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The Global Warming Debate

DaveS

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The article does not explain the process that you claim exists. If you've read it, paraphrase.

It does as the graphs show the correlations between irradiance and temp - it is quite difficult to paraphrase graphs!

Lots of pretty pictures

Three graphs?? -shrug-

Lots of pretty pictures, but I have questions about the science aspect in this one. Theres nothing thats just out and out wrong, but some of it is....embellished. IE: The part where it states that the ocean is a buffer for CO2 because of it's "large solubility in water". CO2 is indeed soluble in water, but the actual solubility rate of CO2 is 1.45 kg/m³. Thats good, but not as massive as the article makes it sound. The entire article makes use of very dramatic and complicated language to say very simple concepts.

1.45kgm-3 is actually pretty massive if you consider the actual volume of the oceans is considered to be 1.37 × 109 km3. I can't be bothered to do all the maths but that is a sizeable proportion.

The Tunguska Blast is the best they can come up with? We've been hit by asteroids for millions of years and theres never seemed to have been a problem.

Wasn't an asteroid the reason the Dinosaur's met a sticky end 65 million years ago? I may also point out that what we are experiencing is hardly a 'problem' yet is it? The mean global temperature has actually been decreasing over the last 2 years...

I may also point out the that effect super-massive volcanoes has on the environment. If you take one comparitively recent eruption at Krakatoa. This occured in 1883 and ejected about 25 million cubic kilometres of ash etc. into the atmosphere. However, at this time and for a time after the mean global temperature actually continued to plummet to a trough.

"The cause is heat from the earth's core. Heat from the earth's core is what keeps lakes from freezing solid after ice forms on the surface. The amount of heat from the earth's core appears to be increasing and heating the oceans, which is the cause of ice ages. The primary evidence is the exact cycling of ice ages. " Im sorry but that is plain ridiculous. If thier only evidence is the cycling of the ice ages, then that is a less than credible theory.

How so?

This guy's prediction flies in the face of every single climatological model and study since we first started looking at global warming. I also notice they dont actually SHOW any of this evidence, just say that its there.

Again, how so? CO2 and temp clearly don't mix so isn't it time to be looking for other explanations? I'm also wondering if you looked down the 'part links' as they seem to be fairly packed with statistics...

A negligible ammount and one that is far dominated by the ammount of O2 that plants produce

Hardly, in a mature forest the amount of CO2 produced during respiration will easily equal (if not exceed) the volume taken in during photosythesis. It may still be "negligible" when compared to oxygen but isn't around 0.0365% of the atmosphere generally considered a "negligible" value anyway?

Do you have any statistics for the ammount of CO2 produced by this process or that it's sped up by excess heat?

I *think* there are equations to calculate amounts produced but they are complex due to so many other factors.
As far as heat speeding up photosynthesis all you need do is look in almost any biology textbook for the 'law of limiting factors'. This law states that photosynthesis can be limited by temperature, CO2 levels and light intensity and can be demonstrated very easily.

Yes but the processes which you allege create this CO2 bloom work much slower than that. Im not disputing that solar radiation cant go active that fast, but the response to that radiation would be far slower than it is alleged to be

Cosmics rays move at the speed of light - as soon as they can cause a change they will. This can be seen by the fact that global temperature never goes 'flat'; it is constantly fluctuating.

A few thousand years is pretty fast when you're talking about a planet.

But we are talking about climate change which can clearly quickly occur over less than 30 years (as we have seen).
 
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Steezie

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It does as the graphs show the correlations between irradiance and temp - it is quite difficult to paraphrase graphs!
Ok, you are either ignoring what I'm saying or not getting it. YES the graph shows a correlation but what it DOES NOT explain is EXACTLY HOW EXCESS HEAT TRANSLATES INTO MORE CO2.

1.45kgm-3 is actually pretty massive if you consider the actual volume of the oceans is considered to be 1.37 × 109 km3. I can't be bothered to do all the maths but that is a sizeable proportion.
....you cant be serious. There are so many things wrong with that statement that my head hurts to look at it.

Wasn't an asteroid the reason the Dinosaur's met a sticky end 65 million years ago? I may also point out that what we are experiencing is hardly a 'problem' yet is it? The mean global temperature has actually been decreasing over the last 2 years...
I meant with CO2. Can you demonstrate that after a serious asteroid hit that there is a change in CO2 levels?

