"The Greatest Conceivable Being"

[Archaeopteryx]

Ok "we" it is. You all reject them if you reject them. If you think that means that I think you can feign ignorance before God, then you are wrong. But see, we have already covered this.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools....

Yes, we have already covered this. I noted that there is a similar passage in Islam saying that you are without excuse for not assenting to its doctrines.

From the above it seems clear enough to me that:

A. We are all unrighteous, that is you, me, and everyone else.
B. We all suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
C. What can be known about God is manifest to all of us.

Then apologists would be out of the job.

D. How? God shows us.
E. In what way? The things He has made are clearly seen
F. We are without excuse.

These claims are not unique to your religion. See above.

G. We all knew God, but did not glorify Him, neither were thankful (see my signature)
H. We become vain in our imaginations and our hearts are darkened
I. Claiming we are wise, we are really fools.

I don't recall making such a claim?

This tells me that before you and I die, we will have been brought to a place where our unbelief was inexcusable. IOW, it won't be because we did not have enough evidence, but it will be, if we persist in unbelief, because we are unrighteous.

The last time we discussed this, you abandoned the thread. So instead of rehashing the same points only to have you ignore them again, I'll simply direct you to go back to that thread and re-read.

Jesus made claims that no one has ever made about themselves. That was my point. Do you agree or disagree?

Disagree. Many have made such claims.

 

[anonymous person]

there is a similar passage in Islam saying that you are without excuse for not assenting to its doctrines.

I am not familiar with this passage you speak of. I would like to read it if you can supply it.

Then apologists would be out of the job.

Why do you think that?

These claims are not unique to your religion. See above.

I never said they were.

Disagree. Many have made such claims.

This is an interesting truth claim to say the least. Can you supply me with one person who made the same claims Jesus made? I am not aware of any person who ever made the claims Jesus made.

Notice, I am not concerned about you telling me about people who claimed to be God, or men or women who claimed to be some prophet.

Point me to the person who claimed to be all of the following:

1. The Son of God (Matt 26:63-63)

2. The Son of Man (Matt 16:13; Mk 14:62)[1]

3. Giver of eternal life (Jn 10:28)

4. One with the Father (Jn 10:30)

5. One who forgives sin (Mk 2:10)

6. The bread of life (Jn 6:35)

7. The good shepherd (Jn 10:11)

8. The true vine (Jn 15:1)

9. The great "I Am" (Jn 8:58)

10. The giver of living water (Jn 4:10)

11. The light of the World (Jn 8:12)

12. The future Judge (Jn 5:22-23)

13. The lamb of God (Jn 1:36)

14. The baptizer in the Holy Spirit (Lk 3:16)

15. The door of salvation (Jn 10:9)

16. The Savior (Jn 3:14-16)

17. The Messiah (Jn 4:26)

18. The healer (Lk 18:42)


B. The greatest claim: I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me" (Jn 14:6).

This is the cornerstone claim of Jesus because it subsumes all other claims under one of these three categories.

1. The Way

a. Lit. hodos, "a natural path, road, way" (Vines, p. 668).

b. Used to refer to Christians because they represented "the way" to salvation (Acts 19:23).

c. Jesus is the exclusive source of salvation. He's not a way but the Way.

1) This is the most offensive claim of Jesus, it seems.

2) It is the first claim that is jettisoned when Christian groups begin to get "tolerant."

3) Yet there are at least nine separate lines of reasoning that the Scripture gives demonstrating why Jesus is the only true "way."

1. Jesus is the source of salvation for the world (Acts 4:11-12).

2. Jesus is the Father's choice (Jn 6:28-29).

3. Rejection of Jesus is rejection of the Father (Jn 5:23b).

4. Rejection of Jesus results in God's wrath; belief in Jesus rescues from wrath (Jn 3:36).

5. Jesus is the one who provides forgiveness from sin (J 8:24).

6. Jesus will be man's final judge (Jn 5:26-27).

7. Many imposters will claim to provide salvation (Matt 24:4-5).

8. But there are no other alternatives for salvation (Gal 2:21).

9. Therefore, all nations are to be given this Gospel (Lk 24:47).

2. The Truth

a. Lit. aletheia, "The reality lying at the basis of an appearance; the manifested, veritable essence of a matter...Not merely ethical 'truth,' but 'truth' in all its fullness and scope" (Vines, p. 645).

b. Jesus is the substantial foundation of all reality.

