The Great Tribulation

random person said:

The Babylonian harlot and these characterizations could be describing the Zionist entity too especially these following ones:

The Woman considers herself a Queen (Revelation 18:7).

The Woman still considers herself Married (Revelation 18:7)

The Woman's Bridegroom has Divorced Her (Revelation 18:23). The Lord divorced Israel and married the Church.

The Woman's Engagement/Marriage has been annulled/abrogated (Rev 18:23). Old Covenant made obsolete by a New Covenant

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You are simply ignoring the fact that one woman is described as "that great city where also our Lord was crucified." This can be nothing but Jerusalem. But the other woman is described as "that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth." This is also an absolute identifier, but it doed not identify Jerusalem. It positively identifies Rome, the city that was ruling the entire known earth at the time the Revelation was written.

Interplanner said:

As I reread this today, I have to agree with BW if he says there's no necessary connection between the expression "the great city" and Jerusalem per se. But it does keep lurking in the background. And "Babylon" is referred to several verses before being explained.

But also, while there is some focus on "Babylon" in 17, the beast she is riding on is what BW was describing. They are partners for a season. But they have their own identity, and she is despised eventually. V7 goes right on about the beast without us knowing there was a beast in the picturer of ch 17. The despising is why some of us think Israel collaborated in control of its country for a while, but then the rebellion gained too much strength, and Rome blamed Jewish leaders for failing to control things (cp Caiaphas' fear of the rebels), and to control Christians or Rome blamed Christians for revolt.

All through Acts you do find Jewish people in key administrative positions throughout the Roman empire. They are often more hostile to the Christians than are the officials of the host country. A person could build a case for influence over the kings of the earth from that.

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If one is thinking "history," this will not fit. There has NEVER been a time in History that the entire world is deceived by a "beast" and "false prophet" in the temple in Jerusalem. You really need to read 2 Thes. 2:4 and Rev. 13 with future in mind. Neither was the world ready then for a one world government. Most then did not even know of a "one world!" The world to them was the ROMAN EMPIRE. They did not know of the Beast with 7 heads to represent 7 significant empires with kings (until John wrote it). They knew of the 5 that were history at that time. They did not know of the "one to come" that would remain only a short time: Hitler and Germany.

One MUST think future, because that is what the intent of the Author was.

LAMAD

Biblewriter said:

You are simply ignoring the fact that one woman is described as "that great city where also our Lord was crucified." This can be nothing but Jerusalem. But the other woman is described as "that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth." This is also an absolute identifier, but it doed not identify Jerusalem. It positively identifies Rome, the city that was ruling the entire known earth at the time the Revelation was written.

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YOU either need to teach truth, or change your name! It certainly does NOT identify Rome! You are stuck with the 7 hills in your head, when that was not even remotely what the Author was meaning. He was NOT SPEAKING of geography.

Take off your preconceived glasses, and read it again this way...

"And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

This is not speaking of geography! It is speaking of 7 empires or nations, each with a KING. Please pay attention! Five of these were history when John wrote. Roman was the existing one, and the 7th was yet to come. It is STILL yet to come.

So this "Beast" is a man, but this man is the 8th king but of the seven. What does this mean? Daniel tells us this man with his nation will take down three kings out of ten (he is the 11th). Ten minus three leaves us 7. So this king will become the 8th King. This ten nations is NOT THE SAME Ten as the ten that throw in with the Beast for one hour at the end.

It should be without question that these ten kings, where three are taken out, are on the EASTERN leg of the image of Daniel chapter 2. They will all be Middle EAstern nations, or Muslim nations. It is quite likely the 10 kings that thrown in with the Beast for one hour will be from the western leg of the image, or from Europe - but this is only a guess.

One of these heads had a deadly wound. What Middle East nation lost a war and the king was killed? None other than IRAQ. I believe THAT is the deadly wound. But Iraq, old Babylon, will certainly figure in the end as one of the 7, so I am convinced we will soon see Iraq taken over by Militant Muslims.

LAMAD

iamlamad said:

YOU either need to teach truth, or change your name!

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This is the first time you have directed such a message to me, but I have for some time now been grieved by the arrogant spirit of many of your posts. Even when people are mistaken, it is inappropriate to correct people in such a way as this. The scriptural pattern for a teacher is "a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. " (2 Timothy 2:24-26)

And the qualification for an elder, or bishop, is "that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict." (Titus 1:9)

If you can demonstrate an error from the scripture, do so. But do it in humility, not in arrogance. And remember that "the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy." (James 3:17)

It certainly does NOT identify Rome! You are stuck with the 7 hills in your head, when that was not even remotely what the Author was meaning. He was NOT SPEAKING of geography.

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You insist that the Holy Spirit "was not speaking of geography." But in actual fact, this is exactly what He did. He identified this woman two ways. the first way, which you dismissed so cavalierly, was by saying she sat on seven mountains. At that time, there was exactly one city in the entire world that was known as "the city of seven hills." And that one city was Rome. The physical proof of this is still available for people to see in the coin below. This was minted by the Roman government only about 20 years before the Revelation was given, and it depicts Rome as a woman sitting on seven hills. This coin is called the Roma sestertius of Vespacian.



But that is only one of the two positive identifiers in this chapter. (Revelation 17) The other one, in the last verse, is the one I referred to, which is, "the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth." (Revelation 17:18)

Take off your preconceived glasses, and read it again this way...

"And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

This is not speaking of geography! It is speaking of 7 empires or nations, each with a KING. Please pay attention! Five of these were history when John wrote. Roman was the existing one, and the 7th was yet to come. It is STILL yet to come.

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At the time this was said, five previous governments of Rome had already fallen, and she now had a sixth. For Rome was first ruled by kings, then by consuls; followed by decemvirs and then by consular tribunes. (See “The History of Rome,” by Livy, book 5, chapter 2. And “the Annals of Imperial Rome,” by Tacitus, book 1, chapter 1.) During these governments, the ·Roman Senate had occasionally appointed dictators in extreme emergencies. These had always been given power for only six months or until the emergency was over. But Rome’s fifth form of government was different. One after another, military commanders began to violently seize dictatorial power by force of arms, as recorded by the ancient historian Appian in a book called “The Civil Wars.” This continued for a period of about a hundred years, finally ending when the Senate granted absolute power to Augustus Caesar, thus establishing Rome’s sixth government, the line of emperors called Caesars. This government was in power when the Revelation was given and lasted until the fall of the ·Roman empire. So the one which “has not yet come” has to be future.

