The hell-bound "bit"

[Benedicta00]

Yeah, but would someone that is in a state of Grace decide to murder someone the next day?

If they are menatlly ill, seriously mentally ill, yes.

 

[Michelina]

If they are menatlly ill, seriously mentally ill, yes.

Hi, Michelle

Mental illness would affect culpability.

Applied Moral Theology deals with specifics.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Maybe we could refine the discussion to a different mortal sin? Maybe like missing Sunday Mass, or masturbating-- or for the unmarried kissing passionately, or presumption.


You could be in a state of grace, but still have an attatchment for your venial sins, thus weakening your resolve. Many things can sweep upon us in a few moments of weakness- as if the devil waits to attack with all his strength for those few moments where we are the weakest-- even when we truly love God.

Although I can't imagine someone who truly loves God refusing to repent and seek His forgiveness for having done wrong. I know sometimes after I sin, I'm kinda like Adam and Eve, and God has to say "Shannon, why are you hiding?"-- it's the part of me that's like a little kid who just doesn't want to bring out into the light what I have done.

In the Sacred Heart of Jesus
Shannon

 

[Benedicta00]

Hi, Michelle

Mental illness would affect culpability.

Applied Moral Theology deals with specifics.

Well yea, that was kind of my point. From the outside we can say “how” can someone do this one day from the next say “how” can God send you to hell if you confess one day and sin the next but the truth is that only God knows the heart and He makes that decision . All we can do is not judge anyone and theoretically accept what the Church says, that one mortal sin unrepented can land us in hell.

 

[Michelina]

Well yea, that was kind of my point. From the outside we can say “how” can someone do this one day from the next say “how” can God send you to hell if you confess one day and sin the next but the truth is that only God knows the heart and He makes that decision . All we can do is not judge anyone and theoretically accept what the Church says, that one mortal sin unrepented can land us in hell.

Exactly, Michelle. Your common sense never fails to hit the nail on the head.

 

[Benedicta00]

Also another point is we can be sorry for what we have done but never be healed emotionally for why we commit the sin and fall back into it because be we are not healed, feeling bad for doing it the whole time. Paul says, “I don’t do the good I want and I do the evil I don’t want.” It all stems back to original sin and the wounds that we suffer because of it. Sometimes it can be because of Satan and diabolical influences but rarely it is because of that (we give Satan way to much credit and not enough to our own depravity). It more than likely is just because we are wounded people who are redeemed but still needs healing more than demonic deliverance. And to confuse things even more, Satan can tempt us with our own depravity, so it is best if we just follow the Church’s teachings the best we can and let God read the heart.

There is a psychological and also diabolical aspect to why we sin and that is why psychology that does not end with Christ can not heal someone, a person needs to understand why they behave the way they do in order to stop the sin. They also need to understand that being sorry just can't stop a sin when the sin is a learned behavior. Then they need to be healed by Christ, not fixed, just healed, and then they can control their vices.

I hope I am making sense here. This is precisely why the Church say that a firm purpose is all that is needed. As long as we are sincerely honestly sorry and we really do not intent to commit the sin again we are forgiven at that moment, even if we do end up sinning the next day.

 

[Michelina]

Well said.

Grace flows thru our hearts and minds when we use the Sacraments God has given us for this purpose.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Well yea, that was kind of my point. From the outside we can say “how” can someone do this one day from the next say “how” can God send you to hell if you confess one day and sin the next but the truth is that only God knows the heart and He makes that decision . All we can do is not judge anyone and theoretically accept what the Church says, that one mortal sin unrepented can land us in hell.

Which is why the "Hell Bit" idea is a misconception of our beliefs.

Thanks

 

[Benedicta00]

Which is why the "Hell Bit" idea is a misconception of our beliefs.

Thanks

Not really, theoretically speaking it does not. The Church can not read the heart of each man only God can, the Church teaches us the truth and God does the judging. The truth is that one mortal sin on our soul merits hell.

 

[prodromos]

Which is why the "Hell Bit" idea is a misconception of our beliefs.

I don't recall it being presented as representative of Catholic belief. On the contrary it was presented as NOT being representative of Orthodox belief.


John

 

[RhetorTheo]

Let's say a man is in a state of grace on Monday. On Tuesday morning, he finds that his wife is committing adultery. He gets angry, and then angrier, then picks up an axe and kills the man who slept with his wife. Does he go from fully in grace to hellbound in a day like that?

 

[geocajun]

Yeah, that would be my opinion on it. I just don't see God being well-pleased with you on Monday, you are filled with His spirit, you are His son/daughter, and then you mess up on Tuesday and you go burn in Hell forever.

God has made it sufficiently clear to us through His Church what a sin is, and what the concequences are, and mans need for contrition for his sins.
It is concievable that someone could walk out of sacramental confession and have something affect him emotionally so strong that he acts against his conscience and commits a mortal sin - clearly this is not sane, but still concievable.
At that point, it isn't God who cuts that person off, but that person who cuts themself off from God. Remember, God calls us to come to him, but we are the ones who resists. It isn't God pushing us away is my point.
Remember that Justice is giving someone what is owed to them. If a person consciously knew something was a mortal sin, and did it anyway, they have earned the seperation of themselves from God.