I may also point out the that effect super-massive volcanoes has on the environment. If you take one comparitively recent eruption at Krakatoa. This occured in 1883 and ejected about 25 million cubic kilometres of ash etc. into the atmosphere. However, at this time and for a time after the mean global temperature actually continued to plummet to a trough.
And I suppose you have evidence to demonstrate that this continues to disrupt the atmosphere to this day?

Because if the Earth's core were heating up, about a million other things would be going wrong BEFORE we noticed global warming.

Hardly, in a mature forest the amount of CO2 produced during respiration will easily equal (if not exceed) the volume taken in during photosythesis.
If that were true, we wouldnt be here today. And I suppose you can come up with statistics to support this.

It may still be "negligible" when compared to oxygen but isn't around 0.0365% of the atmosphere generally considered a "negligible" value anyway?
0.0365% of the sum total of the atmosphere of the Earth is still an enormous ammount of gas.

I *think* there are equations to calculate amounts produced but they are complex due to so many other factors.
Among them being non-existant

As far as heat speeding up photosynthesis all you need do is look in almost any biology textbook for the 'law of limiting factors'. This law states that photosynthesis can be limited by temperature, CO2 levels and light intensity and can be demonstrated very easily.
.....The law of limiting factors states that certain factors can limit the growth, development, or spread of certain organisms. How on earth does that tie into heat producing more CO2?

Cosmics rays move at the speed of light - as soon as they can cause a change they will. This can be seen by the fact that global temperature never goes 'flat'; it is constantly fluctuating.
Ok, again, ain't listenin' or ain't gettin'. The cosmic rays may be present however biological reaction to them is not instant. Its like pulling the pin of a grenade, you may have pulled the pin but the fuse still needs to burn BEFORE you get results. If a grenade worked by giving you results the second you pull the pin, it wouldnt be much use.

But we are talking about climate change which can clearly quickly occur over less than 30 years (as we have seen).
In very dramatic and very rare circumstances, and since you are claiming that this is a natural warming trend....
 
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DaveS

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Ok, you are either ignoring what I'm saying or not getting it. YES the graph shows a correlation but what it DOES NOT explain is EXACTLY HOW EXCESS HEAT TRANSLATES INTO MORE CO2.

But that is not really the point of all these studies --- the point is that they are showing that CO2 levels actually has a negligible effect on global temperature. As far as why CO2 rises with/after temp change as I have said no formal study has yet taken place and so many scientists are most probably unwilling to put down their educated guesses before the facts are determined. It is quite difficult to get funding for an idea that contradicts such large organisations as the IPCC.

....you cant be serious. There are so many things wrong with that statement that my head hurts to look at it.

What exactly? You stated the average absorption, I found the estimated global volume and from that it is quite easy to deduce that CO2 is absorbed in the billions. What exactly is wrong with that??

I meant with CO2. Can you demonstrate that after a serious asteroid hit that there is a change in CO2 levels?

Well as CO2 is negligible in an asteroid impact unless in completely gigantic proportions e.g. Venus it doesn't really matter.
However, the below graph shows a small spike in CO2 levels at the end of the Cretaceous period.
http://static.flickr.com/50/112747981_6990ff2b33_o.jpg

And I suppose you have evidence to demonstrate that this continues to disrupt the atmosphere to this day?

No, my point was that it didn't effect the atmosphere or global temperatures even though the CO2 released was in fairly large volume.

Because if the Earth's core were heating up, about a million other things would be going wrong BEFORE we noticed global warming

Such as increased earthquakes, more volcanic eruptions, changes in magnetic pole position and increased tectonic activity before and during warming?

If that were true, we wouldnt be here today. And I suppose you can come up with statistics to support this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_sink#Forests

0.0365% of the sum total of the atmosphere of the Earth is still an enormous ammount of gas.

It may be a large amount of gas but it is still relatively small.

.....The law of limiting factors states that certain factors can limit the growth, development, or spread of certain organisms. How on earth does that tie into heat producing more CO2?

Because heat is one of them!

Ok, again, ain't listenin' or ain't gettin'. The cosmic rays may be present however biological reaction to them is not instant. Its like pulling the pin of a grenade, you may have pulled the pin but the fuse still needs to burn BEFORE you get results. If a grenade worked by giving you results the second you pull the pin, it wouldnt be much use.