So this "Beast" is a man, but this man is the 8th king but of the seven. What does this mean? Daniel tells us this man with his nation will take down three kings out of ten (he is the 11th). Ten minus three leaves us 7. So this king will become the 8th King. This ten nations is NOT THE SAME Ten as the ten that throw in with the Beast for one hour at the end.

It should be without question that these ten kings, where three are taken out, are on the EASTERN leg of the image of Daniel chapter 2. They will all be Middle EAstern nations, or Muslim nations. It is quite likely the 10 kings that thrown in with the Beast for one hour will be from the western leg of the image, or from Europe - but this is only a guess.

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It is not only your last statement that is "just a guess," but everything in these two paragraphs. Such a system of interpretation requires hard scriptural backup to make it even "seem" valid. And this you have not done, and you cannot do. For the scriptures do not teach this idea.

The basic error in the system of interpretation you have presented here is that you have neglected that the seven heads are all on the beast. These are not seven independent empires, but seven different governments of the same empire. And that is the Roman Empire.

One of these heads had a deadly wound. What Middle East nation lost a war and the king was killed? None other than IRAQ. I believe THAT is the deadly wound. But Iraq, old Babylon, will certainly figure in the end as one of the 7, so I am convinced we will soon see Iraq taken over by Militant Muslims.

LAMAD

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The head that was wounded unto death was the empire, the last of the ancient forms of government over Rome. The Roman Empire received a stroke that appeared to have killed it. But this scripture says that the deadly wound will be healed. When Rome re-asserts herself, it will be as a true revival of the ancient Roman Empire.

Biblewriter said:

This is the first time you have directed such a message to me, but I have for some time now been grieved by the arrogant spirit of many of your posts. Even when people are mistaken, it is inappropriate to correct people in such a way as this. The scriptural pattern for a teacher is "a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. " (2 Timothy 2:24-26)

And the qualification for an elder, or bishop, is "that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict." (Titus 1:9)

If you can demonstrate an error from the scripture, do so. But do it in humility, not in arrogance. And remember that "the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy." (James 3:17)

You insist that the Holy Spirit "was not speaking of geography." But in actual fact, this is exactly what He did. He identified this woman two ways. the first way, which you dismissed so cavalierly, was by saying she sat on seven mountains. At that time, there was exactly one city in the entire world that was known as "the city of seven hills." And that one city was Rome. The physical proof of this is still available for people to see in the coin below. This was minted by the Roman government only about 20 years before the Revelation was given, and it depicts Rome as a woman sitting on seven hills. This coin is called the Roma sestertius of Vespacian.

But that is only one of the two positive identifiers in this chapter. (Revelation 17) The other one, in the last verse, is the one I referred to, which is, "the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth." (Revelation 17:18)



At the time this was said, five previous governments of Rome had already fallen, and she now had a sixth. For Rome was first ruled by kings, then by consuls; followed by decemvirs and then by consular tribunes. (See “The History of Rome,” by Livy, book 5, chapter 2. And “the Annals of Imperial Rome,” by Tacitus, book 1, chapter 1.) During these governments, the ·Roman Senate had occasionally appointed dictators in extreme emergencies. These had always been given power for only six months or until the emergency was over. But Rome’s fifth form of government was different. One after another, military commanders began to violently seize dictatorial power by force of arms, as recorded by the ancient historian Appian in a book called “The Civil Wars.” This continued for a period of about a hundred years, finally ending when the Senate granted absolute power to Augustus Caesar, thus establishing Rome’s sixth government, the line of emperors called Caesars. This government was in power when the Revelation was given and lasted until the fall of the ·Roman empire. So the one which “has not yet come” has to be future.

It is not only your last statement that is "just a guess," but everything in these two paragraphs. Such a system of interpretation requires hard scriptural backup to make it even "seem" valid. And this you have not done, and you cannot do. For the scriptures do not teach this idea.

The basic error in the system of interpretation you have presented here is that you have neglected that the seven heads are all on the beast. These are not seven independent empires, but seven different governments of the same empire. And that is the Roman Empire.

The head that was wounded unto death was the empire, the last of the ancient forms of government over Rome. The Roman Empire received a stroke that appeared to have killed it. But this scripture says that the deadly wound will be healed. When Rome re-asserts herself, it will be as a true revival of the ancient Roman Empire.

Click to expand...

When people are on a public forum attempting to teach, but teaching error, the error is to be corrected. God gave me a verse for my life, very early in my life:

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

For beginners on a public forum, I exhort, but for those who have been on forums day after day, week after week, teaching false doctrine, I reprove. In particular I reprove a false, posttrib doctrine, because it is very dangerous. Do you understand, some are here for ONE Purpose: to spread their false doctrine. I should not have to tell you who is behind that.

I still say, John did not even remotely have Rome in mind. To understand this, you must go back to the image in Daniel chapter 2. Do you remember this? Notice these verses:

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Notice the wording: "in the days of these kings...." What is this telling us? It seems that all these kings are contemporary! And they are all living at the time Jesus comes to set up His kingdom. This seems to be the final meaning. The first and obvious meaning is that the head of gold was to represent Nebuchadnezzar, the silver chest (two arms) were to represent Medo-Persia that took down Babylon; then the bronze of the Greecian Kingdom, belly with two thighs. This image had two legs, to represent the Eastern leg and Western Leg. Alexander's kingdom was so large it included southern Europe and the Middle East - two thighs. After the Grecian kingdom was defeated, ROME took over, but again the TWO legs of Iron. Rome controlled most of Europe and the Middle East. So this image was to represent these empires, one after another. But there is a second meaning: these same land areas will have kings at the time of the end. Now these verses from chapter 7:

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Notice the TIME: it is when the Beast of Rev. 13 rises up to begin his reign of power: he takes out three nations: I believe Middle East nations. His goal is Jerusalem.

