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The historical Adam

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mark kennedy

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Apparently, there are those who believe Adam and Eve being the father and mother of all mankind is bad theology. Don't ask me how they came to this conclusion but I am interested in hearing from Creationists on this issue.

What is the Biblical/theological basis for Adam and Eve being literal, historical people and the first man and woman? I am especially interested in Biblical reasons but any theological points you want to throw in here will be most welcome.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 

MatthewDiscipleofGod

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mark kennedy said:
Apparently, there are those who believe Adam and Eve being the father and mother of all mankind is bad theology. Don't ask me how they came to this conclusion but I am interested in hearing from Creationists on this issue.

What is the Biblical/theological basis for Adam and Eve being literal, historical people and the first man and woman? I am especially interested in Biblical reasons but any theological points you want to throw in here will be most welcome.

Grace and peace,
Mark

1. Family tree

Just one example:

Luke 3:38
the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

2. Adam and Eve referred to as real people

1 Timothy 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

3. How can Jesus be a second Adam if there was never really a first one

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.





 
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Pats

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I'm interested to see what turns up in this thread. :)

Just to ask... wouldn't have been normal back in Jesus' time for people to refer to important stories contained in the Torah whether they are about literal people or not?

How can we tell from these NT statements that the people the language they're using can only be taken as refering to literal people? and not just important firgures from an important story?
 
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mark kennedy

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Generally, when the Scriptures are indicating a parable, metaphore, figure...etc, the context will indicate that with a 'like' or 'as'. With Adam and Eve you just don't get any indication that there is some figurative language involved. Project 88 gives a good group of examples and there are others, Romans 5 being the one that stands out in my mind.

I really wanted to get more into this but I am keeping so busy these days it's getting harder. I do think there has to be some way of indicating an historical narrative as opposed to figurative language. Even when you are looking at highly figurative language there are times that literal events are being described.

I'll have a little time this weekend, I'll see if I can get something together to clarify the topic a little better.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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lands21

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RealityCheck said:
I should think it's entirely irrelevant anyway, since supposedly all humans except for Noah and his kind were killed in the flood. Right?


Please explain.... Adam and Eve were the parents (first parents) or Noah as well...so why would this change anything?
 
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RealityCheck

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Project 86 said:
1. Family tree

Just one example:

Luke 3:38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

2. Adam and Eve referred to as real people

1 Timothy 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

3. How can Jesus be a second Adam if there was never really a first one

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.






The mere fact that something is stated in the Bible does not make that statement true and accurate.

1) That Luke mentions Adam is hardly much of a big deal, since Adam is mentioned in Genesis which predates the gospel of Luke by over 500 years, and was and is a part of the holiest book of the Jews. It doesn't prove Adam existed - it merely proves that in Luke's day, Adam was still widely regarded in the Jewish world as the first human. Note a few things about this, too. Luke and Matthew agree on the genealogy around Adam and his near descendents, but disagree on the immediate ancestry of Joseph. Also note that Joseph wasn't actually the father of Jesus, not biologically anyway (at least, not if you believe in the doctrine of Jesus being begotten by God and not by a man). Why then is the genealogy even needed?

2) I can refer to Thor, Harry Potter, Frodo Baggins, Captain Kirk, Sherlock Holmes, and any number of other people as "real people" as well. That I do so doesn't make them real. Ancient Egyptians referred to Osiris and Horus as "real Gods" and ancient Greeks believed in people such as Theseus and Oedipus Rex as "real people" as well. Does that mean they really existed?

3) The belief that Jesus was a "second Adam" is an invention of the early Christian church, one of the many stories devised by the church to explain who Jesus was and what his purpose was, since he obviously did not fit the purpose of the Messiah as expected by Judaism.
 
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RealityCheck

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Pats said:
I'm interested to see what turns up in this thread. :)

Just to ask... wouldn't have been normal back in Jesus' time for people to refer to important stories contained in the Torah whether they are about literal people or not?

How can we tell from these NT statements that the people the language they're using can only be taken as refering to literal people? and not just important firgures from an important story?

Exactly so.
 
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mark kennedy

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RealityCheck said:
I should think it's entirely irrelevant anyway, since supposedly all humans except for Noah and his kind were killed in the flood. Right?

It's hardly irrelevant if Noah and his family like Adam and Eve are literal historical figures. I am looking for Biblical and theological reasons for the historicity of Adam but Noah is important as well.
 
