The Good Lord made them all

[BobRyan]

Is there a theological issue here? Yes, in a way there is, what is the meaning of animal intelligence, emotion, and suffering in the world created by God?

1. "A world created by God" -- not "created by a bacteria" - or a combination of rock , dust , gas , sunlight given enough time and chance.
2. So then it has purpose, design etc and it reveals the hand, mind, character of the one that made it.
3. Romans 8 says that suffering entered the perfect sinless, painless creation when mankind sinned. So it is a reminder that this thing is broken by the choice of humans to select Satan's suggestions and ignore God's warning.

4. Yet the fact that we still exist, the fact that "in that very day" they did not instantly die - also shows the love of God, His mercy and grace and the Gospel solution He engaged at that very moment to spare humanity.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

1. "A world created by God" -- not "created by a bacteria" - or a combination of rock , dust , gas , sunlight given enough time and chance.
2. So then it has purpose, design etc and it reveals the hand, mind, character of the one that made it.
3. Romans 8 says that suffering entered the perfect sinless, painless creation when mankind sinned. So it is a reminder that this thing is broken by the choice of humans to select Satan's suggestions and ignore God's warning.

4. Yet the fact that we still exist, the fact that "in that very day" they did not instantly die - also shows the love of God, His mercy and grace and the Gospel solution He engaged at that very moment to spare humanity.

Where, exactly, in Romans 8, is this teaching, "that suffering entered the perfect sinless, painless creation when mankind sinned. So it is a reminder that this thing is broken by the choice of humans to select Satan's suggestions and ignore God's warning."

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 8:
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the eagerly awaiting creation waits for the revealing of the sons and daughters of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only that, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, through perseverance we wait eagerly for it. NASB


21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition​

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Rom 8:
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the eagerly awaiting creation waits for the revealing of the sons and daughters of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only that, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, through perseverance we wait eagerly for it. NASB


21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition​

Thank you for using a Catholic edition bible, it was thoughtful of you.

I see bondage, slavery, decay mentioned in Romans 8, I saw it before, and you've used red text and under line and bold to add emphasis to the words in the quote. Yet, I cannot see anything like your claim from before - "that suffering entered the perfect sinless, painless creation when mankind sinned. So it is a reminder that this thing is broken by the choice of humans to select Satan's suggestions and ignore God's warning." So while it is true that creation groans and suffers it is suffering that is akin to the pains of childbirth and childbirth carries hope for new life and something better with it.

 

[BobRyan]

Thank you for using a Catholic edition bible, it was thoughtful of you.

I see bondage, slavery, decay mentioned in Romans 8, I saw it before, and you've used red text and under line and bold to add emphasis to the words in the quote. Yet, I cannot see anything like your claim from before

Well "decay, corruption and death" may not seem like "suffering" to some, but a lot of folks do view it that way.

quoting BobRyan: - "that suffering entered the perfect sinless, painless creation when mankind sinned. So it is a reminder that this thing is broken by the choice of humans to select Satan's suggestions and ignore God's warning."

you have free will and can choose not to see it that way

So while it is true that creation groans and suffers

Romans 8 does not say it groans and suffers -- decay and corruption - because God made it that way for Adam in the garden - but rather because of the fall of humanity. Sin brings death - Romans 5 (all died for all sinned)

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

@BobRyan, what sin do you think that the magpie, in the photo included in the original post, committed?

 

[Clare73]

Oh no, quite the contrary, saint Paul's writing is relevant to all manner of things. I think you've not explained anything and hence the posts you've written are not relevant.

See post #17.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

See post #17.

see post #18

 

[Clare73]

see post #18

Sorry to hear you think what Paul said in Ro 8:19-23 (post #17) is irrelevant.

 

[jacks]

Is there a theological issue here? Yes, in a way there is, what is the meaning of animal intelligence, emotion, and suffering in the world created by God?

Beautiful picture! Thanks for posting. As far as your question, I don't know why living things have to suffer, the best we can do is try not to add to it.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Sorry to hear you think what Paul said in Ro 8:19-23 (post #17) is irrelevant.

See post #20.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Beautiful picture! Thanks for posting. As far as your question, I don't know why living things have to suffer, the best we can do is try not to add to it.

Amen.
They are lovely critters.

 

[Diamond7]

I wondered what she was thinking about as she watched.

The birds think of me as the gardener that takes care of the plants for them to eat. One bird was squeaking at me one day. It took me a while to figure out he wanted me to give him some food.