Now notice these next two verses:

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The beast - the very same beast as Daniel 13 - is taken, as shown in Rev. 19. But notice, "the rest of the beasts" lost their dominion but were not destroyed at that time. My point is, all four of these beasts of chapter 7 are alive at the SAME POINT in time, the time of the END.

Back to the image of chapter 2: we see that from Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar, MedoPersia took over, and from there, Greece took over, and from there, Rome took over. EAch of these nations RULED Israel and influenced her greatly. Babylon took many captive; the Persian king in the time of Esther was going to destroy the Jews. Antiochus Epiphanes of the Grecian empire did TERRIBLE things to Israel, and became a TYPE of the Rev. 13 beast. But then ROME took over, and again had GREAT influence over Israel, finally destroying her temple and scattering her people to the four winds. So these empires came one after another. But at the time of the end, there will be PEOPLE in all these same land areas, which will be nations with Kings. THIS is the kingdom of the final Beast. John was not talking about Rome AT ALL. He was talking about all the previous nations that controlled Israel: Assyria, Babylon, Meads, Persians, Greece, and finally Rome. The Kingdom of the Beast will include the same land areas as is common with all these kingdoms, mostly the MIDDLE EAST. This would include IRAN, IRAQ, SYRIA, to name just three.

The Beast is a leopard beast with wings. Why? Because he will have the same speed of conquering as Alexander did. He will have the feet of a bear, because he will also resemble the Medopersian Empire. My guess is, he will be able to amass VAST NUMBERS of troops, as did the Medopersians. He will have the mouth of a lion to represent Nebuchadnezzar. He ruled as a SOLE Monarch, meaning HE MADE ALL decisions. The Rev. 13 beast will be the same kind of king.

You should understand, EVERYTHING in Revelation is centered in the Middle East with Israel as the Center. JESUS will return to Jerusalem, so Satan WANTS THAT CITY!

Finally, the Beast of Revelation will come representing Christ. For that He will enter the temple where Christ will one day come, and proclaim that he is God. He will spend the last 3 1/2 years IN JERUSALEM, not Rome. He will arrive in Jerusalem as shown in Rev. 11:1-2. That will be 3 1/2 days before the abomination. He will not come alone, but with his Muslim Armies. This is why John said the city would be trampled for 3 1/2 years.

HOW does Rome fit in? She was never defeated; rather she just faded away. But those land areas held by Rome still have people in them. And Rome still can be pictured as the legs and feet of the image. Did you notice that the clay and iron would not mix or blend? Have you notice that Islam will not "blend" ANYWHERE? They have no desire to blend or mix: they want to RULE. Muslims will never mix with any population where they go.

I will admit, I have not received revelation knowledge on this - so am using only human wisdom. I cannot be dogmatic on some points. But on the 7 mountains I can be sure: they are to represent seven SIGNIFICANT nations; the very same we see in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7. How can we hope to understand Revelation if we ignore Daniel? The Beast's kingdom MUST be understood by the image of Daniel 2 and Daniel's vision of chapter 7.

When it comes to the 70th week, I DO have revelation knowledge. I am sure of what I write. I know the truth, because God spoke it to me. Have you notice HOW SURE Paul was about his gospel he received by revealed knowledge? He wrote that we will be judged by his gospel. He was so sure he preached it for years before checking it out at Jerusalem. it is that way with revelation knowledge: when God speaks, you KNOW the truth. I suspect some in Paul's day called him arrogant. But he was not: he KNEW the TRUTH, and would not compromise it.

If you are only a beginner in end times, I repent. I hope you will be open to learn. I did get revelation knowledge on the Great Wh**e Babylon being Jerusalem. There is absolutely no doubt of this. The Beast will rule and deceive the entire world with false doctrine, and false miracles to back him up. It will be deception on a level this world has never seen. The very city where God wanted to spreak the good news to all the world, becomes the very city where FALSE doctrine is spread.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

John is not speaking her of the woman, but of the KINGDOM of the Beast. Each head is not a hill in Rome, but a NATION or EMPIRE. The Beast is not going to be ruling from Rome, but from JERUSALEM.

The seven heads are seven mountains...And there are seven kings:

There are NOT seven kings, one for each hill in Rome! That is not the meaning. Each mountain is to represent an EMPIRE with a king.

You have neglected that the seven heads are all on the beast. These are not seven independent empires, but seven different governments of the same empire. And that is the Roman Empire.

These seven ARE on the same Beast...to represent the 7 nations the Beast of Rev. 13 will begin his reign with. But they are RELATED to the ancient empires in that they are in the same land areas. And here they are MIDDLE EAST nations.

The head that was wounded unto death was the empire

I disagree. Each head represents a NATION with a King.

LAMAD

iamlamad said:

When people are on a public forum attempting to teach, but teaching error, the error is to be corrected. God gave me a verse for my life, very early in my life:

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

For beginners on a public forum, I exhort, but for those who have been on forums day after day, week after week, teaching false doctrine, I reprove. In particular I reprove a false, posttrib doctrine, because it is very dangerous. Do you understand, some are here for ONE Purpose: to spread their false doctrine. I should not have to tell you who is behind that.

Click to expand...

I have been here A LOT longer than you have. I am quite aware that many here are here for the sole purpose of spreading false doctrine. But you would do well to do a little less rebuking and a little more listening. "So then, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath." (James 1:19) If you were actually willing to listen a little, you might learn something. You could learn a lot by reading the OP's in the two following threads:

The neglected character in end time prophecy http://www.christianforums.com/t6571768-4/

The End Time King of Judah http://www.christianforums.com/t7585242-5/

Who will be in the land during Daniel’s seventieth week? http://www.christianforums.com/t6429517-19/

What Happens When Messiah Comes http://www.christianforums.com/t7324109-5/

I still say, John did not even remotely have Rome in mind. To understand this, you must go back to the image in Daniel chapter 2. Do you remember this? Notice these verses:

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Notice the wording: "in the days of these kings...." What is this telling us? It seems that all these kings are contemporary! And they are all living at the time Jesus comes to set up His kingdom. This seems to be the final meaning. The first and obvious meaning is that the head of gold was to represent Nebuchadnezzar, the silver chest (two arms) were to represent Medo-Persia that took down Babylon; then the bronze of the Greecian Kingdom, belly with two thighs. This image had two legs, to represent the Eastern leg and Western Leg. Alexander's kingdom was so large it included southern Europe and the Middle East - two thighs. After the Grecian kingdom was defeated, ROME took over, but again the TWO legs of Iron. Rome controlled most of Europe and the Middle East. So this image was to represent these empires, one after another. But there is a second meaning: these same land areas will have kings at the time of the end.