3. The Life

a. Lit. zoe, "Used in the NT of life as a principle, life in the absolute sense, the life as God has it, that which the Father has in Himself" (Vines, p. 367).

1) Life which He gave to the Incarnate Son to have in Himself (Jn 5:26).

2) Life from which man has become alienated as a result of the fall, "...excluded from the life of God" (Eph 4:18).[2]

b. This "life" is a reference to Jesus deity. Jesus is the life; He doesn't merely have the life. He is the source of it.

4. Conclusion: Jesus is God in the flesh, representing to man all that God is and His plan for mankind (Col 1:15-22).




[1]The phrase "Son of Man" is actually a messianic title from Daniel 7:13.

[2]Zoe is also used of that life which is the common possession of all animals and men by nature (e.g. Acts 17:25), but this clearly isn't the sense of Jesus' claim here, from the evidence of these verses.

http://www.str.org/articles/jesus-unique-claims-about-himself#.VpKr6s9IjZ4himself#.VpKr6s9IjZ4

The Claims of Jesus
Christ claimed to live a sinless life
Jesus could look at a crowd of people angry at his claims to share God's nature and ask, "Which of you can point to anything wrong in my life?" Even more amazing is that none of them could give a reply! No human being has ever lived a sinless life, except for Jesus Christ.

John 8:28-29 "So Jesus said, 'When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know who I am and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.'"

John 8:46-47 "Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

Jesus Christ claimed to be the ONLY way to God
Not one of several ways, but the one and only way. Not to teach the way, but to be the way to God. Nobody has ever made claims like that before and backed them, but Jesus did through his love, balanced life, and miracles.

John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me."

Matthew 11:27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

Note: No other world religious leader, such as Buddha, Confucius, or Mohammed ever made this claim.

Christ claimed to have shared the glory of God in Heaven
Jesus claimed to have pre-existed the people he spoke with. The apostle John--who shared bread with Jesus--wrote that Jesus was with God in the very beginning, and that "all things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being." (John 1:1-5)

John 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

This is a claim distorted by groups like the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses.

Jesus Christ claimed to be able to forgive sins
One of the reasons that the Jewish leaders were so angry with Jesus was his continual practice of forgiving people's sins. The religious leaders understood clearly that since sins were rebellion against God Himself, only God could forgive sins.

Luke 5:20-21 "When Jesus saw their faith, he said, 'Friend, your sins are forgiven.' The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, 'Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?'"(emphasis: web author)

Luke 7:48-49 "Then Jesus said to her, 'Your sins are forgiven.' The other guests began to say among themselves, 'Who is this who even forgives sins?'"

Christ claimed to be a Heavenly king
Luke 22:69 "But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."

Luke 23:1-3 "Then the whole assembly rose and led him off to Pilate. And they began to accuse him, saying, 'We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be Christ, a king.' So Pilate asked Jesus, 'Are you the king of the Jews?' 'Yes, it is as you say,' Jesus replied."

John 18:36-37 "Jesus said, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.' 'You are a king, then!' said Pilate. Jesus answered, 'You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.'"

Christ claimed to be able to give everlasting life
Jesus didn't just tell people how they could find everlasting life, or deepen their own life experience. He actually claimed to give life himself.

John 6:40 "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:47 "I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life."

John 10:28-30 "I give [my followers] eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

John 11:25 "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die...'"

Jesus claimed that he would die and come back to life
John 10:17 "Just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

John 12:32-33 "'But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.' He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die."

John 16:16 "In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."

Luke 18:31-33 "Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, 'We are going up into Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.'"

Christ claimed that he would return again to judge the world
Matthew 24:27-30 "So as the lightening comes from the east and flashes to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man... At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory."

Matthew 25:31-32 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep and the goats."

