The Greatest Struggle

Galatea said:

Why? Is religion only for betterment? Or is it a philosophical belief. Plus, one can have a profound change in one’s soul with no corresponding change in behavior.

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Interesting how an atheist is giving us advice on our beliefs. Must be bored with no cable tv

primarymay said:

It is foolish to stake something so mind alterering to just belief.

You can screw yourself up badly by believing in invisible concepts. Our mind's are adapted to sensory information.

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Well I will think long and hard about that now .......

Since you have no experience with God or belief, I think it’s foolish for you to even be in this conversation acting like you have any insight into anything. Don’t you believe that you came from fish guts and are a living accident. Some result of an organism somewhere banging into something?

That sounds logical and splendid. Happy for you.

I have to say that reading many of the posts from Christians on this thread I wonder what it is they get up to in their lives that has so many of them drowning in guilt and low self-esteem. Just an observation!

Par5 said:

I have to say that reading many of the posts from Christians on this thread I wonder what it is they get up to in their lives that has so many of them drowning in guilt and low self-esteem. Just an observation!

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What it is is when an aetheist does t respect our right to believe and to respectfully ask questions but comes in here acting like our faith is some mental aside we created in our minds and is bogus.

We don’t need to be martyrs to those who have no purpose in learning or understanding.

If there is no baseline respect, nothing to build upon. That’s not low self esteem or guilt. See Webster ‘s dictionary for definitions of the words you used. If you need the link let me know.

primarymay said:

Why is god for us humans synonymous with believing?

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im not sure i understand you but check my signature link for an interesting evidence.

ToBeLoved said:

What it is is when an aetheist does t respect our right to believe and to respectfully ask questions but comes in here acting like our faith is some mental aside we created in our minds and is bogus.

We don’t need to be martyrs to those who have no purpose in learning or understanding.

If there is no baseline respect, nothing to build upon. That’s not low self esteem or guilt. See Webster ‘s dictionary for definitions of the words you used. If you need the link let me know.

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Like I said, just an observation, an accurate one if I may say so. You are entitled to disagree. As for anything in my post that said you didn't have the right to believe and that your faith is some mental aside you created in your minds, I couldn't see that anywhere. Must have been something you created in your mind!

Par5 said:

Like I said, just an observation, an accurate one if I may say so. You are entitled to disagree. As for anything in my post that said you didn't have the right to believe and that your faith is some mental aside you created in your minds, I couldn't see that anywhere. Must have been something you created in your mind!

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Well if you need that link to a dictionary to help you with words I can link to it for you to educate yourself.

Just like to note that I’m not visiting an aetheist forum. You are visiting a Christian one which makes no sense that you would have nothing to say but come here only to insult us. You aetneiats must have a really boring life that this is how you spend a Saturday

ToBeLoved said:

Well if you need that link to a dictionary to help you with words I can link to it for you to educate yourself.

Just like to note that I’m not visiting an aetheist forum. You are visiting a Christian one which makes no sense that you would have nothing to say but come here only to insult us. You aetneiats must have a really boring life that this is how you spend a Saturday

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My but you are touchy. If what I said made you feel insulted then you are very thin skinned or maybe one of those Christians who has low self-esteem as I mentioned before.
This is a forum that welcomes the participation of non-Christians, whether you like that fact or not. We don't live in a theocracy and as for your offer to provide a link, thanks but no thanks, I am well enough educated, well enough to recognize self-righteousness when I see it. Have a nice day!

primarymay said:

Hmm, and I thought personal transformation was Jesus business.
If you only believe because of the promise of heaven then your holding onto a thread.

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I don't think it's either.

Jesus doesn't promise "personal transformation" (which I suspect can mean whatever we would like it to mean), but the point of Christianity isn't "going to heaven" either.

Christianity is about a specific confession: some of the core aspects of that confession can be found in the historic Creeds (i.e. the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds), where we have come together to say "We believe...". At the center here is Jesus Christ, Who He is, What He is, and everything He said and did.