The particularly interesting section of the cosmic rays, the muons does spark cloud seeding pretty much as soon as it enters the atmosphere as it produces a pretty high and exponential charge when reacting with particles in the air. This means that the change in temp. could only be as long as it takes for a cloud to form which is comparitively not long at all; I'm not saying that the whole thing is like a light switch but it is still a pretty quick process.

In very dramatic and very rare circumstances, and since you are claiming that this is a natural warming trend....

Changes in solar activity can occur quickly as I have said before. We maybe on a natural warming trend now but that doesn't stop anomalies such as markable warming over a short time from occuring.
 
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Steezie

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But that is not really the point of all these studies
It should be. All you have is half an explanation and in science, thats not good enough.

the point is that they are showing that CO2 levels actually has a negligible effect on global temperature.
And I can find probably twice that number that state the exact opposite

As far as why CO2 rises with/after temp change as I have said no formal study has yet taken place and so many scientists are most probably unwilling to put down their educated guesses before the facts are determined. It is quite difficult to get funding for an idea that contradicts such large organisations as the IPCC.
There havent been any studies on it for the same reason that there havent been any studies to determine if the Earth is flat. Because the idea is so half-baked and un-supported that its not accepted as valid.

What exactly? You stated the average absorption, I found the estimated global volume and from that it is quite easy to deduce that CO2 is absorbed in the billions. What exactly is wrong with that??
Because its not the water itself that absorbs the CO2, its the microscopic life-forms in the water that actually absorb the CO2. Yes it does disperse in the water but the water itself does not absorb it.

However, the below graph shows a small spike in CO2 levels at the end of the Cretaceous period.
http://static.flickr.com/50/112747981_6990ff2b33_o.jpg
I actually see a pretty steady downward trend all through the Cretaceous period.

No, my point was that it didn't effect the atmosphere or global temperatures even though the CO2 released was in fairly large volume.
It DID effect the atmosphere, but not through CO2. Enormous volumes of ash and dust were thrown into the air and sulfur dioxide gas was throw into the clouds, acting like a mirror and reflecting back solar radiation. Global temperatures fell by several degrees in the several years after Krakatoa.

Such as increased earthquakes, more volcanic eruptions, changes in magnetic pole position and increased tectonic activity before and during warming?
We would see a DRAMATIC surge in volcanic activity, as in FAR more than we have now.

Im curious, what exactly, in your opinion, is causing the core of the Earth to heat up.

From the article-

"Through photosynthesis, plants absorb carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, store the carbon in sugars, starch and cellulose, and release the oxygen into the atmosphere"

"Mature forests, made up of a mix of various aged trees as well as dead and decaying matter, may be carbon neutral above ground. In the soil, however, the gradual buildup of slowly decaying organic material will continue to accumulate carbon, but at a slower rate than an immature forest. This accumulation of organic material in the form of humus in the forest floor only occurs below about 25 degrees Celcius. Above this temperature, humus is oxidized. Tropical jungles, for this reason, have very thin organic soils. The forest eco-system may eventually become carbon neutral. Forest fires release absorbed carbon back into the atmosphere."

So apparently forrests do release carbon, but not in massive ammounts. Peat bogs apparently produce more carbon, but there arent enough peat bogs on the Earth to effect the atmosphere.

It may be a large amount of gas but it is still relatively small.
STATISTICALLY it is small, yes. But REALISTICALLY, thats a huge volume of gas. Even a small percentage of a large group is still a large piece in and of itself

Because heat is one of them!
Yes, by your logic heat would limit the growth of organisms that create CO2....thus you would have LESS CO2 in the atmosphere. Im picking up on a pattern with you and self-defeating systems.

The particularly interesting section of the cosmic rays, the muons does spark cloud seeding pretty much as soon as it enters the atmosphere as it produces a pretty high and exponential charge when reacting with particles in the air. This means that the change in temp. could only be as long as it takes for a cloud to form which is comparitively not long at all; I'm not saying that the whole thing is like a light switch but it is still a pretty quick process.
There needs to be the right gasses in the air to trap the heat, and the right concentrations take time to build up. According to your theory, cosmic rays produce heat which produces more heat which produces more CO2. The original heat has to create the CO2. You have GOT to see how non-sensical this sounds.

