The gift of tongues, a biblical defense of a most controversial gift.

Carl Emerson

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Paul says that man beheld the glory of God in creation and rather than worship Him, man instead worshiped the created rather than the Creator. So, no, these things don't. Apart from faith man gazes at creation and turns to idolatry. First must come faith.

-CryptoLutheran

I don't see that from Romans one can conclude that no one responded rightly to His conviction through what is revealed in creation.

If His Word is being expressed through creation a faith response is possible.

Our indigenous people had a high place of worship to the God they called Io who they knew was a loving God above all other gods.

As a result the Gospel was well received here and spread very rapidly. The had foreknowledge - the already knew something of the Father of Jesus.
 
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Guojing

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I am puzzled as to why you ask questions that have already been answered...

So my question, which was not answered is, if you believe that, why would you state that "Is this not creating faith in those who believe in Him through seeing His wondrous work?"

Isn't that going against what Paul meant there?
 
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Carl Emerson

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But you did say you are "expecting an eternity in which the Glories of Jesus are progressively revealed" to us.

So by that, you are implying it is not a contradiction to believe that faith and hope will still be required for us during eternity?

Faith and Hope will be enjoyed in eternity.

Think of the 24 elders bowing before the throne perpetually forever.

Each time they look up they see more of His Glory and bow down in awe.

Is this not at the heart of our eternal relationship with Him?

You will notice in John 17 two unities are spoken of - the unity of believers with Jesus - the unity of Jesus with the Father and the Spirit. The first is ever knowing more about His awesome nature and works, the second is the unity in the Godhead itself in which all is fully known. Jesus gave up this knowledge for a time in becoming human and securing our salvation through the cross.

We will eternally be in awe of Him as we are amazed again and again regarding His Nature and Glory and Wonders.
 
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Guojing

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Faith and Hope will be enjoyed in eternity.

Think of the 24 elders bowing before the throne perpetually forever.

Each time they look up they see more of His Glory and bow down in awe.

Is this not at the heart of our eternal relationship with Him?

You will notice in John 17 two unities are spoken of - the unity of believers with Jesus - the unity of Jesus with the Father and the Spirit. The first is ever knowing more about His awesome nature and works, the second is the unity in the Godhead itself in which all is fully known. Jesus gave up this knowledge for a time in becoming human and securing our salvation through the cross.

We will eternally be in awe of Him as we are amazed again and again regarding His Nature and Glory and Wonders.

Interesting that I used the term required, while you subtly, or otherwise, change it to enjoyed.

Maybe that is why people don't think you have addressed their question, even though you think it was already addressed. =)
 
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Carl Emerson

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So my question, which was not answered is, if you believe that, why would you state that "Is this not creating faith in those who believe in Him through seeing His wondrous work?"

Isn't that going against what Paul meant there?

When did I not say that faith comes from seeing His wonderous work - really - why do you ask this when it has been clearly stated?

Look at John 17 again - the unsaved see the unity and love between believers and give Him glory. By this the body grows. Folks are drawn to Jesus. The gift of faith operates.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Interesting that I used the term required, while you subtly, or otherwise, change it to enjoyed.

Maybe that is why people don't think you have addressed their question, even though you think it was already addressed. =)

I am very careful about what words I choose.

The relationship in eternity with Him is not Master/slave with requirements, but a perfect harmony in His Love that is eternal enjoyment...
 
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Guojing

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When did I not say that faith comes from seeing His wonderous work - really - why do you ask this when it has been clearly stated?

You cannot see how you are contradicting yourself?

You believe to Walk by faith is different from to walk by sight

But you also believe that Faith is created thru seeing (sight) his works,

In the book of John which you seem to love to quote from, the works of Jesus is equivalent to signs and wonders, which is the topic in this thread.

But never mind, if you cannot see the contradiction, we can move on from this.
 
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Carl Emerson

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You cannot see how you are contradicting yourself?

You believe to Walk by faith is different from to walk by sight

But you also believe that Faith is created thru seeing (sight) his works,

In the book of John which you seem to love to quote from, the works of Jesus is equivalent to signs and wonders, which is the topic in this thread.

But never mind, if you cannot see the contradiction, we can move on from this.

Lets not move on...

You are confusing two different 'sights' the seeing of the spirit and the seeing of the eyes.
 
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Guojing

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Lets not move on...

You are confusing two different 'sights' the seeing of the spirit and the seeing of the eyes.

Interesting how you seem to be "making up" all these distinctions as we move along.

To me when I read Paul stating we walk by faith and not by sight, I don't try to complicate issues by further splitting the meaning of sight into "sight of the spirit" and "sight of the eyes".

Walking by faith is different from walking by sight, period. =)
 
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Guojing

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Jesus did not judge by what His eyes saw and His ears heard.

Interestingly, regarding signs and wonders, this was what he said to Israel in your favorite book John, John 10:37-38

If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me.

But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

He is appealing to Israel that, at the end of the day, they should at the very least walk by sight and believe in the signs and wonders he did, even if they could not summon enough faith to believe that he is the Son of God.

Now you understand better why Paul stated about Jews requiring a sign to believe (1 Corinthians 1:22) but in contrast, we are to walk by faith instead?
 
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Carl Emerson

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He is appealing to Israel that, at the end of the day, they should at the very least walk by sight and believe in the signs and wonders he did, even if they could not summon enough faith to believe that he is the Son of God.

