The Hard Questions

[Estrid]

You are wrong. I do know that there is a God. I first saw God in creation, in the stars to be precise. I was 16. I'd never read the read the Bible. It says that the heavens declare the glory of God. I did not know God then, but I knew that God was real.

If I look at a Constable painting, I know that it did not just happen. I don't know the artist, of course. I can tell it was painted by someone with enormous talent and skill. God displays His nature and character through what He has made. Some years later, as I've said, I came to know God as a real person.

If you really want to know, you can ask God to reveal Himself to you. A friend of mine did that. He was not sure that God was real, so he asked God to let him know. He had his first miracle that night, before he was saved. God answered my prayer when I was 12 years old. It was so clearly a miracle that I freaked. I did my best to rationalise it away, but I could not. So yes, God is real, He can be known and He will reveal Himself to those who really want to know. And there is the root of the problem. Most people would rather not know, so they never ask and so never find out.

I dont doubt your sincerity.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I dont doubt your sincerity.

A neat and polite deflection from the issue. However, your eternal destiny is at stake. Sincerity is no guarantee of correctness. We are not trying to sell you anything, take advantage of you in any way or even get a pat on the back from God. For your own sake, please don't brush our words aside.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Of course. But why tell me?

So you don't feel like the Lone Ranger.

 

[Estrid]

A neat and polite deflection from the issue. However, your eternal destiny is at stake. Sincerity is no guarantee of correctness. We are not trying to sell you anything, take advantage of you in any way or even get a pat on the back from God. For your own sake, please don't brush our words aside.

We see this in totally different ways.
I am not much for "deflection".

I'm confrontational by nature and not
really a very nice person.
You though are being nice to me.
I wish to respond in kind.

Especially so as i have in me a huge reservoir of
hostility toward men. Its unfortunately way too
easy to incite me to take it out on someone.

Another is, this is hardly a free- speech zone
and i dont wish to be expelled for saying
something that oversteps the traces in any way.

Heres the thing. I see it that the religion
calls on me to believe things that just are not true.

Noahs ark, say. There is no way i can ever
believe it.
So what am i to do? Pretend to believe it?
Nobody ever thought it was true but the bible just says it
anyway? Why would the book just say things?
What else isnt true?

According to Islam, i am setting myself up for being
hung by my hair in eternal fire because i go about in public
with my hair uncovered.

I cannot pretend to believe that either.

There is no "deflection" in that, though i was politely
suggesting we agree to disagree..

 

[Estrid]

So you don't feel like the Lone Ranger.

Hi yo silver.

I did spend a month at an American ranch, they had me
involved in all sorts of ranch activities.
Including western hat, cowgirl boots a size too big, and a
super gentle patient horse.

I really dont look the part of a cowgirl. Or cowboy.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Heres the thing. I see it that the religion
calls on me to believe things that just are not true.

Noahs ark, say. There is no way i can ever
believe it.
So what am i to do? Pretend to believe it?
Nobody ever thought it was true but the bible just says it
anyway? Why would the book just say things?
What else isnt true?

Of course the flood that most believe the bible describes isn't true, but what about the flood that the bible actually describes?

 

[Estrid]

Of course the flood that most believe the bible describes isn't true, but what about the flood that the bible actually describes?

As a non christian reading it, it says a guy spent a hundred years building a
boat, the entire world flooded and only his family and the animals on board survived.

You have a different idea?

 

[Aussie Pete]

We see this in totally different ways.
I am not much for "deflection".

I'm confrontational by nature and not
really a very nice person.
You though are being nice to me.
I wish to respond in kind.

Especially so as i have in me a huge reservoir of
hostility toward men. Its unfortunately way too
easy to incite me to take it out on someone.

Another is, this is hardly a free- speech zone
and i dont wish to be expelled for saying
something that oversteps the traces in any way.

Heres the thing. I see it that the religion
calls on me to believe things that just are not true.

Noahs ark, say. There is no way i can ever
believe it.
So what am i to do? Pretend to believe it?
Nobody ever thought it was true but the bible just says it
anyway? Why would the book just say things?
What else isnt true?

According to Islam, i am setting myself up for being
hung by my hair in eternal fire because i go about in public
with my hair uncovered.

I cannot pretend to believe that either.

There is no "deflection" in that, though i was politely
suggesting we agree to disagree..

OK, I understand your position. I had similar, but rather less polite, conversations with my father. He was an avowed atheist. I could respond to every question that you have, including Noah's Ark. But there is always one more objection. And it becomes pointless after a time. So I'll leave you to your thoughts. Perhaps deep down you are not as confident as you appear. Ask yourself why you are coming on this forum, for example.

