The Gospel of Thomas

[brad1tim24]

I have a question to everyone who find light and truth in the gospesl of Thomas.
Why, if this book is so in line with other gospels did it not make "god's holy word?" Also, if we say that men chose the books, then we must admit that it wasn't divine insipration at all but human politics. I would agree that the gospel of Thomas has much to offer but I wonder why it didn't make it and what that says in general.

the men of Rome had already made their "cannon" long before these many documents were discovered.....they will never add to the Bible. Yet, does everyone know that there were MANY different canons (pre-New Testaments) in circulation in the 2nd century? Rome had the other canons destroyed. We are left with what they deemed holy and inspired. Let's face it, God inspires us all, right? Then should we not suppose that there are other writings outside of the Bible that are truly inspired by God? Did God stop inspiring men (women) after Paul died? Of course not! We must open our minds to the wisdom and truth of God whereever we may find it.

peace,
brad

 

[meebs]

Are you talking about Thomas or Luke? That part is already in the bible.

no that tells you must leave your family behind i havent read hate in my versions

I guess religion is an opium of the masses, the reason why these gospels were left out was because it might show the potential nasty side effects.

 

[Charlie V]

Because it indicates that the Church isn't needed as a mediator between God and man.

Even if Jesus himself made these claims, he'd be nailed to a... huh... oh... that's kinda what happened.

Pharisees made the claim that Jesus wasn't related to God in any way, but to Satan, because his message made it clear that the presently established religions took away the possibility of a one on one relationship with God.

Interesting viewpoint.

I always suspected it had more to do with the verse where Jesus names his brother James the Just as his sucessor, while the Roman church traced its heritage through Peter the "rock."

For those intererested in the Thomas Gospel and the Gospel Parallels, let me provide an interesting link:

The Five Gospel Parallels

This provides you with links to compare the four Gospels, the book of Thomas and also some of the other New Testament books (such as Paul's works) and their parallel passages. One of my favorite sub-links is this, the side-by-side view of all the Gospels plus Paul


Five + Paul Vertical

All of the books open up in side-by-side windows. As you're reading one Gospel, there are links to position the other gospels to the parallel passage when parallels exist, so you can compare them.

Charlie

 

[McCravey]

Although I know the Gnostic beliefs do not fit with the common Orthodox, what is so unusual about it is that the Gnostic can agree with the Nicene Creed. Although the Orthodox claimed that the Gnostic may agree with the statements of the Creed but does not have the same set of beliefs as the Orthodox----therefore should not be considered Christian.

Well anyway, I am leaning strongly toward the early Gnostic (I'm not sure I can hang with modern Gnostics) postions and beliefs. Perhaps we should request a location we could discuss them without hi-jacking Liberal Christianity.

But, just in case, it is certainly a good place to discuss them.

 

[Charlie V]

Well anyway, I am leaning strongly toward the early Gnostic (I'm not sure I can hang with modern Gnostics) postions and beliefs. Perhaps we should request a location we could discuss them without hi-jacking Liberal Christianity.

I've read quite a bit of early Gnostic writings, and while I do take a liking to the Gospel of Thomas, there are some scholars who have suggested that it isn't entirely Gnostic--certainly, it doesn't contain some of the elements of early Gnosticism. It's really closer to the canonical works than to the Gnostic works.

Many of the ideas of the Gnostics, I take a liking to. But much of their early writings, at least, if taken literally, honestly, are pretty way-out.

Then again, I feel the same way about Revelation, which, if taken literally, is pretty way-out, and much closer to being a Gnostic text than the Gospel of Thomas!

Charlie

 

[McCravey]

I've read quite a bit of early Gnostic writings, and while I do take a liking to the Gospel of Thomas, there are some scholars who have suggested that it isn't entirely Gnostic--certainly, it doesn't contain some of the elements of early Gnosticism. It's really closer to the canonical works than to the Gnostic works.

Many of the ideas of the Gnostics, I take a liking to. But much of their early writings, at least, if taken literally, honestly, are pretty way-out.

Then again, I feel the same way about Revelation, which, if taken literally, is pretty way-out, and much closer to being a Gnostic text than the Gospel of Thomas!