Click to expand...

Yes, for we read, "As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time." (Daniel 7:12)

Now these verses from chapter 7:

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Notice the TIME: it is when the Beast of Rev. 13 rises up to begin his reign of power: he takes out three nations: I believe Middle East nations. His goal is Jerusalem.

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"I believe" has no place in scriptural teaching. If you cannot demonstrate a concept from scripture, it has no place in scriptural traching.

Now notice these next two verses:

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The beast - the very same beast as Daniel 13 - is taken, as shown in Rev. 19. But notice, "the rest of the beasts" lost their dominion but were not destroyed at that time. My point is, all four of these beasts of chapter 7 are alive at the SAME POINT in time, the time of the END.

Back to the image of chapter 2: we see that from Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar, MedoPersia took over, and from there, Greece took over, and from there, Rome took over. EAch of these nations RULED Israel and influenced her greatly. Babylon took many captive; the Persian king in the time of Esther was going to destroy the Jews. Antiochus Epiphanes of the Grecian empire did TERRIBLE things to Israel, and became a TYPE of the Rev. 13 beast. But then ROME took over, and again had GREAT influence over Israel, finally destroying her temple and scattering her people to the four winds. So these empires came one after another. But at the time of the end, there will be PEOPLE in all these same land areas, which will be nations with Kings. THIS is the kingdom of the final Beast. John was not talking about Rome AT ALL. He was talking about all the previous nations that controlled Israel: Assyria, Babylon, Meads, Persians, Greece, and finally Rome. The Kingdom of the Beast will include the same land areas as is common with all these kingdoms, mostly the MIDDLE EAST. This would include IRAN, IRAQ, SYRIA, to name just three.

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All the boldfaced portion of this is 100% pure, unadulterated, speculation. You are forgetting that the ten horns are on the beast, in both Daniel 7 and Revelation 12, 13, and 17.

The Beast is a leopard beast with wings. Why? Because he will have the same speed of conquering as Alexander did. He will have the feet of a bear, because he will also resemble the Medopersian Empire. My guess is, he will be able to amass VAST NUMBERS of troops, as did the Medopersians. He will have the mouth of a lion to represent Nebuchadnezzar. He ruled as a SOLE Monarch, meaning HE MADE ALL decisions. The Rev. 13 beast will be the same kind of king.

You should understand, EVERYTHING in Revelation is centered in the Middle East with Israel as the Center. JESUS will return to Jerusalem, so Satan WANTS THAT CITY!

Finally, the Beast of Revelation will come representing Christ. For that He will enter the temple where Christ will one day come, and proclaim that he is God. He will spend the last 3 1/2 years IN JERUSALEM, not Rome. He will arrive in Jerusalem as shown in Rev. 11:1-2. That will be 3 1/2 days before the abomination. He will not come alone, but with his Muslim Armies. This is why John said the city would be trampled for 3 1/2 years.

HOW does Rome fit in? She was never defeated; rather she just faded away. But those land areas held by Rome still have people in them. And Rome still can be pictured as the legs and feet of the image. Did you notice that the clay and iron would not mix or blend? Have you notice that Islam will not "blend" ANYWHERE? They have no desire to blend or mix: they want to RULE. Muslims will never mix with any population where they go.

I will admit, I have not received revelation knowledge on this - so am using only human wisdom.

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Thank you for admitting this. You are using only human wisdom, and that wisdom is not spiritual. It is foolishness.

I cannot be dogmatic on some points. But on the 7 mountains I can be sure: they are to represent seven SIGNIFICANT nations; the very same we see in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7. How can we hope to understand Revelation if we ignore Daniel? The Beast's kingdom MUST be understood by the image of Daniel 2 and Daniel's vision of chapter 7.

Click to expand...

If you cannot clearly demonstrate this from the scriptures, you do not know it.

When it comes to the 70th week, I DO have revelation knowledge. I am sure of what I write. I know the truth, because God spoke it to me. Have you notice HOW SURE Paul was about his gospel he received by revealed knowledge? He wrote that we will be judged by his gospel. He was so sure he preached it for years before checking it out at Jerusalem. it is that way with revelation knowledge: when God speaks, you KNOW the truth. I suspect some in Paul's day called him arrogant. But he was not: he KNEW the TRUTH, and would not compromise it.

If you are only a beginner in end times, I repent. I hope you will be open to learn. I did get revelation knowledge on the Great Wh**e Babylon being Jerusalem. There is absolutely no doubt of this. The Beast will rule and deceive the entire world with false doctrine, and false miracles to back him up. It will be deception on a level this world has never seen. The very city where God wanted to spreak the good news to all the world, becomes the very city where FALSE doctrine is spread.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

John is not speaking her of the woman, but of the KINGDOM of the Beast. Each head is not a hill in Rome, but a NATION or EMPIRE. The Beast is not going to be ruling from Rome, but from JERUSALEM.

The seven heads are seven mountains...And there are seven kings:

There are NOT seven kings, one for each hill in Rome! That is not the meaning. Each mountain is to represent an EMPIRE with a king.

You have neglected that the seven heads are all on the beast. These are not seven independent empires, but seven different governments of the same empire. And that is the Roman Empire.

These seven ARE on the same Beast...to represent the 7 nations the Beast of Rev. 13 will begin his reign with. But they are RELATED to the ancient empires in that they are in the same land areas. And here they are MIDDLE EAST nations.

The head that was wounded unto death was the empire

I disagree. Each head represents a NATION with a King.

LAMAD

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There have been many who have come and gone on this forum, who have claimed that they have knowledge of scripture that was revealed to them directly by God. And every one of them says something different. So at the very most, all but one of them is self deceived.

In this case, your "revelation knowledge" is directly contrary to the explicit statements of scripture that I have already given you, so it cannot even possibly have come from God. It came either from your own mind, of from a deceiving spirit.