Christianity isn't about being more successful, or more moral, or various kinds of self-improvement. It's about this confession of who Jesus is, and what Jesus has done, and what that means for the world. That isn't to say that it won't change us, Christianity taken seriously will change us; not in the sense that we'll become suddenly this more superior moral sort of person--but if we take Jesus seriously it will make us deeply uncomfortable, it will demand more from us, it will call us to change the way we look at the world and those around us. Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer, one of the leaders of the anti-Nazi underground Church in Germany, in his seminal work The Cost of Discipleship writes, "When Christ calls a man, He bids him come and die." Because to take Jesus seriously places the cross firmly center, and it will demand our own life, perhaps metaphorically, perhaps literally--but it will ultimately accept nothing other than us, whole and entire.

No, the point isn't that we get to "go to heaven", because the Christian hope isn't in dying and going to a place called "heaven", the Christian hope is that God is going to make good on His promises and rescue and heal the whole world. Our life everlasting isn't as disembodied spirits up "in heaven" (though that is what modern pop-theology often suggests), but resurrection, bodily resurrection, and the renewal of all creation. The point is, therefore, that God is indeed doing this, and that's what Jesus means, and that's why Christians are called to live their life in Christ, to confess Him. Confessing that our hope is found solely in Him, and that He commands our very lives to His will--to love our neighbor, to feed the hungry, to give drink to the thirsty. To see "the least of these" as "My brothers" as Christ Himself calls them, and to see Jesus in the lowly, the hurting, the mistreated, the hungry, the poor. To understand that God is for the least, and that the kingdom of God means the least are greatest, that the last are first, that "the greatest among you is your slave".

Ultimately being a Christian is really about following Jesus. Not merely saying "Jesus", but setting our gaze ahead to Him, to follow Him, and cling to the cross. Being a Christian is not about reward, neither in this life or the next, it's about being a loser and discovering the gain that comes in losing.

-CryptoLutheran

Par5 said:

My but you are touchy. If what I said made you feel insulted then you are very thin skinned or maybe one of those Christians who has low self-esteem as I mentioned before.
This is a forum that welcomes the participation of non-Christians, whether you like that fact or not. We don't live in a theocracy and as for your offer to provide a link, thanks but no thanks, I am well enough educated, well enough to recognize self-righteousness when I see it. Have a nice day!

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I don’t mind the participation of non Christians. It was about what he was saying that there was no conversation in it.

I’ve had conversations with many aetheists here and long ones. Filled with mutual respect
And learning.

So no. You are way off

ToBeLoved said:

Interesting how an atheist is giving us advice on our beliefs. Must be bored with no cable tv

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He is only looking for a real Christian. I mean, as in actually walking the walk- not just talking the talk. It is alright, I am not angry at him.

Par5 said:

I have to say that reading many of the posts from Christians on this thread I wonder what it is they get up to in their lives that has so many of them drowning in guilt and low self-esteem. Just an observation!

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Look, I make absolutely no bones about being screwed up- but that was before I was saved. Believe it or not, I was suicidal before I was saved. I fantasized about killing myself every day, many times a day. I did not know how close I was to killing myself until years later in college. I found out in a psychology class that one’s chances of killing one’s self goes up exponentionally if one writes a suicide letter.

I had written many. I remember sitting in the lecture hall and thinking “I did not know how close I was”. If I had not gotten saved, I’d probably be on drugs right now, or dead.

As screwed up as I am, I was more screwed up before salvation.

I wish you could time travel and see that 11 year old kid, or look into her head and see what was inside. Pretty thoughts, of taking a gun and blowing her father’s brains out and blood all over the stairs.

primarymay said:

The greatest struggle I had when I was a Christian, was that I saw no visible results in myself or my life when I believed in Jesus.

This was a big issue for me, and forced me to confront the reality that this particular god would not transform me, inside and out.

Strangely enough it was only after I abandoned the faith that I made progress. I don't know why it ended up this way, instead of the other way.
I still have a few issues, but I don't trust Jesus to finish what I started.