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RealityCheck

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mark kennedy said:
It's hardly irrelevant if Noah and his family like Adam and Eve are literal historical figures. I am looking for Biblical and theological reasons for the historicity of Adam but Noah is important as well.


The most common theological reason I know of for believing that Adam and Eve were literal historical figures (and thus Noah as well) is that if they were not "literal historical" people, then the doctrine of salvation through Christ is false and/or meaningless.

The thought runs more or less like this. Jesus represents a "second Adam" - what that means isn't really clear, but as Adam literally is "man" then it means that Jesus is the "second man", as opposed to the "first man." The first man was tainted by sin, and by extension all humans are tainted by sin. The "second man" is then separate, and not tainted by this sin. This second Adam is seen as the necessary sacrifice to overcome and defeat sin, and thus by extension, the wages of sin - death. It is implicit in Genesis 3 that part of God's curse on Adam and his descendants is that they will not enjoy eternal life, but will instead die, as a consequence of sin.

Now, if Adam is NOT a historical figure, say proponents of this idea, then Jesus's sacrifice was in vain, because sin and death did not enter via Adam. This would mean, then, that there was never a state of perfection in the "first man" and thus, there is no perfect state we can be restored to. That, after all, is a common concept of what salvation is - restoration to that perfect state. If there was never such a perfect state, how can we be restored to it?

Of course, there is the alternative idea that yes, indeed, humans never started in a perfect state at any time in history, but we can strive to be elevated or elevate ourselves into that perfect state, or close to it. This is somewhat akin to Buddhist and Hindu belief. In fact, it is interesting to note, Buddhists and Hindus do not ignore Jesus, but in fact frequently view Jesus as having been such a person - one who learned the path toward elevation to perfection, and the story of his ministry of love and repentance, of selfless sacrifice, is Jesus's way of pointing the rest of us toward this perfect state. (You can find Buddhists who do think of Jesus as having been close to a perfect Buddha, or possibly even WAS a Buddha.)

To some degree, this also reflects Methodist belief. Wesley did not believe in the idea that humans inherit sin from Adam - for him, the doctrine of Original Sin made no sense. Wesley held that we are born sinless and are essentially blank slates... but we have the capacity for sin, and inevitably we all do fall prey to this capability. Thus, following Christ is the path to overcoming this capacity and tendency toward sin. In essence, it is progressing beyond our baser nature and striving toward the perfection exemplified by Christ.

Actually, the concept of humans having started as "perfect" but eventually descended into a fallen state (whether suddenly or gradually) is pervasive in many Western philosophies and religions. The ancient Greeks, for example, believed that human history proceeded through several ages, starting with a Golden Age (perfection), a Silver age, then a Bronze age, and so on, down to their "modern times" in which humans lived very short lives, had lost much of the miraculous technology of previous ages, and so on. This belief has even made its way into some Christian views today - you can find people who believe that Adam and Eve weren't even the original "humans" but were the final creation of humans, and that Genesis 1 indicates an earlier creation (and that even Job represents an earlier age, because in Job you have Satan residing in Heaven - which could not have been true according to the Genesis 2 story if the serpent = Satan).
 
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mark kennedy

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RealityCheck said:
The mere fact that something is stated in the Bible does make that statement true and accurate.

I would agree that it may or may not be understood, but the truth and accuracy of the Bible is non-negotiable for me.

1) That Luke mentions Adam is hardly much of a big deal, since Adam is mentioned in Genesis which predates the gospel of Luke by over 500 years, and was and is a part of the holiest book of the Jews. It doesn't prove Adam existed - it merely proves that in Luke's day, Adam was still widely regarded in the Jewish world as the first human. Note a few things about this, too. Luke and Matthew agree on the genealogy around Adam and his near descendents, but disagree on the immediate ancestry of Joseph. Also note that Joseph wasn't actually the father of Jesus, not biologically anyway (at least, not if you believe in the doctrine of Jesus being begotten by God and not by a man). Why then is the genealogy even needed?

Jesus was most often refered to as the Son of Man (His favorite referance to Himself), often as the Son of God (John's focus in the Gospel account bearing his name). In Matthew Jesus is refered to as the Son of David which is vital to understanding Jesus claim to be 'King of the Jews'. The geneology establishes Jesus' bloodline as descending from David, if you don't understand the signifigance of that you don't really understand messianic prophecy.

