The gospel in the Old Testament.

[Der Alte]

I can't remember the last time I started a thread. This may or may not be "controversial." I heard this on Christian radio in California about 25 years ago while driving home from work. I did not believe it so as soon as I got home I pulled out my big green Strong's and started checking.

Gen 5:1 This is the written account of Adam's line. When YHWH created man, he made him in the likeness of YHWH. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "Adam/man".
Gen 4:25 Adam lay with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, "God has appointed me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him."
Gen 5:6 Seth . . .became the father of Enosh.
9 Enosh . . .became the father of Kenan.
12 Kenan . . .became the father of Mahalaleel.
15 Mahalaleel . . .became the father of Jared.
18 Jared. . .became the father of Enoch.
21 Enoch . . .became the father of Methuselah.
25 Methuselah . . .became the father of Lamech.
28 Lamech . . .had a son.
Gen 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed. ​

Hebrew names have specific meaning.

Adam means Man(kind)
Seth means Appointed
Enosh means Mortal
Kenan means Sorrow (Lamentation)
Mahalaleel meansThe Blessed El/Praise of El
Jared means Shall Come Down
Enoch means Teaching
Methuselah means His death Shall Bring (send forth)
Lamech means to the Suffering wounded/stricken)
Noah - Comfort/Rest​

When these names are read in Hebrew they mean "Man(kind) (is) appointed mortal sorrow. (But) the Blessed God shall come down, teaching (that) His death shall bring to the suffering, comfort/rest."

 

[Danigt22]

Good post OP. Grace has come to all of us.

 

[tampasteve]

I don't buy it. They are proper names and intended to be understood that way. At best they are transliterations for the Hebrew. Hebrew is generally meant to be understood in context, and the words are being taken out of context here. See the "alma" controversy to just how contextual the matter is.

I also find that the lack of NT or ECF commentary on this would imply that it is an interesting way of us to look back at the text, but the meaning is not accurate as being presented here.

The NT writers and founders of the faith would have been intimately familiar with the text and messianic prophesies, they have shown us many of them both in the New Testament and outside of it in other early writings. It seems incredibly unlikely they would have missed this.

Even if it was meant to be read as the way presented here, the identification could rest on more people than Jesus. It can even be split up to read:
"Man(kind) (is) appointed mortal sorrow. (But) the Blessed God shall come down and teach (that) his (man's) death shall bring suffering and comfort/rest."

In other words, Man must suffer, but God will teach them that in death there is both suffering and comfort. "Come down" could be interpreted as coming in voice/inspiration to the Prophets, at the shekinah in the Temple, etc. This would square well too.

 

[Dkh587]

I don't buy it. They are proper names and intended to be understood that way. At best they are transliterations for the Hebrew. Hebrew is generally meant to be understood in context, and the words are being taken out of context here. See the "alma" controversy to just how contextual the matter is.

I also find that the lack of NT or ECF commentary on this would imply that it is an interesting way of us to look back at the text, but the meaning is not accurate as being presented here.

The NT writers and founders of the faith would have been intimately familiar with the text and messianic prophesies, they have shown us many of them both in the New Testament and outside of it in other early writings. It seems incredibly unlikely they would have missed this.

Even if it was meant to be read as the way presented here, the identification could rest on more people than Jesus. It can even be split up to read:
"Man(kind) (is) appointed mortal sorrow. (But) the Blessed God shall come down and teach (that) his (man's) death shall bring suffering and comfort/rest."

In other words, Man must suffer, but God will teach them that in death there is both suffering and comfort. "Come down" could be interpreted as coming in voice/inspiration to the Prophets, at the shekinah in the Temple, etc. This would square well too.

