The good book?

Sectio Aurea · Jun 4, 2013

AlexBP said:
I challenged you to provide links to the text of the legislation which specifically says that Christians can do things in Australia that no one else can do. You failed to do so.

What I asserted is true and correct regardless of what you want to believe. I find it rather amusing that you accept extraordinary claims and lies without evidence yet still disregard my ordinary and truthful claims.
I have provided links to websites that provide information on the employment discrimination, tax exception and free reign privileges in public schools for christian groups in Australia to support my assertions. I think you are failing to be a reasonable person.

Sectio Aurea · Jun 5, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
I think you know that murder by definition is the WRONGFUL taking of life. Wrongful is synonymous with sinful. God has never commanded anyone to be murdered.

(Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

1)If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Sectio Aurea · Jun 5, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
I think you know that murder by definition is the WRONGFUL taking of life. Wrongful is synonymous with sinful. God has never commanded anyone to be murdered.

(Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NIV)

20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.

quatona · Jun 5, 2013

Sectio Aurea said:
(Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NIV)

20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young womans virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her fathers house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her fathers house. You must purge the evil from among you.

You could bring examples by the hundreds, but that doesn´t address Eli´s argument - which essentially is:

P1. Murder is defined as "wrongful/sinless killing".
P2. God is defined as "holy/perfect/flawless/sinless/righteous".
C. It´s logically impossible that anything God does is wrongful or sinful.

Sectio Aurea · Jun 5, 2013

quatona said:
You could bring examples by the hundreds, but that doesn´t address Eli´s argument - which essentially is:

P1. Murder is defined as "wrongful/sinless killing".
P2. God is defined as "holy/perfect/flawless/sinless/righteous".
C. It´s logically impossible that anything God does is wrongful or sinful.

I was addressing Eli's assertion that his god doesn't command murder.

quatona · Jun 5, 2013

Sectio Aurea said:
I was addressing Eli's assertion that his god doesn't command murder.

And I explained to you why it wasn´t addressing his actual argument.

Sectio Aurea · Jun 5, 2013

quatona said:
And I explained to you why it wasn´t addressing his actual argument.

I'm also trying to understand how Eli is reconciling his conclusion with the scripture that I am quoting.

AlexBP · Jun 6, 2013

Sectio Aurea said:
I have provided links to websites that provide information on the employment discrimination, tax exception and free reign privileges in public schools for christian groups in Australia to support my assertions. I think you are failing to be a reasonable person.

No you haven't. If you actually read the articles that you linked to, you'll see that they say that all religious institutions have the same rights in employment decisions; there's no mention of Christians having any rights that others don't have. So the articles you linked to say the exact opposite of what you claim they say. Maybe next time you should read and think a bit before you brag about being truthful and accuse me of lying.

In any case, the hiring decisions of a private employer obviously shouldn't be any of the government's business. While you initially claimed that you were upset because Christians are trying to impose their will on others, now it seems that the truth is the opposite. You're trying to impose your will on Christians in issues such as employment and you're upset because Christians are standing up for freedom.

pjnlsn · Jun 6, 2013

quatona said:
And I explained to you why it wasn´t addressing his actual argument.

Well his argument isn't anything. I mean, he's just presented this idea of God, and then suddenly murder isn't wrong when God does it.....because he's said so.

It doesn't really mean anything, being tautological, he's already said murder is wrong, so that's basically it, even though he doesn't want to think about that in relation to the entity he hopes exists.

super animator · Jun 6, 2013

You know pjnlsn is a good idea to change the faith icon to something less misleading. Just saying.

Sectio Aurea · Jun 7, 2013

AlexBP said:
No you haven't.

Yes I have.

AlexBP said:
If you actually read the articles that you linked to, you'll see that they say that all religious institutions have the same rights in employment decisions; there's no mention of Christians having any rights that others don't have.

I think your confusion originates from my flippant use of the word's "everybody else".

When I said "everybody else" , I wasn't referring to other faiths, I was referring to people of no religion, the second largest group of people in Australia after the Catholics, in fact five of eight states and territories, no religion provides the largest group. While Christianity is on a steady decline in Australia, Atheism and Hinduism are presently growing exponentially.

Australians Lose Their Faith - Dispatch - WSJ

Godless overtake Anglicans, as Hinduism doubles

If you actually read the articles that I linked to, you will see that Christian groups do indeed have privileges.

For example-

Can I deny gay people employment? NO

Can I be exempted from paying tax? NO

Can I place a chaplain into a state school? NO

Do I want to? NO

Can Christian groups? YES

Can other faith groups? Yes, but with great difficulty, if at all.

AlexBP said:
So the articles you linked to say the exact opposite of what you claim they say.

The articles I linked to support my assertion's adequately.

AlexBP said:
Maybe next time you should read and think a bit before you brag about being truthful and accuse me of lying.

Err..maybe next time you should read and think a bit before you brag about being truthful and accuse me of lying.

AlexBP said:
In any case, the hiring decisions of a private employer obviously shouldn't be any of the government's business.

If the employer breaches basic human rights it is the governments business, but here we have the government breaching human rights.

AlexBP said:
While you initially claimed that you were upset because Christians are trying to impose their will on others, now it seems that the truth is the opposite.

How would you feel about Islamic Preachers having free access to your children at school? How would you feel about an atheist lead government paying them with your money? I never claimed I was upset, but when my children come home from school with bibles handed to them by some government paid chaplain, after I checked the no religious instruction box on their enrolment form, I think I have the right to be upset don't you?

AlexBP said:
You're trying to impose your will on Christians in issues such as employment and you're upset because Christians are standing up for freedom.

