• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The greatest mega church and wealthiest in history.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Always in His Presence

Jesus is the only Way
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
49,767
17,942
Broken Arrow, OK
✟1,047,963.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Pope Francis has dedicated his life to ministry since 1950 and is fully deserving whatever he gets.

But to say a man who wear vestments costing tens of thousands of dollars, who wear Mitre laden in gold and gems - who sits ruling a kingdom on a golden throne, surrounded by hundreds of people who serve him - whose home is in a palace, ride in Airbus 350's and Maybach's is more acceptable that a Pastor who is worth 1/1000 of him. Is indeed a paradox
 
Upvote 0

Always in His Presence

Jesus is the only Way
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
49,767
17,942
Broken Arrow, OK
✟1,047,963.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Have you acknowledged that Trinity Church New York is Episcopalian and not Catholic. Just the facts.
I so acknowledge - does that make it better?

Please also show an audit of the Roman Catholic Church.

Can you acknowledge the Roman Catholic Church does not provide financial reports?
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
22,753
19,758
Flyoverland
✟1,361,685.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Maybe.
They're not there to see a crucifix, they're there to see the Pope.
Probably, but the crucifix is there to pull us back to the eternal verities. It's there to remind the priest at the mass too.
And what about this? Does this make it any better?:

694940094001_6105681436001_6105685978001-vs.jpg
Maybe.
Does this qualify as a crucifix?

03627181.jpg
No way. I know where that is and my preference for the building is a serious interior redecoration. Or maybe a simple demolition. The building is hideous.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
22,753
19,758
Flyoverland
✟1,361,685.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
I am using it correctly - thanks

Particularly the 'paradoxical'

Def:
paradoxical

adjective​

  1. Of the nature of a paradox.
  2. Inclined to paradoxes, or to tenets or notions contrary to received opinions.
  3. Having self-contradictory properties.
You lost me. I don't buy that you have identified anything qualifying as a conundrum. Maybe you really think so but you haven't convinced me. Sorry. Maybe someone else can plainly explain the conundrum you think you see.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
22,753
19,758
Flyoverland
✟1,361,685.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Any church that says they have over 1 billion members is a megachurch to me. Remember - we are speaking about the Roman Catholic CHURCH
A megachurch is a big church building with lots of people who go into the building on a given weekend. 2000 or more people. That's sort of the standard definition. You clearly have something else in mind. IF you want us to choose use your non-standard definition then you owe us the spelling out of your non-standard definition. Otherwise it's all 'Alice in Wonderland'.

Yes, the Catholic Church is large. That's not the point with the standard definition of megachurch. Yes, St. Peter's basilica in Rome is large. That would qualify as a megachurch. But the whole Catholic Church isn't, not unless we all agree to your non-standard definition all of a sudden..
 
  • Like
Reactions: RileyG
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
22,753
19,758
Flyoverland
✟1,361,685.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Pope Francis has dedicated his life to ministry since 1950 and is fully deserving whatever he gets.

But to say a man who wear vestments costing tens of thousands of dollars, who wear Mitre laden in gold and gems - who sits ruling a kingdom on a golden throne, surrounded by hundreds of people who serve him - whose home is in a palace, ride in Airbus 350's and Maybach's is more acceptable that a Pastor who is worth 1/1000 of him. Is indeed a paradox
Pope John Paul II had nothing but some papers to pass on when he died. I don't know if he ever owned a car. Pope Benedict sold his VW Jetta (I think it was a Jetta)when he became pope. He left behind a sizeable library. Pope Francis as far as I know never owned a car. I don't know what he has as his possessions. We will know soon enough.

Previous popes lived in the Papal apartments, ten rooms total. I've heard it described as unbearably cold in the winter and unbearably hot in the summer. Pope Francis lives instead in Domus Sanctae Marthae, a fairly modest hotel, where he lives in room 201 with two Swiss Guards outside the door. Neither are Buckingham Palace. You should have known pope Francis lives in Domus Sanctae Marthae, telling us about his vestments and cars and private jets and all of that. By the way, about his airplane, he charters one. The Vatican does not own an airplane. So they charter one based on needs. Other than the official Vatican entourage, there is usually a press pool onboard covering the trip. The size of the aircraft will depend on the length of the journey. For short- and medium-haul routes, an Airbus A320 or A321 has traditionally been chosen for the mission. Similarly, longer missions have used the A330 or the Boeing 777 (although ITA has retired the latter in favor of A350s). For the Pope's most recent visit to Canada in July, he traveled across the Atlantic on one of ITA's Airbus A330-200s.

