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Anyway , I would be interested in discussing this more. So I will think about starting another thread and re-wording things.
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Do not make the mistake of thinking that everyone on these fora think the same. We do not! May I suggest to you that as this thread has been totally derailed you re-start with a new thread with an identical OP (though a different title, to avoid confusion) and see how that works? As you have seen, Lulav and I have already raised a question about it that may be worth debate, at leastMaybe YM or another will help with the Hebrew/Aramaic question now the fuss has died down.
PS It is always worth looking at the Hebrew and not just trusting the translator! Did you really expect the non-Messianic fora to agree with that (except, maybe, some who understand true purpose of good exegesis)?
As for abusing the Hebrew language. A little more respect of the Hebrew from your end would be appreciated by me. I love the Hebrew language. Your tone in your posts cheapens it into something less than the sacred language that it is.
Whilst I may not agree with all that is in the OP, I have sought to support you against the strong views on your OP, as you will see in my posts, but I have no wish to argue with individual posters on that point because it will simply further derail the thread and cause more problems.
I would agree here. While I don't think all that much of the OP's topic myself (it's not the sort of thing I find terribly important) I do think it is a good thing that it was posted for those who might want to enter into a discussion on the topic and for comments in general. I seriously hope no one is taking issue with the right to post itself, are they?I am not at all sure that the vast majority of people on this forum would take issue with your right to share with us something you have found. Whether it is word perfect or not, whether in English, Hebrew or Aramaic is something that can be debated as people feel it necessary to comment, hopefully in a constructive way so that we can all learn more.
Agreed.I see nothing in what has been posted thus far that should make you feel that you should leave the forum or CF - we all get into rough water at times because that is part and parcel of the way all fora work. Do not be discouraged by one sharp reaction.
I am used to many in the church brushing aside anything but a simplistic interpretation of the scriptures that leads to an " i'm o.k. , you're o.k. , so who cares about the rest. " type of thinking. I do not think I will ever understand it though. But I do expect many in the non messianic forums to mostly reject the idea of anything beyond reading the message bible. But hope springs eternal , as they say.
G-d died a human death and not a complete death. G-d is Spirit. Yeshua is G-d and Yeshua was nailed to the cross.
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man
There's the first of the Christological heresies I was waiting for. A denial of the incarnation and a confounding of the Godhead.
God the Son died on the Cross- this is Christian doctrine. Death is a function of the body, not the spirit. The incarnation united God the Son with a body from His mother, the union was real, true, and one. The body of God the Son was slain, thus God the Son was slain. He died, and was buried and raised from the dead. At no stage has the church ever taught that the eternal spirit of God died. To raise this as an objection is to raise an objection to a doctrine that doesn't exist.
Read on?
Are you referring to my quote? How do you jump from Numbers to Philippians?
This did not become a 'heresy' until the third century. It was not what was believed by Yeshua's talmidim.
Basically what you are saying is that 'G-d's body' died on the cross. But G-d does not have a body, so how can that be so?
I agree. Yitzchak, as I said earlier - if (the eternal spirit of) G_d died, who raised Yeshua from the dead and who sustains the world to this day, and to whom do you pray and offer worship - a dead G_d?
You can't have it both ways round
I'm confused by your response. Are you affirming the doctrine of the incarnation and the Trinity (which dissolves the objection you mention) or something else?
I'll repeat, G-d, HaShem, was NOT nailed to a cross.
You cannot nail an eternal spirit being to anything.
It was always a heresy- that's why it was later officially condemned when the church finally had the chance to meet as one without being persecuted. The church believed before it wrote.
That is your choice to believe that, I don't, there is too much historical evidence that wasn't totally surpressed.Jesus' disciples never believed the heresy, and the NT teaches the hypostatic union in many places, and it was written by His disciples.
Taught in the 'NT'.God does have a body, certainly since the incarnation. You are clearly denying the doctrine of the incarnation, taught in the NT, typified in the OT both in language and theophany and believed by all Christians since the beginning.
Who's Arius?That's fine- at least you are consistent, and if you choose to believe the 3rd century doctrine of Arius and his cronies, that is fine.
Why are you quoting this? that doesn't describe what I believe, are you accusing me of this?One of Jesus' disciples said:
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Heresy is a controversial or novel change to a system of beliefs, especially a religion, that conflicts with established dogma, and since the dogma wasn't established until Nicaea, then your rebuttal doesn't hold.
The gentile 'church' did, but not the Jewish church.
That is your choice to believe that, I don't, there is too much historical evidence that wasn't totally surpressed.
Taught in the 'NT'.
Believed by all Christians? I guess that depends on how you define 'all' and 'Christians'.
Who's Arius?
I believe the first century teachings of Messiah.
Why are you quoting this? that doesn't describe what I believe, are you accusing me of this?
Messiah, the promised servant, the right hand, the son of G-d.
So to clarify. You are saying G-d was not nailed to the cross? You are saying that the son of G-d was nailed to the cross ?
Do you believe in the Trinity ? The Deity of Yeshua ?
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