Charlie

I don't particularly care for the Gospels and writings that aren't Christ oriented. The Gospel of Thomas has a lot of Gnostic concepts in it....well, actually, the entire Bible is full of Gnostic concepts....if read figuratively.

Of all of them, the Gospel of Thomas is my favorite.

 

[HomeBound]

The acts of John are my favorite.

 

[HomeBound]

Especially when Jesus visits John, while he's supposed to be on the cross.

 

[brad1tim24]

Hi all,

My real intention of this thread is to show that the Gospel of Thomas is in many ways superior to the others because it goes farther into the spiritual realm of understanding. It helps to support the teachings of Paul where the other Gospels are silent. Some have made the claim that Paul is a heretic because many of his ideas/teachings are not found in the Bible. Further, he never met the phyiscal Jesus face to face, yet he had all this higher knowledge of Christ.


Here is another passage that I feel shows that this Gospel is completely in line with Jesus' and Paul's higher (secret?) teachings.


God bless you all!



brad




77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

To some this and other passages in Thomas’ Gospel may sound a little like “New Age” language. I know many Christians who have been taught that the New Age philosophy is evil and a device of the devil. Again, I ask; do you want to know the truth? If Christians are truly seeking the Truth, then they will find that the sincere “New Agers” are simply doing the same. In fact, I would say Jesus was the greatest New Ager the world has ever seen! Not only did he definitely start a NEW age, but, as we read in many passages, he also spoke their language!

It is recorded in the Bible that Jesus the Christ said, “I am the way, the truth and the light.” Do they realize that Jesus was teaching the mantra of the New Age philosophy! Many Christians do not want to face the Truth because it means the end of comfortable religions. The light of Truth removes the shadows of falseness. Life in Christ is your true life while life in the flesh is your false life. The mind of Christ is your true mind while the carnal mind is false. Yes, I AM is the only way to salvation, which is Christ-consciousness. Skeptical Christians should take seriously what Paul taught concerning the MIND of Christ in 1 Corinthians 2:16. When Paul says that we HAVE the mind of Christ, isn’t Paul teaching about having Christ’s consciousness? When Moses went high into his consciousness and communed with God to know Him as I AM, didn’t he speak with Christ? Even so, Jesus went farther than any other man and became the embodiment of I AM, of Christ. How entertaining it would be if Jesus came to a typical Christian church some Sunday morning! The typical congregation would be angered, appalled and confused from his teachings just as many were 2,000 years ago! But let’s get back to saying 77.

So understand that when Jesus said, “I am the light that is over all things” in Thomas:77 he trying to convey a mystery that has been hidden from man. In the story of Genesis, do you recall what man was kept from in the garden? Yes, I AM is the tree of life! So this particular saying represents one of the most illuminating passages concerning the identity of Christ. Understand that Christ Jesus isn’t saying that the natural man born of Mary was over all things. He wasn’t claiming that all things have come from the natural man who was the son of a carpenter. No, Jesus (the son of man) didn’t create the universe, but Christ (the Son of God) did! As I have discussed many times before, Jesus became Christ by sacrificing himself to God just as we are called to be living sacrifices. Christ, not Jesus, is the beginning of all things and is the Word of God. Christians should be familiar with this revelation if they have absorbed the higher truth written in Paul’s letter to the Colossians.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

By the Word of God all things seen and unseen were created and are held together. The Word is before all things because the Word was with God in the beginning. Do you see how this fits perfectly with Jesus’ words in saying 77? Ironically, I believe that Paul knew Christ better than those who actually followed Jesus around Judea. Paul wrote some pretty deep stuff that none of the others did, so I have spent considerable effort in many writings showing how powerful it is. I wish all who call themselves Christians would read these words from Colossians carefully and meditate on what is being said here. By doing so, they might be more able to clearly see Christ as the Word of God and Jesus as the Word made flesh. Over the years, I have come to respect Paul’s spiritual understanding more than any other person spoken of in the Bible except Jesus of course. In fact, some of his deep, spiritual insights seem to have very little Gospel support, which is not surprising because the gospel stories of Jesus were handed down from person to person. Paul knew in his spirit and wrote first hand about the revelation of Christ, the savior of the world. Paul definitely separated himself from the others, which is why some have gone so far as to call Paul’s teachings heretical. These critics would rather see Christianity as an extension of Judaism and Paul as one who wrongly worked to separate them. If it were not for Paul, Christianity would simply be another Jewish sect. As it is though, Paul’s letters are in perfect spiritual harmony with the teachings of Jesus and the wisdom found in the Gospel of Thomas.