Biblewriter said:

I have been here A LOT longer than you have. I am quite aware that many here are here for the sole purpose of spreading false doctrine. But you would do well to do a little less rebuking and a little more listening. "So then, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath." (James 1:19) If you were actually willing to listen a little, you might learn something. You could learn a lot by reading the OP's in the two following threads:

The neglected character in end time prophecy http://www.christianforums.com/t6571768-4/

The End Time King of Judah http://www.christianforums.com/t7585242-5/

Who will be in the land during Daniel’s seventieth week? http://www.christianforums.com/t6429517-19/

What Happens When Messiah Comes http://www.christianforums.com/t7324109-5/



Yes, for we read, "As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time." (Daniel 7:12)
"I believe" has no place in scriptural teaching. If you cannot demonstrate a concept from scripture, it has no place in scriptural traching.

All the boldfaced portion of this is 100% pure, unadulterated, speculation. You are forgetting that the ten horns are on the beast, in both Daniel 7 and Revelation 12, 13, and 17.

Thank you for admitting this. You are using only human wisdom, and that wisdom is not spiritual. It is foolishness.

If you cannot clearly demonstrate this from the scriptures, you do not know it.

There have been many who have come and gone on this forum, who have claimed that they have knowledge of scripture that was revealed to them directly by God. And every one of them says something different. So at the very most, all but one of them is self deceived.

In this case, your "revelation knowledge" is directly contrary to the explicit statements of scripture that I have already given you, so it cannot even possibly have come from God. It came either from your own mind, of from a deceiving spirit.

Click to expand...

If you wish to have your end times doctrine stuck in Rome, God will allow that. He will allow you to believe ANYTHING you choose to believe.

YOU MISSED what I said: "When it comes to the 70th week, I DO have revelation knowledge. I am sure of what I write. I know the truth, because God spoke it to me." He took me step by step through chapter's 4 & 5, and sent me specifically to find the "entire 70th week clearly marked." Those were HIS words, not mine. First He sent me to find the "exact midpoint clearly marked." He told me HOW to find it. The entire 70th week is "marked" by 7's: the 7th seal opens the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends the week. On these things I am VERY SURE.

I told you I did not receive any revelation knowledge on this part of Revelation, so can only use HUMAN wisdom. Now let's compare: Has God SPOKEN to you about this part of scripture? DId you hear His voice and His words? If He has not, then we are on a level playing field. We try our best, with HUMAN understanding, to find the intent of the Author.

As for the Seleucids and Ptolemies, I certainly agree with you. And on the several generations in chapter 11 of Daniel. Some of that chapter is certainly about Antiochus Epiphanes. But I think at verse 36 it changes to our future.

We also agree, at the time of Dan. 12:1, he is at the days of great tribulation spoken of by Jesus.

This great tribulation will come upon “those who are in Judea.” (Matthew 24:16)

I disagree.Jesus was only telling those to flee because they saw the abomination which WILL BE in Jerusalem. But the days of Great tribulation will be FAR SPREAD. It is written that the Beast will be given authority around the world, and it is written that "all the world" wonders after the Beast. I believe there will be FEW places to hide anywhere in the world. The Beast will be given authority to overcome the saints...and the saints will be found around the world.

We are specifically told these things will happen “in the latter time of their kingdom, When the transgressors have reached their fullness.” (verse 23) So we know this is an end time prophecy. That is, that this prophecy applies to the same general time period as those about “the Assyrian” and “the king of the North

I disagree. It specifically says the latter time of THEIR KINGDOM. This is speaking of the last days of the GREEK kingdom, before Rome finally conquered the last part of Greece, in the days of Antony and Cleopatra. Specifically it is about Antiochus Epiphanes. Maybe people try to find those 2300 days into end times, but they simply don't fit.

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

This is very clear that "out of one of them" refers to the four generals. It fits Antiochus perfectly.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom...

19 "the last end of the indignation:"

Who is "their Kingdom?" It is the kingdom of the four generals, or the GRECIAN kingdom. The two phrases of verses 23 and 19 are speaking the same thing. This chapter is simply not about the Beast of Rev. 13.

Do you believe the "man of sin" that enters the temple and says "I am God" will be a JEW? It seems you are saying this will be the cause of the "desolation." I believe the man of sin will become the Beast of Rev. 13 and will also be the "Assyrian." I think he will be possessed by Satan as soon as Satan is cast down in Rev. 12. It is Satan that will cause the desolations. He hates all people, but especially hates Israel. Working through the Beast, he will repeat what Nebuchadnezzar with the image. Satan LOVES to put people under pressure to deny their God.

Aside from their blasphemy against and crucifixion of Jesus, This will clearly be the worst profaning of the Lord’s name ever done by His rebellious people. But after Gog is destroyed, the Lord “will not let” His people Israel “profane” His holy name “anymore.” So that destruction cannot take place before the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week.

I have long believed that Ezekiel 38 and 39 were about the final battle when Jesus descends as in Rev. 19. It is when God gathers His "guests."

That detail is that there is a change in characters in this verse. The point in this statement was not who this new character was, but only that the basic structure of the language indicates that the "one who makes desolate" is not "the prince who is to come."

There are many translations of Daniel 9:27. Some read as you wrote it, but some do not. When I read Revelation, God's final word on the end times, I see TWO beasts: THE beast and the false prophet. Is it possible the false prophet is the Assyrian? I don't think so. Neither do I think there will be another besides the Beast. I must conclude then, that the Beast and the Assyrian are one and the same, OR ELSE all references to "the Assyrian" from the Old Covenant were not speaking of the same time as Revelation.

if you were actually willing to listen a little

HOW do you know I am not willing to listen? In fact, I have changed my opinion about something in the last couple of weeks, because of what someone posted.

This post is too long to respond to anything else.

LAMAD

Biblewriter wrote,You insist that the Holy Spirit "was not speaking of geography." But in actual fact, this is exactly what He did. He identified this woman two ways. the first way, which you dismissed so cavalierly, was by saying she sat on seven mountains. At that time, there was exactly one city in the entire world that was known as "the city of seven hills." And that one city was Rome. The physical proof of this is still available for people to see in the coin below. This was minted by the Roman government only about 20 years before the Revelation was given, and it depicts Rome as a woman sitting on seven hills. This coin is called the Roma sestertius of Vespacian.

