The god who (once again) wasn't there: Virginia Tech

[loudatheist101]

Ok, Virginia Tech. Now just where was our all loving, all powerful, and all knowing Creator during this? Well, if the God you all know and love truely existed, this is how He would have handled this recent massicare. (And all others)

1. He would *know* about this horrific event before it even occured, as He is all knowing.

2. He would *love* everyone involved so much, He would not want to end their beautiful short lives so soon. As God is all knowing.

3. He would be *powerful* enough to stop this event from happening. He would have the power to help the killer with his mental problems, before the guy goes and kill 32 of God's children, and himself. As God is all powerful.

Now, none of these things happened, during *any* massicare. It's almost as if there is no god at all...and maybe we need to realize that.

 

[ExistencePrecedesEssence]

The free-will allowed by god.

 

[m9lc]

Yes, but the beauty of Christianity is that you can say "It is God's will and we humans can't understand it" to any example showing that God never seems to do anything at all, so it's impossible to point out any flaw in God's actions. Isn't religion great?

 

[loudatheist101]

Yes, but the beauty of Christianity is that you can say "It is God's will and we humans can't understand it" to any example showing that God never seems to do anything at all, so it's impossible to point out any flaw in God's actions. Isn't religion great?

Yeah no kidding. You hear people praise God and shout "God is awsome!" or "He really loves me!" when they find their car keys however, if something like VT happens, "Oh, God gave us free will and he allows his children to kill eachother, no one can understand God"

Hmm, sounds like it's all chance to me and that there is no god!

 

[TheReasoner]

Had God prevented these attacks, then what would that say about our free will? It would make a mockery of it.
We have free will. What we choose to do with that free will defines us. If we choose to do evil, it is imperative that we be allowed to do so by God. If we were only allowed to do good, then we would be no more than animated blobs of carbon and water (mostly). We would be slaves with no initiative, no free thought and no freedom to do what we want. And while a world without evil and bad sure seems good - if such a world entails that we be robbed of our freedom of choice, then that is in itself evil. Or at least not good.
Good is only good if it is done out of a person's own free will. If someone is forced to do good, then we could debate wether that IS good or not.
I think we can all appretiate that forced love is not love. And that if a person with free will is forced to 'love', then that force would only create hatred.

I feel your argument is flawed mainly because of this free will argument.
But there is more to it than that. Despite our free will, we have our Lord God to whom we can turn when things go tough. If we seek Him of our own free will, He does not turn us back.
I realize that as an atheist you probably have little conception of this - no offense - it being religious and all. Oh I know. You think it is stupid and ignorant of someone to believe in an entity you can neither see nor prove. And I do not think I can explain it to you. Logically however, your argument is not valid simply because it disregards free will.

 

[ehehe]

The absence of love doesn't imply hatred. Nobody would be forced to love if they were unable to hate.

I really don't like arguments centered on free will. I mean, if you can prove that free will even exists, then please do. But aside from that, the arguments are wishy-washy and based on a lot of loaded language about "animated blobs of carbon" and so forth. I don't see why God would really care if he is omnipotent anyway. Unless you want to go with a cop-out response like "he cares PERFECTLY because he notices the difference PERFECTLY" or whatever.

 

[TheReasoner]

The absence of love doesn't imply hatred. Nobody would be forced to love if they were unable to hate.

I really don't like arguments centered on free will. I mean, if you can prove that free will even exists, then please do. But aside from that, the arguments are wishy-washy and based on a lot of loaded language about "animated blobs of carbon" and so forth. I don't see why God would really care if he is omnipotent anyway. Unless you want to go with a cop-out response like "he cares PERFECTLY because he notices the difference PERFECTLY" or whatever.

but if they were unable to choose hatred, would they have free will?

 

[ehehe]

but if they were unable to choose hatred, would they have free will?

I am unable to turn into a 50 foot python. I am physically unable to do so. Do I have free will?

 

[TheReasoner]

I am unable to turn into a 50 foot python. I am physically unable to do so. Do I have free will?

having free will does not enable you to break the laws of physics with pure mind power.

 

[ehehe]

having free will does not enable you to break the laws of physics with pure mind power.

And I suppose you think that there is a reason why having free will would require me to surpass any limitations I might have that prevent me from feeling hatred?

 

[elman]

Ok, Virginia Tech. Now just where was our all loving, all powerful, and all knowing Creator during this? Well, if the God you all know and love truely existed, this is how He would have handled this recent massicare. (And all others)

1. He would *know* about this horrific event before it even occured, as He is all knowing.

2. He would *love* everyone involved so much, He would not want to end their beautiful short lives so soon. As God is all knowing.

3. He would be *powerful* enough to stop this event from happening. He would have the power to help the killer with his mental problems, before the guy goes and kill 32 of God's children, and himself. As God is all powerful.

Now, none of these things happened, during *any* massicare. It's almost as if there is no god at all...and maybe we need to realize that.

Yes God could have made a world full of robots. But He did not. He made a world of beings capable of loving each other and this means also capable of hurting each other. Maybe you need to realize the Creator of this world is wiser than you and knows what is needed to achieve the greater good, beings who live forever with Him in a loving relationship without pain and suffering.

 

[elman]

The absence of love doesn't imply hatred. Nobody would be forced to love if they were unable to hate.