I looked up the definitions in the Strong’s concordance, and this is how they define them:

Adam - Man
Seth - Appointed
Enosh - Man
Cainan - Possession
Mahalalel- Praise of God
Jared - Descent
Enoch - Dedicated
Methuselah - Man of the dart
Lamech - Powerful
Noah - Rest

you can look these up on www.BlueLetterBible.org

Here is a great example of the gospel being preached in the Law & Prophets(OT):

Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

 

[Der Alte]

I don't buy it. They are proper names and intended to be understood that way. At best they are transliterations for the Hebrew. Hebrew is generally meant to be understood in context, and the words are being taken out of context here. See the "alma" controversy to just how contextual the matter is.
I also find that the lack of NT or ECF commentary on this would imply that it is an interesting way of us to look back at the text, but the meaning is not accurate as being presented here.
The NT writers and founders of the faith would have been intimately familiar with the text and messianic prophesies, they have shown us many of them both in the New Testament and outside of it in other early writings. It seems incredibly unlikely they would have missed this.
Even if it was meant to be read as the way presented here, the identification could rest on more people than Jesus. It can even be split up to read:
"Man(kind) (is) appointed mortal sorrow. (But) the Blessed God shall come down and teach (that) his (man's) death shall bring suffering and comfort/rest."
In other words, Man must suffer, but God will teach them that in death there is both suffering and comfort. "Come down" could be interpreted as coming in voice/inspiration to the Prophets, at the shekinah in the Temple, etc. This would square well too.

As I said when I heard it on the radio I was very skeptical, I immediately went home pulled out my big green Strong's. This was a year or two before I acquired my very first Bible program, Online Bible. I looked up each name and they all check out.
Would first century Jews have immediately have understood the meaning expressed? Most of them did not recognize their own Messiah
As for, "his (man's) death shall bring suffering and comfort/rest." It should read "[Methuselah] His death Shall Bring (send forth)
[Lamech] to the Suffering wounded/stricken [Noah] comfort."
Please note that three of the names are defined in scripture.

Gen 5:2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "Adam/man". "Adam" is translated "man" 62 times.
Gen 4:25 Adam lay with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, "God has appointed me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him."
Gen 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands,
​

 

[d taylor]

I would say the gospel is basically this
And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. The place in the Scripture which he read was this:

“He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
And who will declare His generation?
For His life is taken from the earth.”

So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him.

 

[Der Alte]

I would say the gospel is basically this
And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. The place in the Scripture which he read was this:
“He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
And who will declare His generation?
For His life is taken from the earth.”
So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him.

I agree. I did not say all the gospel was in the OT. It would be kind of nice if you would address my OP.

 

[d taylor]

I agree. I did not say all the gospel was in the OT. It would be kind of nice if you would address my OP.

Well personally like we teach in The New Testament or should, straight from verses and not from basically hidden messages. I am just not sure this would have been used, but it could be but just do not see it myself

 

[Der Alte]

Well personally like we teach in The New Testament or should, straight from verses and not from basically hidden messages. I am just not sure this would have been used, but it could be but just do not see it myself

As I said when I first heard it I did not believe it. Have you checked the words in a lexicon to see if they do in fact have the meaning listed?

 

[d taylor]

As I said when I first heard it I did not believe it. Have you checked the words in a lexicon to see if they do in fact have the meaning listed?

It is not so much do they have the meaning, but how are these names listed are they one after another in order, where it is right there in the Tanakh . Or do you have to get one name from this verse and another name from this verse etc...

 

[Der Alte]

It is not so much do they have the meaning, but how are these names listed are they one after another in order, where it is right there in the Tanakh . Or do you have to get one name from this verse and another name from this verse etc...