Let's look:

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was....

Now, is John talking about the woman, or the Beast? Of course, the BEAST.

He is STILL talking about the BEAST, not the woman:

9 ... The seven heads are seven mountains, ... And there are seven kings:

What is this telling us? The Author had ONE thing for this to mean. But many readers, with many preconceptions, will come up with many different meanings. They all may be wrong. You have a preconception of Rome, so to you this means seven kings of ROME, because you think the seven mountains refers to the seven hills of Rome. I think the 7 mountains refers to seven significant nations at play at the end.

Commentaries are not much help. Most think "papacy" and so have that preconception.

Notice the final verse: 8 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The woman, seen RIDING the beast shows us what this verse TELLS us: that this woman (city) will REIGN over the kings of the earth. This is not speaking of John's time; it is speaking of specifically the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th week, and even the time AFTER the 70th week shown by chapters 17 & 18, just before Jesus returns. Do you picture ROME as the leading power of the Beast? (Or the Assyrian?) I don't.

"the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:"

She is sitting on a beast, but at the same time, "many waters." Therefore, the BEAST (not the man but the kingdom) equals "many waters."

Now note: "The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

So the Beast empire is made up of "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues," and this city is ruling over them. So is this talking about The city of Rome? Or is it talking about JERUSALEM? It cannot be both.

WHERE will the man of sin be when he declares he is GOD? Of course, Jerusalem.

Rev 11
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

WHERE will this temple be? Of course, JERUSALEM. What are these verses telling us? Before the man of sin can enter the temple in Jerusalem, he must first ENTER JERUSALEM. This verse shows the man of sin with his Muslim armies entering Jerusalem, 3 1/2 days before the abomination. It will be his heathen armies that will trample the city for the next 42 months or the last half of the week. Notice, this is not given in days, because it is not accurate to the very day. The Beast will not be captured until some time AFTER the 7th vial ends the week. A day? A week? It will be the time of the marriage and supper in heaven.

Next, the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven, marking the very moment that the man of sin declares that he is God.

In 12:6 we see those living in Judea fleeing, because they have seen the abomination. Next, we read that there is great war in heaven.

12 ... Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

HOW will the devil (dragon) persecute the woman? He must use PEOPLE. Here he will use the man of sin. I believe the moment the dragon is cast down, he will possess the man of sin which will become the BEAST of chapter 13. I can only "believe" because I have not received revelation knowledge on this. He will be frustrated in his attempt to get the woman, (those that fled) because they will be supernaturally protected.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So the Dragon turns on all other believers, Jew and Gentile, still on the planet. Why only a "remnant?" Because the pretrib rapture took the Bride out - only a remnant of believers are left. AGain, HOW is the Dragon doing this? I believe with the man of sin now turned BEAST and his armies, already in Jerusalem. Please notice, this is all taking place in JERUSALEM and surrounding areas.

13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Note carefully this is RIGHT AFTER Satan the dragon has gone after the remnant of Israel's (the woman's - those living in Israel) seed. It is the same man of sin turned beast a few verses earlier. WHAT they are these 7 heads? John tells us in chapter 17. They are seven significant nations with 7 kings. Is it Rome? How can it be, when John is centering his narrative on Jerusalem?

What do horns represent?

Dan 7:24 [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Horns are KINGs. It should go without saying, a KING has a KINGDOM. Also note, an 11th horn rose up and takes out three kings. Again, It should go without saying, he takes out their kingdoms with them. if we counted the HEADS in Rev. 7, there are 7 heads, the lion, the bear, the leopard with 4, and the dreadful with one. Many people think these are to represent Babylon, MedoPersia, Greece and Rome - and in a way, they DO. But this is an end time vision, so they represent END TIME kingdoms. Iraq is still there, with later generations living there. Iran is still there with people living there. it would seem the leopard with four heads would represent the same nations they represented back then, with Assyria and Egypt the two major ones.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]All these nations exist today, they are mostly Muslim nations, and they all HATE Israel. They all surround Israel.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So when I read:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"[/FONT]The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

I must refer right back to Daniel chapter 7. There "heads" represent different nations, NOT ROME.

John does not get back to the woman until verse 18.

We must understand, this BEAST will rule from JERUSALEM. He will deceive the ENTIRE WORLD from Jerusalem. Is it no wonder then, that God would call Jerusalem the "Great Wh**E Babylon? Jerusalem was suppose to teach the world the TRUTH of the Gospel of Jesus Christ - but in the end, deceives the WHOLE WORLD with lying wonders.

Of course, all of this is only my opinion, or I have not received any revelation knowledge on this part of Revelation.


LAMAD

Biblewriter wrote;
"I believe" has no place in scriptural teaching. If you cannot demonstrate a concept from scripture, it has no place in scriptural traching.

In controversial scriptures, unless we hear from heaven, and KNOW what a verse means, we can only GUESS what it means. That is why we have so many different opinions on this forum. So the truth is, people BELIEVE they know what a verse is saying. If you have not heard from heaven on a verse, you too can only believe what you THINK the verse is saying: case in point, the 7 heads and 7 kings. You THINK you know what that means, and I THINK I know, yet we disagree.

In fact, I WAS demonstrating a concept from Scripture, but what you believe about a scripture and what I believe may be two different things. Again, you know as well as I there are MANY different opinions about the same scriptures on this forum. The fact is, I disagree with you on Rome, because when I study Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 and the entire book of Revelation, I cannot see Rome.

If you can show us through scripture that the temple John is sent to measure will be in Rome, you might have something. However, when Jesus returns, He will return to ISRAEL, and to Jerusalem, not to Rome.

LAMAD

Biblewriter wrote,
All the boldfaced portion of this is 100% pure, unadulterated, speculation. You are forgetting that the ten horns are on the beast, in both Daniel 7 and Revelation 12, 13, and 17.

If you study Daniel 7, THREE of those ten horns get taken down, so cannot be counted...yet in Revelation 17 the ten are ten kings that throw in with the Beast for one hour AT THE VERY END - AFTER the 70th week is done. They simply cannot be the same ten. These last ten will not be a part of the Beast's kingdom, or they would not have to "give their kingdom to the beast" as he would already be controlling them.