Changes in solar activity can occur quickly as I have said before. We maybe on a natural warming trend now but that doesn't stop anomalies such as markable warming over a short time from occuring.
Do you have evidence for solar anomolies occuring at the same time as other global warming trends?
 
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DaveS

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It should be. All you have is half an explanation and in science, thats not good enough.

No it really shouldn't. In scientific terms studying the effects of heat increase on CO2 levels is equivalent to studying the effects on the ground after you have stepped on it; it is interesting to look at but not anywhere near as important as the event of the step.

And I can find probably twice that number that state the exact opposite

Number does not mean correct in any terms. If this statement were true then scientific advancement simply would not happen as all new ideas are always in the minority to start with.

There havent been any studies on it for the same reason that there havent been any studies to determine if the Earth is flat. Because the idea is so half-baked and un-supported that its not accepted as valid.

Hence why a study is being planned at CERN...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/11/warm11.xml

Because its not the water itself that absorbs the CO2, its the microscopic life-forms in the water that actually absorb the CO2. Yes it does disperse in the water but the water itself does not absorb it.

Actually CO2 does dissolve in water forming carbonic acid. This is one of the valid concerns of increasing carbon dioxide levels although it seems to only affect a few metres on the surface for a short time when in high enough concentrations as it will react with other (natural) chemicals and usually be neutralised.
As you mentioned the microscopic life forms also help greatly as it *tends* to reduce the above effects.

I actually see a pretty steady downward trend all through the Cretaceous period.

With a spike at the end or rather the start of the tertiary age. This is 65 million years ago and coincides with the yucatan asteroid.

It DID effect the atmosphere, but not through CO2. Enormous volumes of ash and dust were thrown into the air and sulfur dioxide gas was throw into the clouds, acting like a mirror and reflecting back solar radiation. Global temperatures fell by several degrees in the several years after Krakatoa.

Even though there was plenty of CO2 which should have reflected back any heat towards the Earth?
Sulphur dioxide also readily oxidizes to sulphur trioxide. If it were 'ejected' ito the clouds then it would have reacted with the water vapour forming sulphuric acid. This is acid rain.
I may also point out that there were no significant drops in global temperature after Kakatoa anyway --- in 1883 the trend was downwards anyway and it leveled of in 1884 and 85 before rising again by 1886.

We would see a DRAMATIC surge in volcanic activity, as in FAR more than we have now.

Im curious, what exactly, in your opinion, is causing the core of the Earth to heat up.

But there is an increase nevertheless. The Earth's core could be heating up for any number of reasons from just a natural process to a response to certain stimuli -- the core is somewhat a mystery. This could afterall all be a small precursor of the expected polar reversal or simply the cause of the ice age cycle.

So apparently forrests do release carbon, but not in massive ammounts. Peat bogs apparently produce more carbon, but there arent enough peat bogs on the Earth to effect the atmosphere.

No, mature forests release enough carbon to cancel out the amount of carbon brought in hence the term 'carbon neutral'.

STATISTICALLY it is small, yes. But REALISTICALLY, thats a huge volume of gas. Even a small percentage of a large group is still a large piece in and of itself

Obviously, but by your logic of large numbers the large will always win against the small... regardless of facts.

Yes, by your logic heat would limit the growth of organisms that create CO2....thus you would have LESS CO2 in the atmosphere. Im picking up on a pattern with you and self-defeating systems.

No, increasing heat means increasing photosynthesis therefore more CO2.

There needs to be the right gasses in the air to trap the heat, and the right concentrations take time to build up. According to your theory, cosmic rays produce heat which produces more heat which produces more CO2. The original heat has to create the CO2. You have GOT to see how non-sensical this sounds.

Actually the cosmic rays (particularly muons) cause water particles to gain a charge which forms clouds - in other words cosmic rays actually cause a decrease in temperature.

Do you have evidence for solar anomolies occuring at the same time as other global warming trends?

Yes of course, if you take the gaph below you can see that there are overall irradiance trends throughout the last 400 years of up and down fairly gradually. However, this is in no means a simple increasing curve but almost all spikes and troughs - what we are experiencing now is a spike in a relatively slow increasing trend. The global mean temp. has also been decreasing for the last 2 years.
http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/irradiance.gif
http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/IrradianceVsTemp.gif
 
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Steezie

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No it really shouldn't. In scientific terms studying the effects of heat increase on CO2 levels is equivalent to studying the effects on the ground after you have stepped on it; it is interesting to look at but not anywhere near as important as the event of the step.
The point is that your theory is half-complete and as such it cannot be taken seriously.

