdul, and Jackson-approved [non-canon] neo-Khuzdul.

ContraMundum · Sep 24, 2015

I'm struck with the thought that perhaps in the early parts of the last century we wouldn't have been having this discussion. Emphasis on discussing race, gender, sexuality and trying to make all things equal is really part of our current zeitgeist. Sometimes it worries me because our world is becoming very much a media driven surveillance society and anything deemed out of step with the zeitgeist is pounced upon. On the other hand, we need to stamp out racism without stamping out tolerance and the celebration of all races.

Jane_the_Bane · Sep 24, 2015

There are no human races. Our species exhibits surprisingly little genetic diversification, and certainly not enough to justify a division into (sub-)races other than homo sapiens sapiens.
Our greatest diversity comes in terms of culture, and back in the day when mobility was limited, this often coincided with a certain physical appearance. But the colour of your skin (or your genitals, while we're at it) tell me less about you than, say, your first language, the traditions of the people you grew up with, or your world view/religion.

Gxg (G²) · Sep 24, 2015

Jane_the_Bane said:
There are no human races. Our species exhibits surprisingly little genetic diversification, and certainly not enough to justify a division into (sub-)races other than homo sapiens sapiens.

Our greatest diversity comes in terms of culture, and back in the day when mobility was limited, this often coincided with a certain physical appearance. But the colour of your skin (or your genitals, while we're at it) tell me less about you than, say, your first language, the traditions of the people you grew up with, or your world view/religion.

There was an interesting discussion that ensued which I developed elsewhere on FB - as seen here.

A lot of things have since shifted and we cannot have this "survival of the fittest" mindset. Of course, as another noted, it is interesting that the entire darwinistic view of race is something others have addressed when saying Darwin didn't understand how much skin pigmentation shifted based on environment. For an amazing presentation, one can investigate "TED: Skin color is an illusion"

Jane_the_Bane · Sep 25, 2015

Darwin had this to say about human "races":

"It may be doubted whether any character can be named, which is distinctive of a race and is constant ... they graduate into each other, and ... it is hardly possible to discover clear, distinctive characters between them ... As it is improbable that the numerous, and unimportant, points of resemblance, between the several races of man, in bodily structure and mental faculties (I do not here refer to similar customs) should all have been independently acquired, they must have been inherited from progenitors who had these same characters" (The Descent of Man)

While he wasn't exactly free from the norms and assumptions of his day (calling the Australian natives "savages", for example), he did not conceive of different ethnicities as "races" in the biological sense, i.e. populations so distinct that they must be considered biologically incompatible.

As for "survival of the fittest": social Darwinists have misunderstood that key mechanism of natural selection almost as much as creationist detractors.

Jane_the_Bane · Sep 25, 2015

Armoured said:
Don't fall for the sinful abomination that is The Hobbit. It makes people think that New Zealand is a nice place.

Wasn't most of the Hobbit shot in studio-sets, anyway? (In sharp contrast to LotR, where they actually flew the actors on top of a mountain in order to obtain certain shots.)

SinnerInTheHands · Sep 25, 2015

Armoured said:
Doesn't matter. It still tricks people into thinking New Zealand is pleasant, continuing the disgusting work of LotR.

The ONLY background in LotR that wasn't bluescreen was Mordor. That's what New Zealand is like.

Gxg (G²) · Sep 25, 2015

Hoshiyya said:
Actually there are some similarities, but the point is that they were never satisfactory. For example look at the list of names they have, it's stuff straight from Elder Edda. Bofur, Bifur, Thorin and all those names come straight from Viking texts.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Middle-earth_Dwarves

However, mythological dwarves were never representatives of a different culture, nor elves, but Tolkien basically made each of his races represent different nations or cultures. The Elves have various Irish and Finnish/Baltic aspects (non-Germanic but still north European).

Interesting...

SinnerInTheHands · Sep 25, 2015

Hoshiyya said:
Actually there are some similarities, but the point is that they were never satisfactory. For example look at the list of names they have, it's stuff straight from Elder Edda. Bofur, Bifur, Thorin and all those names come straight from Viking texts.