And what is the wisdom? It is that Christ is before all things, created all things and holds all things together. When I say all things, I mean ALL THINGS including every man, every tree and every stone. Split a piece of wood, and “I AM is there.” Everything and everyone is here for Christ whether they know it or not. Jesus realized this and surrendered his lower will and life for God’s perfect will and life. Through his choice, Jesus, who was like us in every way, became Christ. Paul, who knew this, was also dying daily to let Christ live through him continually.

---an excerpt from my commentary on the Gospel of Thomas---

 

[Charlie V]

I don't particularly care for the Gospels and writings that aren't Christ oriented.

Out of curiosity, those who have read up on ancient Gnosticism, what do you all think of the Gnostic interpretation of Genesis, the Demiurge, Adam and Eve and the serpent?

Charlie

 

[meebs]

Out of curiosity, those who have read up on ancient Gnosticism, what do you all think of the Gnostic interpretation of Genesis, the Demiurge, Adam and Eve and the serpent?

Charlie

may i ahve a link to these if you have any, please?

im curious

thankyou

 

[McCravey]

the men of Rome had already made their "cannon" long before these many documents were discovered.....they will never add to the Bible. Yet, does everyone know that there were MANY different canons (pre-New Testaments) in circulation in the 2nd century? Rome had the other canons destroyed. We are left with what they deemed holy and inspired. Let's face it, God inspires us all, right? Then should we not suppose that there are other writings outside of the Bible that are truly inspired by God? Did God stop inspiring men (women) after Paul died? Of course not! We must open our minds to the wisdom and truth of God whereever we may find it.

peace,
brad

Actually the Gospel of Thomas existed before the Cannon was settled upon by the Orthodox. The Nag Hammadi codex (considered to be Gnostic by nature) existed around 150 AD.

Opponents of Gnosticism settled on the four basic Gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke and later John. John is considered to be written with the purpose of refuting Thomas. It didn't work though....Gnostics, after reading John, considered it also to be full of Gnostic concepts.

Many of the Epistles supposedly written by Paul was actually written to discredit Gnostics. Many Gnostics' names are written in some of these as being damned, evil, seducers, etc. by the Orthodox.

Part of the problem is most of the Bible wasn't written by the people whose names are on the title. It was a common practice to do this in that period of history.

So in order to overcome this problem you have to go back to what Christ said in the very beginning....."He who has ears let him hear what the spirit is saying."

If it doesn't speak to you then you don't consider it nor fret over it. Just go with what you understand.

And yes, the Logos is still speaking.

 

[McCravey]

may i ahve a link to these if you have any, please?

im curious

thankyou

I don't have a link, but a great reference book would be Elaine Pagels' book The Gnostic Gospels. Here is a link about the book: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/pagels.html

 

[McCravey]

Out of curiosity, those who have read up on ancient Gnosticism, what do you all think of the Gnostic interpretation of Genesis, the Demiurge, Adam and Eve and the serpent?

Charlie

The Story of Genesis. (my thoughts, whether Gnostic or not)

Man was split into male and female. Some of the Gnostic texts make reference to this split being....re-united. The split represents something about being made whole again....the need of the female form reuniting with the male....very spiritual in its idea.

The snake was the "wisest" of the creatures (not evil) Later Christ says be wise as serpents.......?

Eve got in trouble for wanting to be "wise".....?

Wisdom (Sophia) is given the female gender when spoken of...even by Christ.....thereby an allegory to Eve (Wisdom, Holy Spirit)

Eve (Sophia) female version of the Holy Spirit reunites with Logos, Word, Christ...in what the bible speaks of as Marriage ceremony...inner chamber...Wise virgins sort of a thing...and they produce life.....our life.