LAMAD

Biblewriter wrote,

Thank you for admitting this. You are using only human wisdom, and that wisdom is not spiritual. It is foolishness.

I guess then, you have ANOTHER KIND of wisdom? Who are you kidding? If you have not heard from God on a verse, you have NOTHING ELSE BUT Human wisdom. Without the Holy Spirit as our teacher, we have only our own wisdom. MOST denominations have come from human wisdom. Is it any wonder we have so many that all disagree?

There is a way to hear from God on a verse. It is Revelation knowledge. Paul found the source of this, and Jesus said this was how He would build His church. However, few today know how to get God to reveal scripture to them. So ALL THEY HAVE is human wisdom.

If you have some other way of understanding scripture, please share it.

LAMAD

Biblewriter wrote, If you cannot clearly demonstrate this from the scriptures, you do not know it.

If this statement is true, it is true for you and all other writes on this forum.

CAn you find Rome as the ONLY head in Dan. 7? I find 7 heads there. One for Iraq, or Babylon, one for Persia or Iran, one for each of the four heads of the Greecian Kingdom, and ONE HEAD for Rome.

Next, the temple from which the Beast will operate will be in JERUSALEM, not Rome.

LAMAD

iamlamad said:

YOU MISSED what I said: "When it comes to the 70th week, I DO have revelation knowledge. I am sure of what I write. I know the truth, because God spoke it to me." He took me step by step through chapter's 4 & 5, and sent me specifically to find the "entire 70th week clearly marked." Those were HIS words, not mine. First He sent me to find the "exact midpoint clearly marked." He told me HOW to find it. The entire 70th week is "marked" by 7's: the 7th seal opens the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends the week. On these things I am VERY SURE.

I told you I did not receive any revelation knowledge on this part of Revelation, so can only use HUMAN wisdom. Now let's compare: Has God SPOKEN to you about this part of scripture? DId you hear His voice and His words? If He has not, then we are on a level playing field. We try our best, with HUMAN understanding, to find the intent of the Author.

Click to expand...

The scriptures do not say, let the prophets speak, and let the others submit to their words. They say, "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge." (1 Corinthians 14:29)

When a man claims that the Lord has directly revealed something to him in a personal way, that man is speaking as a prophet. And the scriptures instruct me to judge what he says.

There is only one standard by which we can judge, and that standard is the scriptures themselves.

I have heard many others come and go, both here and elsewhere, claiming that God directly revealed things to them. Without even one exception, every one of them has proceeded to say things that directly contradicted other scriptures. And your claim is no exception to this rule.

I am not going to argue with you, for I truly appreciate much of what you post. But Galatians 5:22-23 tells us that "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control." It saddens me much that I do not see this fruit in your postings.

And I am not some youngster rebuking an elder. I am older than the 67 years you claim, and have known the Lord quite a bit longer than the 60 years you claim. And I have devoted more years to the intense study and teaching of the prophetic scriptures than the 40 years you claim to have been filled with the spirit.

Biblewriter said:

The scriptures do not say, let the prophets speak, and let the others submit to their words. They say, "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge." (1 Corinthians 14:29)

When a man claims that the Lord has directly revealed something to him in a personal way, that man is speaking as a prophet. And the scriptures instruct me to judge what he says.

There is only one standard by which we can judge, and that standard is the scriptures themselves.

I have heard many others come and go, both here and elsewhere, claiming that God directly revealed things to them. Without even one exception, every one of them has proceeded to say things that directly contradicted other scriptures. And your claim is no exception to this rule.

I am not going to argue with you, for I truly appreciate much of what you post. But Galatians 5:22-23 tells us that "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control." It saddens me much that I do not see this fruit in your postings.

And I am not some youngster rebuking an elder. I am older than the 67 years you claim, and have known the Lord quite a bit longer than the 60 years you claim. And I have devoted more years to the intense study and teaching of the prophetic scriptures than the 40 years you claim to have been filled with the spirit.

Click to expand...

I agree, when one speaks, we judge what he says (or writes) by the scriptures. But we have no other recourse than OUR UNDERSTANDING of the scriptures.

And your claim is no exception to this rule.

Please Specify. I told you I have no revelation knowledge on our subject. I have written on this subject by my own limited knowledge of chapter 17 and Daniel. If you want to talk about the 70th week of Daniel, then you can claim this "no exception." God has spoken to me much on chapters 4 & 5 and the 70th week "clearly marked." If you disagree with me that the 70th week is clearly marked by the 7's, then according to YOUR understanding, I have missed it, perhaps listened to the wrong spirit. I will give you something else to judge: the vision of chapters 4 and 5 were a vision of the PAST - John's past at the time of the visions. John was looking into the throne room during a time BEFORE Jesus rose from the dead. Now you can either agree or disagree. However, I KNOW how God taught this to me.

has proceeded to say things that directly contradicted other scriptures.

How can you say this? It has to be YOUR UNDERSTANDING of other scriptures. Perhaps it is your understanding that is flawed, not the other scriptures. Many people here are VERY SURE that the rapture of the church will come at the END. They are just as sure as you are of the 7 hills referring to Rome. But they are VERY WRONG. It is their UNDERSTANDING of the scriptures that are wrong.

Do you understand, MOST of what Paul wrote came from revelation knowledge? He did not walk with Jesus. But yet his understanding far surpassed the other 11. Even Peter said Paul wrote of things hard to understand...yet these things came to Paul by REVEALED knowledge.

I don't know much about you, but I will guess you, like so many others here, have BYPASSED Acts 1 and 2, and have lived your life without the benefit of these two chapters having happened in YOUR LIFE.

There is no question that God loves us, but yet he also chastens us. And during the 70th week will appear to have abandoned those left behind. Love however, can still be love and chasten. Paul was certainly not nice to those who would pervert his gospel.

We must stand strong against the onslaughts of false doctrine. When it comes to the rapture, it is a very serious doctrine. Being left behind will cause some to fall.

I don't wish to argue either. I hope we are close in rapture doctrine. If you think I was out of line in saying you should change your name (biblewriter) I repent. However, I still think you must write TRUTH, as I must also.