Mark 14:61-62 "Again the high priest asked him, 'Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?' 'I am,' said Jesus. 'And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.'"

http://www.whoisjesus-really.com/english/claims.htm

 

[quatona]

<snip>

This is just to remind you what the topic of this thread is. You probably are confusing it with one of your apologetics threads.

 

[anonymous person]

This is just to remind you what the topic of this thread is. You probably are confusing it with one of your apologetics threads.

Oh I am aware that this is way beyond being off topic. But I did not want to be accused of being "evasive" or "running" from the questions and or points Archaeopteryx put to me.

Could you kindly remind him that his questions and points are off topic?

 

[quatona]

Oh I am aware that this is way beyond being off topic. But I did not want to be accused of being "evasive" or "running" from the questions and or points Archaeopteryx put to me.

Yeah, but this is not about you.
You may want to start practicing this virtue in your own threads.

Could you kindly remind him that his questions and points are off topic?

Sure.

 

[quatona]

Arch, if you want to engage ap on his apologetics, could you please do it in those threads he has created for this task? Thank you.

 

[anonymous person]

Sure.

Thanks!

 

[ToddNotTodd]

This is just to remind you what the topic of this thread is. You probably are confusing it with one of your apologetics threads.

That was more like preaching than apologetics...

 

[anonymous person]

Perfect being theology is a project that not all Christians agree with. I tend to use the term "Greatest Conceivable Being" because it is easier than saying, "The timelessly existing sans creation and in time subsequent to creation personal creator and sustainer of the universe who is omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipresent, etc. etc."

It is also more succinct than me copying and pasting this every time I use the word "God":

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made:

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man;

And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;

And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;

And ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father;

And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the Prophets;

And we believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins.

We look for the Resurrection of the dead,

And the Life of the age to come. Amen.

So I am not going to "go to the mat" to defend the project, nor do I routinely use the Ontological argument, although I do think it is a good piece of natural theology.

 

[quatona]

>snip>

This is just to remind of the topic of this thread.

 

[anonymous person]

This is just to remind of the topic of this thread.

Ok here is an idea:

Have you done any research at all into Perfect Being theology?

If you had, you would have discovered that it is a project theologians engage in and one in which they use scripture as their foundation.

As Dr. Craig remarks:

"For thinkers in the Judaeo-Christian tradition, God's self-revelation in Scripture is obviously paramount in understanding what God is like. In addition, the Anselmian conception of God as the greatest conceivable being or most perfect being has guided philosophical speculation on the raw data of Scripture, so that God's biblical attributes are to be conceived in ways that would serve to exalt God's greatness. Since the concept of God is underdetermined by the biblical data and since what constitutes a ‘great-making’ property is to some degree debatable, philosophers working within the Judaeo-Christian tradition enjoy considerable latitude in formulating a philosophically coherent and biblically faithful doctrine of God."


IOW, this is an "in-house" issue of interest to theologians.



Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/perfect-being-theology#ixzz3wsthqSHm

 

[quatona]

Ok here is an idea:

Have you done any research at all into Perfect Being theology?

No. "Perfect Being theology" isn´t the topic of this thread.

If you had, you would have discovered that it is a project theologians engage in and one in which they use scripture as their foundation.

As Dr. Craig remarks:

"For thinkers in the Judaeo-Christian tradition, God's self-revelation in Scripture is obviously paramount in understanding what God is like. In addition, the Anselmian conception of God as the greatest conceivable being or most perfect being has guided philosophical speculation on the raw data of Scripture, so that God's biblical attributes are to be conceived in ways that would serve to exalt God's greatness. Since the concept of God is underdetermined by the biblical data and since what constitutes a ‘great-making’ property is to some degree debatable, philosophers working within the Judaeo-Christian tradition enjoy considerable latitude in formulating a philosophically coherent and biblically faithful doctrine of God."


IOW, this is an "in-house" issue of interest to theologians.

Exactly, and as such, it isn´t relevant for the topic at hand.

 

[anonymous person]

No. "Perfect Being theology" isn´t the topic of this thread.