Technically not Viking, and technically only one text, but yes, most of the names come from a single section of a single prophecy in the Poetic Edda.

Hoshiyya · Sep 26, 2015

Correct others much ?

Viking just means "pirate", but we refer to the Norse and Icelandic civilization as Viking in common parliance. The Icelandic material is often regarded as representing mainland Scandinavian material as well.

"single section of a single prophecy" lol !

You are really straining to marginalize my contributions. Straining powerfully !

To me at least, the Middle-earth dwarves have a clear nordic aesthetic; and judging by the later interpretations of dwarves in other high fantasy writings, other writers inspired by Tolkien have taken the dwarves in that direction, not in the Jewish or middle-eastern direction. Just making an observation.

Tolkien's Dwarves furthermore have the aspect of miners and inventors, which relates to actual historical myths, where real human occupations were projected onto the fictional entities. When people go into the mountains it is for mining purposes, so that must be what the dwarves are doing inside the mountains all day.

In the Tolkien-inspired fictional universes of Warhammer and Warcraft we see how the creators of these universes have picked up on the nordic thread and the idea of dwarves or gnomes being inventors of modern / Western technology like the airplane. The Jewish element was too subtle for them to pick up on.

SinnerInTheHands · Sep 26, 2015

Hoshiyya said:
Correct others much ?

Viking just means "pirate", but we refer to the Norse and Icelandic civilization as Viking in common parliance. The Icelandic material is often regarded as representing mainland Scandinavian material as well.

"single section of a single prophecy" lol !

You are really straining to marginalize my contributions. Straining powerfully !

To me at least, the Middle-earth dwarves have a clear nordic aesthetic; and judging by the later interpretations of dwarves in other high fantasy writings, other writers inspired by Tolkien have taken the dwarves in that direction, not in the Jewish or middle-eastern direction. Just making an observation.

Tolkien's Dwarves furthermore have the aspect of miners and inventors, which relates to actual historical myths, where real human occupations were projected onto the fictional entities. When people go into the mountains it is for mining purposes, so that must be what the dwarves are doing inside the mountains all day.

In the Tolkien-inspired fictional universes of Warhammer and Warcraft we see how the creators of these universes have picked up on the nordic thread and the idea of dwarves or gnomes being inventors of modern / Western technology like the airplane. The Jewish element was too subtle for them to pick up on.

I am not attempting to marginalize your contributions to this thread, but rather to defend my Scandinavian heritage.

The Poetic Edda is not "Viking" because it was written by an Icelandic Christian Monk a good 300 years after the end of the Viking Age and subsequent Christianization of the Norse peoples.

Yes, the naming systems of Tolkien's dwarves rely heavily on Norse mythology, but unlike the numerous sagas you seem to imply he ripped their names off of, he instead relies on a single section [the Dvergatal, which some scholars debate was added even after the Edda was written] found in a single poem / prophecy [the Vǫluspá], found in a single Edda [the Poetic] among hundreds of other sagas.

To you, the Middle-Earth dwarves have a clear nordic aesthetic, and to you, the later interpretations of Dwarves are based far more off that than a Semitic cast.

The question however, is what Tolkien intended the dwarves to be based off of.

Gxg (G²) · Sep 28, 2015

SinnerInTheHands said:
Yes, the naming systems of Tolkien's dwarves rely heavily on Norse mythology, but unlike the numerous sagas you seem to imply he ripped their names off of, he instead relies on a single section [the Dvergatal, which some scholars debate was added even after the Edda was written] found in a single poem / prophecy [the Vǫluspá], found in a single Edda [the Poetic] among hundreds of other sagas.

To you, the Middle-Earth dwarves have a clear nordic aesthetic, and to you, the later interpretations of Dwarves are based far more off that than a Semitic cast.

The question however, is what Tolkien intended the dwarves to be based off of.

Interesting to consider...

Gxg (G²) · Sep 30, 2015

Jane_the_Bane said:
Wasn't most of the Hobbit shot in studio-sets, anyway? (In sharp contrast to LotR, where they actually flew the actors on top of a mountain in order to obtain certain shots.)

Did not know that

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