Now as far as Luke, he calls Adam the Son of God. This can be understood as the fact that he had no human lineage procedeing him. That is one of a number of Biblical proof texts that establish the historical Adam as the first man. It should be realized that the Bible is the primary source document for all redemptive history.

2) I can refer to Thor, Harry Potter, Frodo Baggins, Captain Kirk, Sherlock Holmes, and any number of other people as "real people" as well. That I do so doesn't make them real. Ancient Egyptians referred to Osiris and Horus as "real Gods" and ancient Greeks believed in people such as Theseus and Oedipus Rex as "real people" as well. Does that mean they really existed?

This is clearly not the same thing at all, in fact it sounds like hyperbole.

3) The belief that Jesus was a "second Adam" is an invention of the early Christian church, one of the many stories devised by the church to explain who Jesus was and what his purpose was, since he obviously did not fit the purpose of the Messiah as expected by Judaism.

He fit the purpose in the sense of being the Son of David which I have allready mentioned. As far as being the Son of God that is established by His eternal nature expressed throughout the Gospels, partcularly John's account.

I think the issue comes down to what warrants a proof text establishing an historical event or person.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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RealityCheck

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mark kennedy said:
Jesus was most often refered to as the Son of Man (His favorite referance to Himself), often as the Son of God (John's focus in the Gospel account bearing his name). In Matthew Jesus is refered to as the Son of David which is vital to understanding Jesus claim to be 'King of the Jews'. The geneology establishes Jesus' bloodline as descending from David, if you don't understand the signifigance of that you don't really understand messianic prophecy.

Of course I understand the significance of that, but what most people simply ignore is that Matthew and Luke trace Jesus's genealogy through Joseph, who, according to the same gospels, was not a blood descendant of Joseph. How then can he be a blood descendant of David?

I know - the most common answer is "Mary must have been descended from David too." But that is pure speculation - not one word anywhere in the Bible supports this claim.

mark kennedy said:
Now as far as Luke, he calls Adam the Son of God. This can be understood as the fact that he had no human lineage procedeing him. That is one of a number of Biblical proof texts that establish the historical Adam as the first man. It should be realized that the Bible is the primary source document for all redemptive history.

That is only a "proof text" if you believe the Bible to be an accurate record of history. That is a matter of belief only, however.

Also, I will point out that if Adam is a "Son of God" then Jesus cannot be "God's only son."



mark kennedy said:
He fit the purpose in the sense of being the Son of David which I have allready mentioned. As far as being the Son of God that is established by His eternal nature expressed throughout the Gospels, partcularly John's account.

The purpose of the "Son of David", that is "The Messiah", was reinterpreted by the early Christians out of necessity. All of the prophecies concerning the Son of David are quite clear that The Messiah does not die. The Messiah does not die and then come back to life. The Messiah arrives, establishes the Kingdom of God, is immortal (no death - ever), and that is that. That is how the Jews understood the Messiah, and why most rejected the Apostolic claim that Jesus was the Messiah. Even the resurrection story did not help the claim, because many Jews did not hold any belief in resurrection, and those that did believed that a general resurrection would occur once in history - and that if one resurrection had occurred, then the general resurrection would also have to have occurred. That didn't happen, so even these Jews rejected the Apostolic claims.

mark kennedy said:
I think the issue comes down to what warrants a proof text establishing an historical event or person.

Grace and peace,
Mark


Good question.
 
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mark kennedy

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RealityCheck said:
Of course I understand the significance of that, but what most people simply ignore is that Matthew and Luke trace Jesus's genealogy through Joseph, who, according to the same gospels, was not a blood descendant of Joseph. How then can he be a blood descendant of David?

You don't have to be a blood descendant of Abraham to be a Jew and Jesus did not have to be a blood son of David. That kind of language appears nowhere in the language of the New Testament of the Old for that matter. The geneologies establish him as being Judean, of the root of Jesse, house of David and that is about it. I don't see what the problem is here, it's all pretty straight forward.

I know - the most common answer is "Mary must have been descended from David too." But that is pure speculation - not one word anywhere in the Bible supports this claim.

Mary's geneology is in Luke and David's is in Matthew, if memory serves. The point being that both of the geneologies belong to Jesus. Mary was a descendant of David as was Joseph, Jesus is a member of the house of David which is the royal line.