Number does not mean correct in any terms. If this statement were true then scientific advancement simply would not happen as all new ideas are always in the minority to start with.
The general scientific community is, for the most part, agreeing with the idea that global warming is a problem and is created by us. These are HIGHLY educated people with, in many cases, years of experience. I am much more inclined to trust them if 90% of them are saying the same thing.

Hence why a study is being planned at CERN...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../11/warm11.xml
How are these ions created? Why havent we seen an increase in cloud-cover of the planet?

Actually CO2 does dissolve in water forming carbonic acid. This is one of the valid concerns of increasing carbon dioxide levels although it seems to only affect a few metres on the surface for a short time when in high enough concentrations as it will react with other (natural) chemicals and usually be neutralised.
As you mentioned the microscopic life forms also help greatly as it *tends* to reduce the above effects.
True, but its formed in negligible ammounts and carbonic acid itself is unstable.

Living creatures in the ocean give us much of our oxygen supply through recycling CO2. Something like two-thirds of our oxygen comes from photosynthetic organisms in the ocean.

With a spike at the end or rather the start of the tertiary age. This is 65 million years ago and coincides with the yucatan asteroid.
You're kidding, you're calling THAT a spike? A six mile diameter asteroid only did that much to the CO2 levels?

Even though there was plenty of CO2 which should have reflected back any heat towards the Earth?
CO2 acts like an insulator. Heat is absorbed by the Earth then released back out, except it bounces off CO2 in the atmosphere and is reflected back at the Earth.

Sulphur dioxide also readily oxidizes to sulphur trioxide. If it were 'ejected' ito the clouds then it would have reacted with the water vapour forming sulphuric acid. This is acid rain.
No dispute there.

I may also point out that there were no significant drops in global temperature after Kakatoa anyway --- in 1883 the trend was downwards anyway and it leveled of in 1884 and 85 before rising again by 1886.
Really? So the global drop of roughly 35 degrees was just....coincidence?
( http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/images/temp-anom-larg.jpg ) This also shows a severe drop in temperature a few years before 1900, corresponding to the Krakatoa explosion.

But there is an increase nevertheless
Which does not necessarily indicate a correlation.

The Earth's core could be heating up for any number of reasons from just a natural process to a response to certain stimuli -- the core is somewhat a mystery
So you admit theres no real way to tell if the core is heating up or not

No, mature forests release enough carbon to cancel out the amount of carbon brought in hence the term 'carbon neutral'.
Then what effect would you expect from the wide de-forrestation thats been occuring since the beginning of the industrial revolution?

Obviously, but by your logic of large numbers the large will always win against the small... regardless of facts.
That is not my logic in ALL things, with scientific studies (provided they are done correctly and from valid sources) yes. But not with this.

No, increasing heat means increasing photosynthesis therefore more CO2.
How do you figgure? If you increase the rate of photosynthesis, you increase the ammount of oxygen you put out. Never mind that theres NOTHING that says more heat means more production (Beyond the obvious).

Actually the cosmic rays (particularly muons) cause water particles to gain a charge which forms clouds - in other words cosmic rays actually cause a decrease in temperature.
Then why are we seeing a global INCREASE in temperatures?

Yes of course, if you take the gaph below you can see that there are overall irradiance trends throughout the last 400 years of up and down fairly gradually. However, this is in no means a simple increasing curve but almost all spikes and troughs - what we are experiencing now is a spike in a relatively slow increasing trend. The global mean temp. has also been decreasing for the last 2 years.
The second graph shows the complete opposite of what your theory suggests, whenver the cosmic rays take a jump, CO2 takes a drop. There is an over-all increase, but nothing to suggest a correlation between CO2 and cosmis rays.
 
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DaveS

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The point is that your theory is half-complete and as such it cannot be taken seriously.