 

[Estrid]

OK, I understand your position. I had similar, but rather less polite, conversations with my father. He was an avowed atheist. I could respond to every question that you have, including Noah's Ark. But there is always one more objection. And it becomes pointless after a time. So I'll leave you to your thoughts. Perhaps deep down you are not as confident as you appear. Ask yourself why you are coming on this forum, for example.

That " why" question is so cliche.
There's a lot in the world besides day and night,
God and atheism.

So cliche also is the "there'd just be another".

"Nice diversion".
And the auto - assumption that i lack
intellectual integrity. YOu think about it. Thats exactly what it is.


The ark - people defend it all the way across the spectrum,
from 100% fact (God says so) to 100% metaphor to the middle
with a local flood and a farmers raft.
And they can "explain" every one of them.

I do t believe there is any explanation for a false
story in a True book that does not bring the meaning of
"TRUE" into doubt and disrepute.
But-
If you have the answer, share it.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

As a non christian reading it, it says a guy spent a hundred years building a
boat, the entire world flooded and only his family and the animals on board survived.

You have a different idea?

Noah didn't build it himself, there were easily thousands of workers involved. And it wasn't a "boat" (or a "ship"), it was an ark; a boxlike three story floating building.

 

[Estrid]

Noah didn't build it himself, there were easily thousands of workers involved. And it wasn't a "boat" (or a "ship"), it was an ark; a boxlike three story floating building.

Thats only a distionction without a difference.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Thats only a distionction without a difference.

It is when you drill down deeper into the arguments. The flood story is universally misunderstood, even by most Christians.

 

[Estrid]

It is when you drill down deeper into the arguments. The flood story is universally misunderstood, even by most Christians.

If you actually drilled down you'd find its just a story,
never happened.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

If you actually drilled down you'd find its just a story,
never happened.

Not if the arguments against it are debunked.

 

[Estrid]

Not if the arguments against it are debunked.

That is true of everything in the universe. MightY big IF.

So what do you think happened?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That is true of everything in the universe. MightY big IF.

So what do you think happened?

I believe it happened just the way the story says it happened. It must be noted that it was also a supernatural event, so some parts cannot be explained (kinda like bumblebees flying).

 

[Estrid]

I believe it happened just the way the story says it happened. It must be noted that it was also a supernatural event, so some parts cannot be explained (kinda like bumblebees flying).

So you figure the polar ice was like frozen,in place it didnt float
the way ice usually does

 

[Deade]

Hello Phyllis, welcome to CF.

I hope you'll enjoy your stay here.

 

[BobRyan]

Leaving me free to choose, if such is even the case, is not
exactly helping, any more than i help a penguin to catch fish,
by not putting him in a zoo- imo.

But i see your way of thinking

you are contrasting "eternal life" with "hole in the ground" and saying that the hole in the ground looks better - right??

And you also appear to be contrasting "free will" granted to you by God -- vs -- "robot with no will and it is determined by chemistry alone).

As an atheist your basic argument appears to be that rocks dust and gas "have the physical properties" to produce thought,self-awareness, and emotion over time - I am sure you can see how that would be a "hard sale" to make to Christians.

===============

Scenario 1:
If one takes the Christian option for "eternal life" and yet is "wrong" - so the atheists great reward of "hole in the ground" is all there really is in reality. Then all the life of the Christian they are praising God for His blessing and protection only to get "hole in the ground" maximun-reward of atheist in the end. In this scenario even the atheist admits the Christian will not wake up to "regret" in his/her hole-in-ground - because there is no dissappiontment suffering awareness or regret there. Both the atheist and the Christian get the maximum atheist-reward in that case.

Scenario 2:

If one takes the atheist great reward of "hole-in-ground" and yet "is wrong" - so then the Christian option would have been the right choice -- then one experiences a great deal "of regret" on many levels as the outcome.

====================

Conclusion: -- the is only one way to "lose" in those two scenarios.

 

[BobRyan]

I have recently wondered... the more we learn even in Christianity... does it make it that much harder for people to see their own sins? Let's say, a person has learned scripture, and has become 90-99 percent correct throughout their life. (For I dare say no one but God Himself is 100 percent correct). Then, does it make it harder for a person even 99 percent correct to admit to sin?.... for he/she may feel he/she is almost always right (or think they are always right)? But even if we are 99 percent right.

Let's say you are driving down the road and are 99% correct about exactly where the middle of your lane is... are you now even more aware of times when your veer slightly off center or are you less aware of deviating from it now that you have 99% accuracy in knowing exactly where your wheels are on the road relative to its exact center???

You seem to be saying that the more accuracy you have in knowing the exact standard - the less accurate you are in knowing how you measure up to it. Does that make sense in normal life? does life work that way in your POV?