Anselmian perfect being theology is the mother of the phrase "Greatest Conceivable Being". It is a phrase that owes its existence to Anselm and it is found in his work "Proslogion".

So if the topic of your thread has anything to do with the phrase "Greatest Conceivable Being", then perfect being theology will necessarily be a part of this discussion.

Exactly, and as such, it isn´t relevant for the topic at hand.

So this thread is not about the phrase "greatest conceivable being"?

I thought it was.

 

[Locutus]

At the end of the day it is recorded that Jesus made some claims that are unique to Him and Him alone. Thus, they are worthy of at minimum, our thoughtful consideration.

All gods and prophets are necessarily going to make claims unique to them. Just as many have made claims that are similar if not identical. Why then, are one prophet's unique claims more worthy of thoughtful consideration than another prophet's unique claims? I really would like an answer to this

 

[quatona]

Anselmian perfect being theology is the mother of the phrase "Greatest Conceivable Being". It is a phrase that owes its existence to Anselm and it is found in his work "Proslogion".

I don´t care what the mother is. I am looking at "Greatest Conceivable Being" as it reads there. If you wanted us to address Anselm´s argument in your thread (with all the additional definitional and theological bells and whistles), you should have said so. However, you pretended to ask for arguments against the existence of "God", and - upon being asked for a definition, i.e. what exactly you wanted an argument against - you found "Greatest Conceivable Being" sufficient. You didn´t notify us that we first had to work our way through Anselm and Willy Craig. Au contraire, you pretended that arguments against the existence of God could and should be brought up without looking at arguments for the existence of "God". That was essential part of your attempt at burden shifting, after all.
Just to refresh your memory:

Philosophers of religion as a part of their discipline, sometimes engage in the formulation and defense of arguments for the existence of God.

We are aware of this.

However, it is oftentimes forgotten that they also interact with arguments against theism.

In this thread, we will discuss those which atheists here think are most persuasive.

Any takers?

 

[anonymous person]

Why then, are one prophet's unique claims more worthy of thoughtful consideration than another prophet's unique claims? I really would like an answer to this

This is better asked in my thread entitled "A swift refutation to a specific argument for religious pluralism".

quatona rightly has asked we not derail this thread.

You are asking me to defend a position I don't hold to. All I said was that Jesus' claims are worthy of at minimum, our thoughtful consideration. I never said that Jesus' claims are more worthy of thoughtful consideration than say those of Muhammad or Joseph Smith.

 

[anonymous person]

I don´t care what the mother is. I am looking at "Greatest Conceivable Being" as it reads there. If you wanted us to address Anselm´s argument in your thread (with all the additional definitional and theological bells and whistles), you should have said so. However, you pretended to ask for arguments against the existence of "God", and - upon being asked for a definition, i.e. what exactly you wanted an argument against - you found "Greatest Conceivable Being" sufficient. You didn´t notify us that we first had to work our way through Anselm and Willy Craig. Au contraire, you pretended that arguments against the existence of God could and should be brought up without looking at arguments for the existence of "God". That was essential part of your attempt at burden shifting, after all.
Just to refresh your memory:

Well, it seems to me that if you wanted to know about the phrase in question and how I use it, you would listen to what I say is my reason for using it and how I came to know about it.

Calm down and take a deep breath sir. The world is not going to come to an end, just yet.

If you want to understand the phrase as Christian philosophers use it, you will need to do a little research. That is all I am saying. You obviously have an aversion to accepting what I say about it so just research it on your own.

 

[anonymous person]

Read this Q&A.

The person writing to Dr. Craig seems like he has some of the same misgivings you have.


http://www.reasonablefaith.org/perfect-being-theology

 

[Chesterton]

If, however, you feel that any of the questions in the OP are not proper, you are welcome to explain how and why they aren´t proper.

I've done that since page 3, but alas, you don't accept it. Uh-oh! A couple of people on the internet disagree:

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Arch, if you want to engage ap on his apologetics, could you please do it in those threads he has created for this task? Thank you.

Will do. I'll place my response to his post in one of the apologetic threads he has abandoned (there's quite a selection to choose from).