Did you actually read my post #1? I listed the verses with the names in the exact order they occur in the Bible.
#0582 אנוש 'enowsh en-oshe' from 0605; TWOT - 136a; n m AV - man 520, certain 10, husbands 3, some 3, merchantmen 2, persons 2, misc 24; 564 1) man, mortal man, person, mankind
#07015 קינה qiynah kee-naw' from 06969; TWOT - 2018a; n f AV - lamentation 18; 18 1) lamentation, dirge, elegy
#04111 מהללאל Mahalal'el mah-hal-al-ale' from 04110 and 0410, Greek 3121 Malelehl;; n pr m AV - Mahalaleel 7; 7 Mahalaleel = "praise of God" 1) son of Cainan and the 4th in descent from Adam in the line of Seth
#03381 ירד yarad yaw-rad' a primitive root; TWOT - 909; v AV - (come, go, etc) down 340, descend 18, variant 2, fell 2, let 1, abundantly 1, down by 1, indeed 1, put off 1, light off 1, out 1, sank 1, subdued 1, take 1; 380 1) to go down, descend, decline, march down, sink down
#02596 חנכ chanak khaw-nak' a primitive root; TWOT- 693; v AV - dedicate 4, train up 1; 5 1) to train, dedicate, inaugurate
# 04191 מות muwth mooth a primitive root; TWOT - 1169; v AV - die 424, dead 130, slay 100, death 83, surely 50, kill 31, dead man 3, dead body 2, in no wise 2, misc 10; 835 1) to die, kill, have one executed
#07971 שלח shalach shaw-lakh' a primitive root; TWOT - 2394; v AV - send 566, go 73, (send, put,...) forth 54, send away 48, lay 14, send out 12, put 10, put away 7, cast out 7, stretch out 5, cast 5, set 5, put out 4, depart 4, soweth 3, loose 3, misc 22; 847
ל, preposition to, Brown-Driver-Briggs, Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1980, p. 510.
#04347 מכה makkah mak-kaw' or (masc.) מכה makkeh muk-keh' from 05221; TWOT - 1364d; n f p AV - wound 14, slaughter 14, plague 11, beaten 1, stripes 2, stroke 2, blow 1, smote 1, sores 1, wounded 1; 48
05146 נח Noach no’-akh the same as 05118, Greek 3575 נה; TWOT - 1323b; n pr m

 

[Der Alte]

...

I looked up the definitions in the Strong’s concordance, and this is how they define them:
Adam - Man
Seth - Appointed
Enosh - Man
Cainan - Possession
Mahalalel- Praise of God
Jared - Descent
Enoch - Dedicated
Methuselah - Man of the dart
Lamech - Powerful
Noah - Rest
you can look these up on www.BlueLetterBible.org
Here is a great example of the gospel being preached in the Law & Prophets(OT):
Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

The 100 years old Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions. Please see definitions from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon post #11 above. BDAG is one of, if not the, most highly accredited Greek lexicons available.

 

[Scott Husted]

As I said when I heard it on the radio I was very skeptical, I immediately went home pulled out my big green Strong's. This was a year or two before I acquired my very first Bible program, Online Bible. I looked up each name and they all check out.
Would first century Jews have immediately have understood the meaning expressed? Most of them did not recognize their own Messiah
As for, "his (man's) death shall bring suffering and comfort/rest." It should read "[Methuselah] His death Shall Bring (send forth)
[Lamech] to the Suffering wounded/stricken [Noah] comfort."
Please note that three of the names are defined in scripture.

Gen 5:2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "Adam/man". "Adam" is translated "man" 62 times.
Gen 4:25 Adam lay with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, "God has appointed me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him."
Gen 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands,
​

According to Jesus Nicodemus should have known about being born again and Abraham saw his day ... who was said to have looked for a city ... some I'm sure knew and others did not, and some knew enough to find out where to go so they could kill him.

 

[Der Alte]

***BUMP***

 

[Shrewd Manager]

This one I believe was another Chuck Missler discovery/ proposition. At worst, it's very close, and at best it's revelation. Personally, I like it.

But Michael Heiser is one who would disagree:
Allegorical Interpretation of the Names in Genesis 5 - Dr. Michael Heiser

 

[Der Alte]

This one I believe was another Chuck Missler discovery/ proposition. At worst, it's very close, and at best it's revelation. Personally, I like it.
But Michael Heiser is one who would disagree:
Allegorical Interpretation of the Names in Genesis 5 - Dr. Michael Heiser

Did a quick skim of the Heiser article. Half baked attempt to discredit Chuck Missler.
Here for example.

"Seth
Missler says that Seth’s name means “appointed.” This is a possibility, though Hebrew and Semitics scholars disagree. Wenham’s comment is representative:
Though Eve's explanation of Seth's name suggests it is derived from the verb shiyt/siyt (to place, put) there may be no etymological connection, simply paronomasia.[play on words]
If Seth does derive from this Hebrew verb, since the term refers to an object (a person) it would actually be better translated “substitute,” not “appointed” as Missler suggests.​

Here is how "Seth" is translated in the Jewish Publication Society English translation of the OT.

Gen 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bore a son, and called his name Seth: 'for God hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel; for Cain slew him.' ​