I wonder how many megachurch pastors and TV ministers have their own airplanes? That IS the norm, isn't it?
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
22,753
19,758
Flyoverland
✟1,361,685.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
I so acknowledge - does that make it better?
Yes it does. It means you take truth seriously.
Please also show an audit of the Roman Catholic Church.
My parish, or my diocese, or every diocese, or the Vatican as a whole, or each dicastery, or what? For my parish and diocese I could probably pull that off. But each diocese is independent and that would be a bear to collect. As to the Vatican, as I mentioned to you earlier, Cardinal Pell was working to get that all figured out. AND I also sent you information about pillarcatholic.com where there are abundant reports on Vatican finance. Have you looked at any of that yet?
Can you acknowledge the Roman Catholic Church does not provide financial reports?
No. I can say that the many Vatican offices have various reports of varying accuracy and various caches that never make the reports. You COULD check out the Pillar for more information on this. But then it would lose you propaganda position when you can just insist we provide a report to you.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,434
2,362
Perth
✟202,016.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
The church has vast assets, including billions in real estate and some priceless art
With 1.36 billion people going to churches it is no surprise that there are a lot of church buildings for them. However, you will not find an individual bishop or pope with vast personal wealth, yes popes can live in comparative luxury in the papal apartments in the Vatican City, but that is not personal wealth, it is the trappings of office like being a President of the USA has trappings.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RileyG
Upvote 0

mourningdove~

"Pray, and prepare ..."
Site Supporter
Dec 24, 2005
10,860
4,141
✟696,471.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
So, I see the conundrum as this:

Why it is okay for the Roman Catholic Church to be the wealthiest mega church in the world, where many are focused more on their leader (the pope) than Jesus ... and yet many say it is not okay for a Protestant Church to be a wealthy mega church, where many are focused more on their leader than Jesus?

I personally see no difference. Both are wealthy mega churches with too much focus on a man.

But many threads do seem to get posted on CF, calling out the Protestant mega churches for their wealth and focus on man, while not acknowledging that the Catholic Church is guilty of the very same thing

I don't see this thread as picking on Catholicism.
I see it as pointing out some hypocrisy.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
22,753
19,758
Flyoverland
✟1,361,685.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
So, I see the conundrum as this:

Why it is okay for the Roman Catholic Church to be the wealthiest mega church in the world, where many are focused more on their leader (the pope) than Jesus ... and yet many say it is not okay for a Protestant Church to be a wealthy mega church, where many are focused more on their leader than Jesus?

I personally see no difference. Both are wealthy mega churches with too much focus on a man.

But many threads do seem to get posted on CF, calling out the Protestant mega churches for their wealth and focus on man, while not acknowledging that the Catholic Church is guilty of the very same thing

I don't see this thread as picking on Catholicism.
I see it as pointing out some hypocrisy.
Well, it's not actually a conundrum. Because all sorts of people point out the excesses of Protestant megachurch TV evangelists. Atheists do it, agnostics do it, Protestants do it, Catholics do it. It goes all the way back to Bammy Tae Fakker and the excesses of that whole era. It's probably because they are even more ostentatious than any recent pope has been. But all the same people say the same things about the Catholic Church. Only there we have popes like John Paul I, who was very humble, John Paul II who was the essence of humility, Benedict XVI who would have been happy as a clam as an academic, and even Francis who took the bus in Argentina. Is a lot of it over the top? Yes. Is the Vatican financially mismanaged? Yes. Will it get fixed? Maybe. Maybe not.

As far as being focused more on the pope than Jesus, I don't think that is really the case for most of us. I can go and see Jesus and it's a short drive or a long walk. And I do, with regularity. I'm not going to go half-way around the world to see a pope. If he was coming to my city I might just go, but I wouldn't go 500 miles out of my way to see him. I would go around the world to see Jesus, except I can go right to my parish to see Him. Which I have said that I do regularly. My focus has been for decades on Jesus. The guy in the Vatican gets a bit of attention, but by comparison it's small. Even for popes who have been my mentors like JPII and BXVI.

I think this thread is an attack on Catholics, and I can see that it plays well. But the focus on 'conundrum' has been silly and misusing the 'megachurch' label has missed the mark. Seems that nobody likes megachurches, but not all of them are bad despite the propaganda value of making them all out to be bad. The bad ones have forgotten Jesus and gotten rich in the process. Have Catholics forgotten Jesus? Some, I suppose. They should attend to Jesus. Have they idolized the pope? A few probably have. They should stop that. Is the Vatican mismanaged financially? Yup. It needs an intervention. The rest of this thread is silly.
 
Upvote 0

jas3

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2023
1,259
901
The South
✟88,081.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Why it is okay for the Roman Catholic Church to be the wealthiest mega church in the world, where many are focused more on their leader (the pope) than Jesus ... and yet many say it is not okay for a Protestant Church to be a wealthy mega church, where many are focused more on their leader than Jesus?

I personally see no difference. Both are wealthy mega churches with too much focus on a man.
I have trouble believing that people can't see a significant difference in the personal wealth of someone like Joel Osteen and the wealth of what in Protestantism would be an entire denomination.
 