That is only a "proof text" if you believe the Bible to be an accurate record of history. That is a matter of belief only, however.

It is odd how often the historicity of the Scriptures is questioned by professing Christians. It gets even more puzzling when in a forum set aside for creationists historicity is reduced to personal opinion. A proof text is a matter of doctrine, a primary source document is a legal term which also means first quality source. The Bible among Christians (particularly creationists) put the Bible well above other sources for the historicity of people and events.

Redemptive history is the focus of Scripture, why wouldn't we put the Bible first.

Also, I will point out that if Adam is a "Son of God" then Jesus cannot be "God's only son."

Define 'only' and show me how it is used in Scripture.



The purpose of the "Son of David", that is "The Messiah", was reinterpreted by the early Christians out of necessity.



All of the prophecies concerning the Son of David are quite clear that The Messiah does not die. The Messiah does not die and then come back to life. The Messiah arrives, establishes the Kingdom of God, is immortal (no death - ever), and that is that. That is how the Jews understood the Messiah, and why most rejected the Apostolic claim that Jesus was the Messiah. Even the resurrection story did not help the claim, because many Jews did not hold any belief in resurrection, and those that did believed that a general resurrection would occur once in history - and that if one resurrection had occurred, then the general resurrection would also have to have occurred. That didn't happen, so even these Jews rejected the Apostolic claims.

I don't think you are seperating this into its basic parts. The Messiah is called a number of different things throughout the OT. Here is an example of the Messiah being 'cut off' which means he dies:

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;" (Daniel 9:26a)

In the Prophets the revelation is expanded:

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;" (Daniel 9:27)




Good question.

That is pretty much where I am going with, more on this later.
 
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Robert the Pilegrim

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RealityCheck said:
Of course I understand the significance of that, but what most people simply ignore is that Matthew and Luke trace Jesus's genealogy through Joseph, who, according to the same gospels, was not a blood descendant of Joseph. How then can he be a blood descendant of David?
some argue that ... one or the other, don't remember which, go through Mary
Also, I will point out that if Adam is a "Son of God" then Jesus cannot be "God's only son."
We are all God's children, Jesus was God the Father's only begotten, uncreated son.
The purpose of the "Son of David", that is "The Messiah", was reinterpreted by the early Christians out of necessity.
That is of course your opinion. Some of us believe it was reinterpreted by the guidence of the Holy Spirit in light of what they had witnessed.
 
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Floodnut

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RealityCheck said:
I should think it's entirely irrelevant anyway, since supposedly all humans except for Noah and his kind were killed in the flood. Right?
It is not really irrelevant since Jesus makes ethical points on the basis of Adam and Eve being literal, and on the basis of Adam's son, Abel being literal.

John treats Cain and Abel as literal.

The bad news which necessitates the Gospel is based on the literalness of Adam and his true sin of eating what God had forbidden.
 
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RealityCheck said:
The mere fact that something is stated in the Bible does not make that statement true and accurate.

1) That Luke mentions Adam is hardly much of a big deal, since Adam is mentioned in Genesis which predates the gospel of Luke by over 500 years,. . .truncated

Genesis predates the Gospels by over 1400 years.
 
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RealityCheck

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Floodnut said:
Genesis predates the Gospels by over 1400 years.


The earliest existant original texts of Genesis date somewhere between 600 and 500 BC. There are no texts of Genesis that date to 1400 years before Christ's birth (whatever that date is, give or take 10 years).

It is possible that earlier texts were written, and were written, say, 1000 years or 1500 years before, but no physical evidence of such exists anywhere.
 
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Floodnut

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RealityCheck said:
The earliest existant original texts of Genesis date somewhere between 600 and 500 BC. There are no texts of Genesis that date to 1400 years before Christ's birth (whatever that date is, give or take 10 years).

It is possible that earlier texts were written, and were written, say, 1000 years or 1500 years before, but no physical evidence of such exists anywhere.
Interesting: So, the oldest extant copy determines when something was written.
Moses wrote Genesis prior to the Exodus, to provide his people a written record of their identity and how they came to be in Egypt. The Exodus occured in 1445 and Genesis was probably written prior to that, perhaps as early as 40 years prior, even before to the flight of Moses in 1495 after the slaying of the Egyptian.
 
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