Please, since you believe I had contradicted the scriptures, or your understanding of scriptures, bring them out and we can discuss them. I don't think I have.

LAMAD

iamlamad said:

I agree, when one speaks, we judge what he says (or writes) by the scriptures. But we have no other recourse than OUR UNDERSTANDING of the scriptures.

And your claim is no exception to this rule.

Please Specify. I told you I have no revelation knowledge on our subject. I have written on this subject by my own limited knowledge of chapter 17 and Daniel. If you want to talk about the 70th week of Daniel, then you can claim this "no exception." God has spoken to me much on chapters 4 & 5 and the 70th week "clearly marked." If you disagree with me that the 70th week is clearly marked by the 7's, then according to YOUR understanding, I have missed it, perhaps listened to the wrong spirit. I will give you something else to judge: the vision of chapters 4 and 5 were a vision of the PAST - John's past at the time of the visions. John was looking into the throne room during a time BEFORE Jesus rose from the dead. Now you can either agree or disagree. However, I KNOW how God taught this to me.

has proceeded to say things that directly contradicted other scriptures.

How can you say this? It has to be YOUR UNDERSTANDING of other scriptures. Perhaps it is your understanding that is flawed, not the other scriptures. Many people here are VERY SURE that the rapture of the church will come at the END. They are just as sure as you are of the 7 hills referring to Rome. But they are VERY WRONG. It is their UNDERSTANDING of the scriptures that are wrong.

Do you understand, MOST of what Paul wrote came from revelation knowledge? He did not walk with Jesus. But yet his understanding far surpassed the other 11. Even Peter said Paul wrote of things hard to understand...yet these things came to Paul by REVEALED knowledge.

I don't know much about you, but I will guess you, like so many others here, have BYPASSED Acts 1 and 2, and have lived your life without the benefit of these two chapters having happened in YOUR LIFE.

There is no question that God loves us, but yet he also chastens us. And during the 70th week will appear to have abandoned those left behind. Love however, can still be love and chasten. Paul was certainly not nice to those who would pervert his gospel.

We must stand strong against the onslaughts of false doctrine. When it comes to the rapture, it is a very serious doctrine. Being left behind will cause some to fall.

I don't wish to argue either. I hope we are close in rapture doctrine. If you think I was out of line in saying you should change your name (biblewriter) I repent. However, I still think you must write TRUTH, as I must also.

Please, since you believe I had contradicted the scriptures, or your understanding of scriptures, bring them out and we can discuss them. I don't think I have.

LAMAD

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Paul was not writing with the kind of "revelation knowledge" you claim to possess. He was writing under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and as such everything He wrote is absolutely true and accurate, down to its finest details.

But your claim that Daniel 4 and 5 is about the seventieth week contradicts what these chapters say.

The "seven times" in Daniel 4 were the time during which the individual man, Nebuchadnezzar was given the heart of a beast and driven from the presence of men. This is very clearly stated in verse 25 and verses 32-34, and again in Chapter 5, verse21. And its purpose was to teach him that the most high rules over the kingdoms of men, and gives them to whomever He wants to. This is clearly stated in Daniel 4:17, 25-26, and 32 and Daniel 5:20-21. Its successful results are clearly stated in verses 3 and 32, and verses 20-21 of chapter 5.

The seventy weeks, on the other hand were appointed for Daniel's people and Daniel's holy city. (Daniel 9:24) And they were "To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy." (Daniel 9:24)

Biblewriter said:

Paul was not writing with the kind of "revelation knowledge" you claim to possess. He was writing under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and as such everything He wrote is absolutely true and accurate, down to its finest details.

But your claim that Daniel 4 and 5 is about the seventieth week contradicts what these chapters say.

The "seven times" in Daniel 4 were the time during which the individual man, Nebuchadnezzar was given the heart of a beast and driven from the presence of men. This is very clearly stated in verse 25 and verses 32-34, and again in Chapter 5, verse21. And its purpose was to teach him that the most high rules over the kingdoms of men, and gives them to whomever He wants to. This is clearly stated in Daniel 4:17, 25-26, and 32 and Daniel 5:20-21. Its successful results are clearly stated in verses 3 and 32, and verses 20-21 of chapter 5.

The seventy weeks, on the other hand were appointed for Daniel's people and Daniel's holy city. (Daniel 9:24) And they were "To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy." (Daniel 9:24)

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I agree, Paul's revelation knowledge was on a level above what we can live today, because he was chosen to write much of our New Testament. What am I to do? just IGNORE the words God has spoken to me? That would not be showing Him much respect. Neither am I to keep quiet. They are for me to share and use to teach others. It is up to others to believe or not to believe as they choose.

No no, I was talking about Revelation 4 & 5. Revelation 4 & 5 is the vision of the throne room in heaven - a vision of the past to John These two chapters are the CONTEXT of the first seals. Sorry, I was not more clear. It is Daniel 2 and 7 that are about end times. Daniel 7 even mentions the last 3 1/2 years, as time, times and the dividing of time.

You are right about Daniel 4 & 5.

Lamad

iamlamad said:

I agree, Paul's revelation knowledge was on a level above what we can live today, because he was chosen to write much of our New Testament. What am I to do? just IGNORE the words God has spoken to me? That would not be showing Him much respect. Neither am I to keep quiet. They are for me to share and use to teach others. It is up to others to believe or not to believe as they choose.

No no, I was talking about Revelation 4 & 5. Revelation 4 & 5 is the vision of the throne room in heaven - a vision of the past to John These two chapters are the CONTEXT of the first seals. Sorry, I was not more clear. It is Daniel 2 and 7 that are about end times. Daniel 7 even mentions the last 3 1/2 years, as time, times and the dividing of time.

You are right about Daniel 4 & 5.

Lamad

Click to expand...

We old guys might even understand each other, some day!

Biblewriter said:

We old guys might even understand each other, some day!

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If you are older than I am, you are doing very well!

iamlamad said in post 55:

We must stand strong against the onslaughts of false doctrine. When it comes to the rapture, it is a very serious doctrine. Being left behind will cause some to fall.

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The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-trib. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers less prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16) so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).