With the Holy Spirit Christ's words become life giving....like seed falling on good soil.

God says...."now they have become like us"...whats up with that....what were they before....not like us?

My people are destroyed for lack of wisdom?

All of these contradicting statements have to be sorted out by asking questions....this is what the Gnostics were led to do.

All of these are hints that should lead us to more questions we should be asking God, like they did.

The demiurge.

Man in his fallen condition needs someone to punish him, lead him, give him the rules, require the blood sacrifices, etc. The character of this God is much different than who we know as "the father" His character is best introduced to us when Moses had to take the second trip up the mountain.

It is not that the demiurge is evil....just demented....capable of both good and evil....."behold did I not create darkness and light....good and evil".

The demiurge is the one with the rules. Understanding that the rules do not apply to us is one of the steps of leaving the authority of the demiurge and following "The Father".

That becomes the problems of Christians today, we don't know how to seperate these two concepts of God. The Gnostics did that by naming them.

 

[Charlie V]

may i ahve a link to these if you have any, please?

im curious

thankyou

I don't know one off the top of my head, specifically, though there are thousands you can find with a google search.

If you want to read books on the topic, let me recommend Elaine Pagels "The Gnostic Gospels."

If you're interested in reading translations of the actual texts, the Naj Hammadi Library is the most extensive group of texts I know of. I own and read it.

If you don't want to buy them, they may be available at your local library.

If you do want to buy them, you can check sites like Amazon or BN.com (Barnes & Noble). You might even find used copies of some of these on ebay, if you're lucky.

Charlie

 

[Charlie V]

I don't have a link, but a great reference book would be Elaine Pagels' book The Gnostic Gospels. Here is a link about the book: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/pagels.html

LOL.. you beat me to it suggesting Elaine Pagel's book!

Charlie

 

[Charlie V]

sJohn is considered to be written with the purpose of refuting Thomas. It didn't work though....Gnostics, after reading John, considered it also to be full of Gnostic concepts.

Well...

That is the view espoused by Elaine Pagels in one of her more recent books, "Beyond Belief."

I'm not entirely convinced this is the case, though I didn't finish reading her book, I did read about half of it. Unfortunately, my copy of Beyond Belief was destroyed in a flood, and I'm not sure when or whether I'll feel like springing for another copy. May be I'll check my library.

Charlie

 

[McCravey]

Well...

That is the view espoused by Elaine Pagels in one of her more recent books, "Beyond Belief."

I'm not entirely convinced this is the case, though I didn't finish reading her book, I did read about half of it. Unfortunately, my copy of Beyond Belief was destroyed in a flood, and I'm not sure when or whether I'll feel like springing for another copy. May be I'll check my library.

Charlie

Yes, of course it is all conjecture. They think that John was written that way because it has the story of "Doubting Thomas" along with other parallels that seem to be written in answer to some Thomas sayings.

By the way, get the book again (worth the $12). I've loaned out both copies of mine and now I wish I had them back for these discussions.
You were in a flood?....Hurricane related?

And I am reading through the N. H. library. So far I like Exegisis of the Soul, Gospel of Thomas (of course), The Gospel of Truth, and The Gospel of Mary.

 

[McCravey]

Well...

That is the view espoused by Elaine Pagels in one of her more recent books, "Beyond Belief."

I'm not entirely convinced this is the case, though I didn't finish reading her book, I did read about half of it. Unfortunately, my copy of Beyond Belief was destroyed in a flood, and I'm not sure when or whether I'll feel like springing for another copy. May be I'll check my library.

Charlie

Not trying to get off subject but:

I've noticed that there is an order to this process.

If we don't develop the love displayed by Christ then the idea of Gnosis seems to dement the one searching for it. Paul wrote about this process.

 

[HomeBound]

Not trying to get off subject but:

I've noticed that there is an order to this process.

If we don't develop the love displayed by Christ then the idea of Gnosis seems to dement the one searching for it. Paul wrote about this process.

I agree. Love has definately something to do with understanding.