That couldn't be further from the truth. I'm not an anti-theist. All I want is fairness and equality for all, I will support Christian groups (or any other faith or non-faith group) that are being discriminated against in a heartbeat, and I also regularly donate to both Christian and Secular charities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K4KCoQLqho

quatona · Jun 7, 2013

pjnlsn said:
Well his argument isn't anything.

Yes, his reasoning is frighteningly poor. That´s why it shouldn´t be much of a problem to tackle it. (Or simply ignore it because it isn´t even worth a second thought)

I mean, he's just presented this idea of God, and then suddenly murder isn't wrong when God does it.....because he's said so.
It doesn't really mean anything, being tautological, he's already said murder is wrong, so that's basically it, even though he doesn't want to think about that in relation to the entity he hopes exists.

His argument has plenty of flaws and, yes, it´s basically semantics trickery . However, if you want to address it you need to pay attention what it actually is. E.g. he doesn´t say that "murder isn´t wrong when God does it", he say that when God does it it can´t be murder.
Arguing against a strawman just helps him obsfucating things even more.

Sectio Aurea · Jun 7, 2013

quatona said:
Yes, his reasoning is frighteningly poor. That´s why it shouldn´t be much of a problem to tackle it. (Or simply ignore it because it isn´t even worth a second thought)

His argument has plenty of flaws and, yes, it´s basically semantics trickery . However, if you want to address it you need to pay attention what it actually is. E.g. he doesn´t say that "murder isn´t wrong when God does it", he say that when God does it it can´t be murder.
Arguing against a strawman just helps him obsfucating things even more.

You have point quatona, we don't really want him obsfucating things even more do we.

Sectio Aurea · Jun 8, 2013

Gottservant said:
Wisdom.

He who has not read Proverbs, is far less the wise for it than if he had.

I have to agree, Proverbs does have some good scripture.

Here are just a few of my own favourites. (KJV)

22:9 He that hath a bountiful eye shall be blessed; for he giveth of his bread to the poor.

18:15 The heart of the prudent getteth knowledge; and the ear of the wise seeketh knowledge.

16:22 Understanding is a wellspring of life unto him that hath it: but the instruction of fools is folly.

15:21 Folly is joy to him that is destitute of wisdom: but a man of understanding walketh uprightly.

15:13 A merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance: but by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken.

15:14 The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness.

14:5 A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies.

13:16 Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly.

13:12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.

12:25 Heaviness in the heart of man maketh it stoop: but a good word maketh it glad.

13:7 There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches.

12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise. (12:15) "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise."

12:16 A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame.

12:17 He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit. (12:17) "He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit."

12:18 There is that speaketh like the piercings of a sword: but the tongue of the wise is health.

12:19 The lip of truth shall be established for ever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment. (12:19) "The lip of truth shall be established for ever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment."

12:20 Deceit is in the heart of them that imagine evil: but to the counsellors of peace is joy.

17:22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

11:17 The merciful man doeth good to his own soul: but he that is cruel troubleth his own flesh.

10:14 Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is near destruction.

11:29 He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool shall be servant to the wise of heart.

10:21 The lips of the righteous feed many: but fools die for want of wisdom.

26:21 As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to kindle strife.

10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

11:2 When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.

Hovind · Jun 11, 2013

The Skeptic's Annotated Bible is quite good.

Sectio Aurea · Jun 11, 2013

Hovind said:
The Skeptic's Annotated Bible is quite good.

In my opinion the Skeptics Annotated Qur'an is even better.
Only problem is, most of the Islamic forums do not permit any debating of the Qur'an.

Hovind · Jun 11, 2013

Sectio Aurea said:
In my opinion the Skeptics Annotated Qur'an is even better.
Only problem is, most of the Islamic forums do not permit any debating of the Qur'an.

Yup, and that's the same as forfeiting the debate. People just don't want to hear evidence against their religion.

Sectio Aurea · Jun 13, 2013

Hovind said:
Yup, and that's the same as forfeiting the debate. People just don't want to hear evidence against their religion.

Well technically speaking you cant forfeit a debate you dont start. From my experience Muslims tend to be far more serious about defending their religion. However I have found the odd female muslim who is happy to discuss/debate the Qu'ran or Islam discreetly.
I get the impression the more insecure one is of their religion, the more defensive their behaviour.

JGL53 · Jun 13, 2013

Sectio Aurea said:
....I get the impression the more insecure one is of their religion, the more defensive their behaviour.

Insecure - and defensive? I don't think such was the basis of the 19 devout muslims who flew the planes into the buildings on 9/11/01, murdering about three thousand innocent people.

I think the better descriptive word would be "crazed".

AlexBP · Jun 13, 2013

Sectio Aurea said:
I think your confusion originates from my flippant use of the word's "everybody else".

When I said "everybody else" , I wasn't referring to other faiths,

If one refers to Christians and "everybody else", obviously "everybody else" includes people of other faiths: Jews, Muslims, etc... It seems that you said one thing when you actually meant something utterly different. But no harm done. We're now in agreement that Christians do not actually have any legal exemptions that non-Christians don't have. Instead, all religious groups are legally treated the same.

If you actually read the articles that I linked to, you will see that Christian groups do indeed have privileges.

For example-

Can I deny gay people employment? NO

Can I be exempted from paying tax? NO

Can I place a chaplain into a state school? NO

Do I want to? NO

Can Christian groups? YES

Can other faith groups? Yes, but with great difficulty, if at all.

I agree that Australia's current laws regarding employment are wrong. If you're a private employer, you should be allowed to hire who you want and not hire who you don't want. If you lobby to change that law, you'll have my blessing.

As for tax laws, I'd need to have some specifics about what you're talking about. Here in the USA, all charities and non-profit groups are under the same tax laws, regardless of whether or not they are religious. This gets many atheists upset. They believe that churches should be forced to pay taxes while other non-profit groups should not have to, but they haven't been able to get their demands made into law.

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