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Hands-on Trainee
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Feb 10, 2013
35,512
20,522
29
Nebraska
✟751,071.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
The Catholic Church is the most charitable organization on earth. A vast majority of its wealth is from priceless art that has been produced throughout the ages. The art belongs to the people. It cannot be sold.
 
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Hands-on Trainee
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Feb 10, 2013
35,512
20,522
29
Nebraska
✟751,071.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
NOTE: you will see this thread is NOT an insult to member of the Roman Catholic Church - but a factual look at it's enormous wealth and holdings.

We decided to look at the Catholic Church because with 1.36 billion members around the world, Catholics make up the biggest denomination in the biggest religious group on the planet. It’s also one of the wealthiest.

The church has vast assets, including billions in real estate and some priceless art, not to mention the Vatican Bank. But its finances are largely secret. Tallying that immense wealth is pretty much impossible, according to experts.

But once a dollar is dropped in that basket, where does it go? How are weekly cash contributions that can amount to tens of thousands of dollars accounted for? Where does the money go when a diocese sells a church property for tens of millions of dollars? And what happens when hundreds of millions of dollars are turned over to officials at the highest ranks, no questions asked, for their discretionary use? The Roman Catholic Church is the largest organization in the world. The Vatican has never revealed its net worth,​
“In other words, the Archdiocese of New York will have so many churches, so many schools, so many hospitals, it owns so much real estate,” Berry said. “But very few of the dioceses issue financial statements that would pass muster with a CPA.”
In Australia for an example:

Figures extrapolated from a huge volume of Victorian council valuation data show the church has more than $30 billion in property and other assets, Australia wide.​
Based on these figures, the church is clearly the largest non-government property owner, by value, in the state, and close to the largest in Australia, rivalling giant Westfield, with its vast network of shopping centres and other assets.​
Trinity Church alone has a portfolio worth $6 billion, The New York Times reported in 2019. That’s roughly $7 billion in 2023 dollars for the historic New York church.

The New York Times noted the church is a developer, with a real estate arm that “controls ground leases and office space rentals in the buildings it owns.”

They own a for profit bank:

Financial statements from 2021 show that the Institute for the Works of Religion, also known as the Vatican Bank, earned a net profit of 18.1 million euros. And last year, the Vatican’s former finance minister, Father Juan Antonio Guerrero Alves, spoke with the Vatican News about the Holy See’s financial statements for 2021, revealing that it had 3.9 billion euros in total assets. Adjusted for 2023 dollars, that’s almost $5 billion.​
Then there is grossly under valued artwork:

The Vatican houses tens of thousands of pieces of art in its 26 museums, including the Sistine Chapel, which contains works from some of the most renowned artists in history.​
There’s Raphael’s fresco “The School of Athens” and Michelangelo’s fresco “The Creation of Adam.” In 2004, a Vatican accountant said that St. Peter’s Basilica and the Sistine Chapel were priceless and “listed at a symbolic 1 euro” (or $1.07).​
Of course there is real estate:

The Catholic Church’s property across the globe spans nearly 277,000 square miles, which is just about the size of Texas, said Gerald Posner, author of “God’s Bankers: A History of Money and Power at the Vatican.”
“That includes embassies, churches, cathedrals, monastery schools and convents,” Posner said.​
And some of that real estate is very valuable. Take St. Patrick’s Cathedral in New York, for example. Just imagine how much a developer would value that land, which is in the heart of Fifth Avenue, he said.​
“So we’re talking billions and billions of dollars in terms of real estate,” Posner noted.​

The next time you hear someone bring up wealthy mega churches - the biggest mega church, the church that has more money than any other to the factor of 1,000 times is right outside most peoples doors.
Ever seen the Sistine Chapel in person? St. Peter's Basilica in Rome in person? The Florence Dome in Italy? Or how about the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris? Saint-Chapelle in Paris? Or the Basilica of the Immaculate Conception in DC?

I've been to all of the above.

They're priceless art that only draws our minds to God.

And no, from my perspective, Catholicism isn't a denomination, it's the very Church founded by Christ himself.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FaithT
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Hands-on Trainee
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Feb 10, 2013
35,512
20,522
29
Nebraska
✟751,071.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
I have trouble believing that people can't see a significant difference in the personal wealth of someone like Joel Osteen and the wealth of what in Protestantism would be an entire denomination.
THIS.

And Joyce Meyers.
 
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Hands-on Trainee
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Feb 10, 2013
35,512
20,522
29
Nebraska
✟751,071.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
With 1.36 billion people going to churches it is no surprise that there are a lot of church buildings for them. However, you will not find an individual bishop or pope with vast personal wealth, yes popes can live in comparative luxury in the papal apartments in the Vatican City, but that is not personal wealth, it is the trappings of office like being a President of the USA has trappings.
Ding ding ding!

Winner winner!
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.