When we are in a state of mortal sin, God reaches out to us with preveniant graces trying to get us to repent.
So if this person now was dying, and could not go to sacramental confession, but they were truely contrite in their heart, then God would forgive them - it just would not be sacramental (a visible sign.... and therefore they could not receive communion until they received the sacrament.)

 

[geocajun]

Let's say a man is in a state of grace on Monday. On Tuesday morning, he finds that his wife is committing adultery. He gets angry, and then angrier, then picks up an axe and kills the man who slept with his wife. Does he go from fully in grace to hellbound in a day like that?

if he is guilty of a mortal sin, yes.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Again, I think using an extreme- like murder is a bad illustration. In this example-- I don't think the man is acting with total freedom- if his action is emotionally driven. That FULL freedom has to be in place in order for a person to sin mortally. I'm not saying the guy isn't committing sin- it just may not be mortal.

Aren't there lots of less extreme cases where people commit mortal sin? Even those who have a deep relationship with the Lord? I know for me over the past few years of going to daily Mass that there have been a couple of Sundays where I missed Mass, and excused it by being tired, and it being too difficult with all of my children without my husband's help-- but I knew it was wrong, and I did it anyway. I committed a mortal sin! It of course took until about 7:00pm to feel convicted and know that I was in need of confessionbefore receiving the Eucharist again.

I dunno- I don't think the most extreme example is necessary to make the point here.

I think if there can be Baptism by intent-- that OUr Lord, in His immense mecry, will take our intent to confess if we were unable to get to confession before death-- if we had true compunction. I don't know if that is what the Church teaches, though!

In the Sacred Heart of Jesus,
Shannon

 

[Benedicta00]

God has made it sufficiently clear to us through His Church what a sin is, and what the concequences are, and mans need for contrition for his sins.
It is concievable that someone could walk out of sacramental confession and have something affect him emotionally so strong that he acts against his conscience and commits a mortal sin - clearly this is not sane, but still concievable.
At that point, it isn't God who cuts that person off, but that person who cuts themself off from God. Remember, God calls us to come to him, but we are the ones who resists. It isn't God pushing us away is my point.
Remember that Justice is giving someone what is owed to them. If a person consciously knew something was a mortal sin, and did it anyway, they have earned the seperation of themselves from God.

When we are in a state of mortal sin, God reaches out to us with preveniant graces trying to get us to repent.
So if this person now was dying, and could not go to sacramental confession, but they were truely contrite in their heart, then God would forgive them - it just would not be sacramental (a visible sign.... and therefore they could not receive communion until they received the sacrament.)

And to put another twist on it. If a person is in grace on Monday and falls away on Tuesday, there is no obligation on God’s part to keep granting special graces to the person that would ensure their perseverance or a death bed contrition.

He calls everyone to repent but the hard of heart have been given themselves over to his or her own evil and God respects their free will. One of the reasons why Paul says to work out Salvation with fear and trembling. You can’t take for granted that you won’t hand yourself over to evil, with each mortal sin, you run the risk of being blinded by sin and God is not obligated to wake you up before death, he calls you to repent but is not obligated to make you repent.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Let's say a man is in a state of grace on Monday. On Tuesday morning, he finds that his wife is committing adultery. He gets angry, and then angrier, then picks up an axe and kills the man who slept with his wife. Does he go from fully in grace to hellbound in a day like that?

I suppose so...

 

[Benedicta00]

I suppose so...

Not necessarily. You are only hell bound if you do not repent and seek mercy. Hellhounds are the ones who want nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. If a doctor came to heal you of a terminal illness and you said to him, ‘I want nothing to do with you’ what will happen? The person will die.

Is it possible for a person who is close to God to pop up one day and decided this? Yes it is. It is a reality that there are those who live in a repent, sin, repeat cycle all their lives because they seek mercy but do not cooperate with the grace to develop virtue.

With every mortal sin we commit, we lose virtue. Liken to a alcoholic, who is sober for 10 years, if he binges once, he lost all that sobriety over the last 10 years, he is back to square one. Same goes for us. If we do not, as Jesus says when we clean out our house (confession) of the 7 demons, (7 deadly sins) do not replace vice with virtue and the fruits of the Spirit, the demons come back and “the last state of that man is worse than the first.”

Can a grace filled person on Monday commit murder on Tuesday? Yes. If he never learned to develop the virtue of patience or humility, it is possible for him to lose control, give into his disordered passions and hurt someone in a fit of rage. What will land him in hell is refusal to seek mercy and repent.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Interesting! So when Jesus spoke about the 7 unclean spirits it was really 7 sins?

That makes sense...

 

[Benedicta00]

Interesting! So when Jesus spoke about the 7 unclean spirits it was really 7 sins?

That makes sense...

Yes. And IIRC Mary Magdalene was said to have 7 demons, that means she struggled and suffered from the 7 deadly sins.

We ALL suffer from them; they are the wounds of original sin. Jesus came and broke their power by opening the gates of grace and mercy but we have free will. We have to cooperate with the grace; just seeking mercy isn’t enough if we want to be healed of these wounds. Jesus came and said, it is best that He goes so He can send us the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our source of strength. Jesus won for us the Holy Spirit but we have to be open to the His gifts and develop these fruits, This is how we are delivered from the demons.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Very good commentary...thanks.