I really don't like arguments centered on free will. I mean, if you can prove that free will even exists, then please do. But aside from that, the arguments are wishy-washy and based on a lot of loaded language about "animated blobs of carbon" and so forth. I don't see why God would really care if he is omnipotent anyway. Unless you want to go with a cop-out response like "he cares PERFECTLY because he notices the difference PERFECTLY" or whatever.

If you are unable to not love, then you are not able to chose love over non love or hate. Love is always a choice or it is not love. I really don't like people using their free will to say it does not exist and asking for proof of its existence.

 

[elman]

I am unable to turn into a 50 foot python. I am physically unable to do so. Do I have free will?

So you really thought that when we said we have free will we were saying we could turn into a 50 foot python at will. Is that what you thought?

 

[elman]

And I suppose you think that there is a reason why having free will would require me to surpass any limitations I might have that prevent me from feeling hatred?

It is not about feelings and emotions. It is the ability to act in a loving way or in a harmful way.

 

[m9lc]

Christians say that no one does wrong or feels hatred in Heaven, right? (If anyone did wrong, then there would be pain in Heaven, which there isn't.) That being the case, according to you all, we have no free will in Heaven, do we? So that makes the "free will" argument kinda moot.

 

[FrenzyforChrist]

Christians say that no one does wrong or feels hatred in Heaven, right? (If anyone did wrong, then there would be pain in Heaven, which there isn't.) That being the case, according to you all, we have no free will in Heaven, do we? So that makes the "free will" argument kinda moot.

Ok, Virginia Tech. Now just where was our all loving, all powerful, and all knowing Creator during this? Well, if the God you all know and love truely existed, this is how He would have handled this recent massicare. (And all others)

1. He would *know* about this horrific event before it even occured, as He is all knowing.

2. He would *love* everyone involved so much, He would not want to end their beautiful short lives so soon. As God is all knowing.

3. He would be *powerful* enough to stop this event from happening. He would have the power to help the killer with his mental problems, before the guy goes and kill 32 of God's children, and himself. As God is all powerful.

Now, none of these things happened, during *any* massicare. It's almost as if there is no god at all...and maybe we need to realize that.

You both are missing the whole poin of God and Heven. Yes God new this event could happen. The pesron who did it though had a choice not to do it. Youre faced with chocies every day. Have you ever stopped and taken time to cosinder the actions of a particular choice you make? Probally not all of them but some you may have. A was said erlier God gave us free will. The reseon it is not moot is becuse those people in heven are thoes who chose to love christ. They chose to do what is right or try to do waht is right. God wants us to love him and follow him on are own accord. Not just becuse we see his mircles. Im Summury Youre leaving out free will, and thoes in heven choes to love and do good.

 

[m9lc]

You both are missing the whole poin of God and Heven. Yes God new this event could happen. The pesron who did it though had a choice not to do it. Youre faced with chocies every day. Have you ever stopped and taken time to cosinder the actions of a particular choice you make? Probally not all of them but some you may have. A was said erlier God gave us free will. The reseon it is not moot is becuse those people in heven are thoes who chose to love christ. They chose to do what is right or try to do waht is right. God wants us to love him and follow him on are own accord. Not just becuse we see his mircles.

How does seeing miracles reduce your free will? Because it makes it obvious that you should believe? How does making something obvious take away your free will?

Miracles take away your free will no more than having eyes takes away your free will to jump off a bridge.

Im Summury Youre leaving out free will, and thoes in heven choes to love and do good.

But Christians on Earth do evil, too. If they choose to do evil on Earth, but don't when they're in Heaven, they've obviously lost their free will.

 

[loudatheist101]

You both are missing the whole poin of God and Heven. Yes God new this event could happen. The pesron who did it though had a choice not to do it. Youre faced with chocies every day. Have you ever stopped and taken time to cosinder the actions of a particular choice you make? Probally not all of them but some you may have. A was said erlier God gave us free will. The reseon it is not moot is becuse those people in heven are thoes who chose to love christ. They chose to do what is right or try to do waht is right. God wants us to love him and follow him on are own accord. Not just becuse we see his mircles. Im Summury Youre leaving out free will, and thoes in heven choes to love and do good.

What the heck is having free will on earth if you do not get it for enternity in Heaven? Thpse 32 other people killed had no free wil. It was not their choice to die.

What about natural disastors? Do hurricanes have the choice too?

Have you ever once wondered if maybe free will is just an excuse to questions like the one I asked?

 

[Defcon]

Ok, Virginia Tech. Now just where was our all loving, all powerful, and all knowing Creator during this? Well, if the God you all know and love truely existed, this is how He would have handled this recent massicare. (And all others)

1. He would *know* about this horrific event before it even occured, as He is all knowing.

2. He would *love* everyone involved so much, He would not want to end their beautiful short lives so soon. As God is all knowing.

3. He would be *powerful* enough to stop this event from happening. He would have the power to help the killer with his mental problems, before the guy goes and kill 32 of God's children, and himself. As God is all powerful.

Now, none of these things happened, during *any* massicare. It's almost as if there is no god at all...and maybe we need to realize that.

By what basis or standard are you able to determine what is horrific? You are assuming that everyone views this event as 'wrong' or 'horrific'. Based on what? Please fill us in, from an atheistic standpoint, how do we determine what is right and wrong?

 

[loudatheist101]

By what basis or standard are you able to determine what is horrific? You are assuming that everyone views this event as 'wrong' or 'horrific'. Based on what? Please fill us in, from an atheistic standpoint, how do we determine what is right and wrong?

Read the Bible.