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probably many of us use God as an excuse to do nothing but then again what is there to do? how did you progress in life? is there anything of value? I don't see how anything could have value if everything ends. I don't think this world is worth existing over, i'm bored of it. I want the ultimate. if that is death then i'm fooling myself if I keep living.

thankfully we all know that all shall die but how or should I even orient myself in life at all if there is nothing worth existing over? like a slave should I love that I succeeded or failed due to my genetics and due to the biology which pushes me this and that way?

do people who truly love God and who know God as goodness and truth, love and wisdom.... do those people really commit evils to others? I don't think so. only blind devils do such things.

Noxot said:

probably many of us use God as an excuse to do nothing but then again what is there to do? how did you progress in life? is there anything of value? I don't see how anything could have value if everything ends. I don't think this world is worth existing over, i'm bored of it. I want the ultimate. if that is death then i'm fooling myself if I keep living.

thankfully we all know that all shall die but how or should I even orient myself in life at all if there is nothing worth existing over? like a slave should I love that I succeeded or failed due to my genetics and due to the biology which pushes me this and that way?

do people who truly love God and who know God as goodness and truth, love and wisdom.... do those people really commit evils to others? I don't think so. only blind devils do such things.

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It is difficult to understand the mindset of people like you. You don't think your existence in this world has any worth and that you are bored with the world and that you are thankful that you are going to die. A right little bundle of joy, aren't you?
I have more than enough to make me value my existence. My family, my wife, my children, my grandchildren, my friends, and my good health. If you have any of these in your life, then your attitude is an insult to them all.
Oh, and one more thing that I consider a bonus in life. I'm not like you!

Par5 said:

It is difficult to understand the mindset of people like you. You don't think your existence in this world has any worth and that you are bored with the world and that you are thankful that you are going to die. A right little bundle of joy, aren't you?
I have more than enough to make me value my existence. My family, my wife, my children, my grandchildren, my friends, and my good health. If you have any of these in your life, then your attitude is an insult to them all.
Oh, and one more thing that I consider a bonus in life. I'm not like you!

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we all are what we are but even if I was a devil it would have been for the only reason that could matter which fuels us in different ways and I too am happy to not be you.

your good health will not last. your family shall in your eyes be forever lost to you, and that won't matter because you yourself are basically nothing at all, which is all a blessing for Gods sake, for I know the games he plays with the ones he loves.

Noxot said:

your good health will not last. your family shall in your eyes be forever lost to you, and that won't matter because you yourself are basically nothing at all, which is all a blessing for Gods sake, for I know the games he plays with the ones he loves.

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You are so typical of hardcore Christians. Totally lacking in human empathy. The games you believe your god plays with you must be games that mess up your mind!

Par5 said:

You are so typical of hardcore Christians. Totally lacking in human empathy. The games you believe your god plays with you must be games that mess up your mind!

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you have a shoddy perception of me that is not at all true.

edit:

for one I was talking about God playing with you, not me. but I can see why you would be offended at what i said even though all I did was repeat how I see atheist metaphysical assumptions about reality... which have a impact upon how a person will act in the world though I suppose atheist can still manage to find enough meaning to find worth in this universe. but after knowing God I can't turn back. the atheist way then becomes unbearable and utterly distasteful to me.

I myself don't care if someone is an atheist or a christian. that is obviously not the fundamental thing God looks for in people despite how many christians think that is what matters. it only matters in the realest sense which is why many christians so strongly defend what we feel is real even if many of us are ignorant of the depths of why and only cling to superficial symbols rather than the reality. in some ways atheist have an advantage and in some ways christians do. it just depends on the person I suppose.


yes family and friends are good but to try to have that nested in the atheist world view is simply not powerful enough for all of us. many of us have few or no friends and terrible family members. when my family and friends matter to God it makes me take things more seriously and it also makes me see that God loves those I have not built up attachments to be they my enemies or be they people that I don't even know. but atheist can do the same if they are of the right spirit.