No it really isn't 'half-complete' as I thought I had just explained. CO2 rising as a result of temperature change is NOT anything at all to do with the actual processes concerned which do change the climate to a large degree --- it is simply an effect which as yet has not been studied in detail.
I may also point out that the logic you were using is faulty anyway. Take for example the Theory of Gravity; we know it happens and we can measure it (as we can CO2). However, we still do not really know what exactly is the cause, only that it's effect is greater with objects of larger mass. This does not mean in anyway that the theory cannot be taken seriously as we still know it happens. We do not need the answer to everything as we simply cannot know the answer to everything!

The general scientific community is, for the most part, agreeing with the idea that global warming is a problem and is created by us. These are HIGHLY educated people with, in many cases, years of experience. I am much more inclined to trust them if 90% of them are saying the same thing.

Once upon a time Darwin was the only scientist to believe in natural selection... as was Newton with gravity and Eisntein with general and special relativity. Simply because an idea is new and has not spread throughout the scentific community DOES NOT and cannot mean that it is false.

How are these ions created? Why havent we seen an increase in cloud-cover of the planet?

For question one see below article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muon
For question two it is simple - increased cloud cover at a particular level in the atmosphere (will have to check book for particulars) causes a decrease in temperature. As we are currently warming up (excluding last 2 years) then there obviously would not be an inc. in cloud cover.

You're kidding, you're calling THAT a spike? A six mile diameter asteroid only did that much to the CO2 levels?

Which is exactly my point. A continent wide fireball cannot actually effect CO2 levels to any significant level beyond the normal fluctuations of nature. It may have caused a mass extinction event but it certainly was not because of the CO2.

CO2 acts like an insulator. Heat is absorbed by the Earth then released back out, except it bounces off CO2 in the atmosphere and is reflected back at the Earth.

In other words with an event like Krakatoa the heat being released from the Earth during this event should have been reflected, causing a warming event. However, you have stated that temperatures actually cooled.

Really? So the global drop of roughly 35 degrees was just....coincidence?
( http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globa...-anom-larg.jpg ) This also shows a severe drop in temperature a few years before 1900, corresponding to the Krakatoa explosion.

35 DEGREES?!?!?!
A drop of 35 degrees would have caused a global ice age.
A severe drop of less than 0.05 degrees? It is not clear exactly where 1883 is on the graph anyway due to it's rather unclear x-axis.

So you admit theres no real way to tell if the core is heating up or not

No, I said it is difficult to determine the exact reason.

Then what effect would you expect from the wide de-forrestation thats been occuring since the beginning of the industrial revolution?

Absolutely no effect whatsoever -- with mature forests in carbon terms they have very little effect if they exist or not hence 'carbon neutral'. However, if these forests are being replanted (which many are) then this will provide somewhat of a carbon sink.

That is not my logic in ALL things, with scientific studies (provided they are done correctly and from valid sources) yes. But not with this.

So it applies when you feel like it? My theory is afterall a scientific study and so far you have not been able to fault the theory or the validity of the sources.

How do you figgure? If you increase the rate of photosynthesis, you increase the ammount of oxygen you put out. Never mind that theres NOTHING that says more heat means more production (Beyond the obvious).

Because more photosynthesis means more respiration which means more carbon dioxide. I have just explained that increased temperature does mean more production - have a look at nearly any biology textbook.

Then why are we seeing a global INCREASE in temperatures?

Because we are going through a period of increasing solar irradiance which means less cosmic rays therefore increasing temperatures.

The second graph shows the complete opposite of what your theory suggests, whenver the cosmic rays take a jump, CO2 takes a drop. There is an over-all increase, but nothing to suggest a correlation between CO2 and cosmis rays.

No, it shows exactly what my theory suggests. Increased cosmic rays means more clouds which means decreasing temperature. As a result CO2 also decreases. In other words, the graph shows pretty much an identical inverse correlation.
 
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Steezie

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Ok, this was fun for a while and I THOUGHT we were getting somewhere, but you keep bouncing all over the place. You say one thing, it gets countered, then you switch to something else. You arent seeing that the theory you advance is a self-defeating cycle and self-defeating cycles dont last long in nature.

Battle with a Ferrous Cranus is truly frustrating.
 
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I remember the zeitgeist from the previous generation was Global Cooling and the coming Ice Age back in the mid 70's. It seems the catastrophes change from one age to the next, but the tactics don't. Here's a short, 4 minute video illustrating this.

Video: Global Cooling: The Coming Ice Age

"There are ominous signs that the Earth's weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production — with serious political implications for just about every nation on Earth. The drop in food output could begin quite soon, perhaps only 10 years from now."​

Newsweek April 28, 1975 on global cooling
______​

"The evidence in support of these predictions has now begun to accumulate so massively that meteorologists are hard-pressed to keep up with it."​

Newsweek April 28, 1975 on global cooling
______​

"Meteorologists disagree about the cause and extent of the trend, as well as over its specific impact on local weather conditions. But they are almost unanimous in the view that the trend will reduce agricultural productivity for the rest of the century. If the climatic change is as profound as some of the pessimists fear, the resulting famines could be catastrophic."​

Newsweek April 28, 1975 on global cooling
______​

The longer the planners delay, the more difficult will they find it to cope with climatic change once the results become grim reality."​

Newsweek April 28, 1975 on global cooling
______​

"Whatever the cause of the cooling trend, its effects could be extrememly serious, if not catastrophic. Scientists figure that only a 1% decrease in the amount of sunlight hitting the earth's surface could tip the climatic balance, and cool the planet enough to send it sliding down the road to another ice age within only a few hundred years."​


Time Magazine June 24, 1974
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"Man, too, may be somewhat responsible for the cooling trend. The University of Wisconsin's Reid A. Bryson and other climatologists suggest that dust and other particles released into the atmosphere as a result of farming and fuel burning may be blocking more and more sunlight from reaching and heating the surface of the Earth."​


Time June 24, 1974​




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Greatcloud

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First of all I would like to address consensus, here are some level headed people who don't believe the big swindle:



NASA space agency
ClimateAudit
Max Planck Institute for solar research http://www.mps.mpg.de/en/projekte/sun-climate/
Natural Resources Stewardship Project
Earth System Science Center
Science & Enviromental Policy Project
Royal Dutch Meteorological society
The Ayn Rand Institute

Survey of U.S. state climatologists 1997
In 1997, the anti-regulation think tank Citizens for a Sound Economy surveyed America's 48 official state climatologists on questions related to climate change [31]. Of the 36 respondents, 44% considered global warming to be a largely natural phenomenon, compared to 17% who considered warming to be largely manmade. The survey further found that 58% disagreed or somewhat disagreed with then-President Clinton's assertion that "the overwhelming balance of evidence and scientific opinion is that it is no longer a theory, but now fact, that global warming is for real". Eighty-nine percent agreed that "current science is unable to isolate and measure variations in global temperatures caused ONLY by man-made factors," and 61% said that historical data do not indicate "that fluctuations in global temperatures are attributable to human influences such as burning fossil fuels."
60% of the respondents said that reducing man-made CO2 emissions by 15% below 1990 levels would not prevent global temperatures from rising, and 86% said that reducing emissions to 1990 levels would not prevent rising temperatures. 39% agreed and 33% disagreed that "evidence exists to suggest that the earth is headed for another glacial period," [32] though the time scale for the next glacial period was not specified

And all it takes is one person with the correct science. More are changing to debunking AGW every day more papers debunking it are
Showing up every day. Many are jumping on the Cosmic Ray Theory bandwagon and they are jumping from AGW. It never was a good theory it just had good funding.LOL:p

The answer that that nice young man was looking for, to the question.
"Where does the CO2 come from in response to the temperature rise."

The answer is when heat and light increase from the Sun. You have a corresponding increase in plant growth. Then when heat & light go down, because of the Sun. Plants die off in massive amounts creating a sharp rise in CO2.

End of old business: and by that I am saying I believe CRT and solar forcing.

On to new business: I have an idea why not try an experiment. Like this one:

A Dallas high school science teacher is suggesting we should let the kids prove or disprove weather CO2 is the cause of global warming. He is recommending that a simple model using a sealed terrarium, injecting water vapor as the major greenhouse gas.
Then, periodically inject CO2 and measure the results. In his experiment, his class finally gave up after increasing CO2 to 20 times normal atmospheric volume without being able to increase the temperature.
A simple experiment that lets the class see for themselves, rather than trying to weigh this study against that study, etc. Let the kids reach their own conclusions!

I and many people, along with many climatologists and scientists, in related fields, think CO2 is not a forcing agent in climate.It has been 20 years, where is your proof. Why can't you demonstrate natural and manmade heating in the atmosphere. Where is your formula ?
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