Faith is a gift - we don't summon it up.

Why did Jesus speak in parables - so the unbelieving would not understand.

Matt 13:

And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

Same with Israel - Jesus did not recommend walking by sight - rather He was appealing to those who had been given faith in the Father to recognise through the miracles who Jesus really was.
 
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Guojing

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Faith is a gift - we don't summon it up.

Why did Jesus speak in parables - so the unbelieving would not understand.

Matt 13:

And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

Same with Israel - Jesus did not recommend walking by sight - rather He was appealing to those who had been given faith in the Father to recognise through the miracles who Jesus really was.

Seems you continue to hold this view that you need to be given faith in order to recognize signs, despite also agreeing about 2 Corinthians 5:7

Alright I gave you that scripture but of course if you want to interpret differently, that is your perogative

As for your first point, he spoke in parables midway thru his ministry, so that the nation of Israel could be legitimately given a 2nd chance, after the cross, to believe, as peter would remind them in acts 3:17
 
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Carl Emerson

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Seems you continue to hold this view that you need to be given faith in order to recognize signs, despite also agreeing about 2 Corinthians 5:7

Alright I gave you that scripture but of course if you want to interpret differently, that is your perogative

As for your first point, he spoke in parables midway thru his ministry, so that the nation of Israel could be legitimately given a 2nd chance, after the cross, to believe, as peter would remind them in acts 3:17

There is no logical contradiction in my position.

Last point - the truth of scripture is still only understood by those gifted to understand. It must be spiritually discerned.
 
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Guojing

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There is no logical contradiction in my position.

Last point - the truth of scripture is still only understood by those gifted to understand. It must be spiritually discerned.

In what possible world, would the words in the KJV of

But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

be interpreted as Jesus teaching "He was appealing to those who had been given faith in the Father to recognise through the miracles who Jesus really was"?

"Even if you don't believe in me, believe my works (signs)" becomes "those who had been given faith in the Father to recognise through the miracles who Jesus really was"?

Are you sure you can just change the meaning like that?
 
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1an

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You're certainly entitled to your opinion, which that's what this is at base level without any scriptural evidence to refute my points. I will grant you that the "tongues of angels" could be an exagerration, but even excluding that, the sure multitude of modern active languages, and ancient dead ones would be impossible for any science to disprove. Not to mention, tongues has more than one application, scriptural application. With an interpreter, without an interpreter, or in an evangelistic scenario.
It caught my eye when you mentioned the tongues of angles. I suppose you know that men sent by God to teach and preach are also known as angels. The tongues of angels, not necessarily in an unknown language, would include the apostles. Paul, as you will know was very keen that there should be an interpreter present, but on a few occasions I have listened to wonderful speakers, who although speaking in English, were clearly preaching under the influence of the Holy Spirit.
 
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1an

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Enormously presumptuous comment about professional linguists. Wonder who funded that research?But by all means provide a reference.

Thousands of reports of people speaking in other languages and those languages being interpreted correctly!

Here is one of many I have witnessed:
1986 I took leaders from a cessationist church I was attending to visit a Charasmatic church I had attended in my teens. A woman got up and shared a tongue, ten seconds later a man got up across the room and shared its interpretation. One of the leaders' wives turned to her sister and they looked amazed and started whispering back and forth. Later after the service was over the wife of the leader (Anna) asked me to introduce her to the woman who had shared the tongue. I did and Anna greeted her in another language. The woman gave her a blank stare. Anna tried a second time... no response. Finally Anna said, "I was introducing myself in Greek, you spoke perfect Greek earlier in the service. I grew up in Greece and you spoke it like a native speaker." Astonished, the woman turned to her husband and said, "Did you hear this woman, she said my tongue is Greek."

A minute later we repeated that scene but with the man whom had interpreted the Greek tongue. Here too, Anna greeted him in Greek and received blank stares. Both the tongue and the interpretation were flawless, and the tongue had the accent nad intonation of a Greek native!

Needless to say this ended the debate.

I speak in tongues and have since the summer of 1976. A missionary heard me speaking once and said it was a Central African dialect. I have prayed for dozens to receive the gift and some have received it instantly others took over 6 months to receive it, but all who asked received.

I asked people to make up a language on the fly and just speak it out... it always sounds like gibberish! Then I speak or ask someone with the gift of tongues to speak and ask the audience what they heard, not 1 in a 1000 has ever thought they were remotely the same.

I patiently await your professional luinguists' study...
On speaking in tongues...
Because secular universities (the only place one finds professional linguists these days) are so interested in studying obscure features of Charasmatic Evangelical Protestant phenomena.

That last part was unkind I know, but think of it as style-matching.
To be honest, I wouldn't expect very ordinary people to be speaking in Chinese or whatever foreign language. I have never had any desire to speak in tongues, so have never sought the gift, but my father used to and interpret as well, and he used to see images that he would describe, so not a language as we think of it.
.
 
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Carl Emerson

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In what possible world, would the words in the KJV of

But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

be interpreted as Jesus teaching "He was appealing to those who had been given faith in the Father to recognise through the miracles who Jesus really was"?

"Even if you don't believe in me, believe my works (signs)" becomes "those who had been given faith in the Father to recognise through the miracles who Jesus really was"?

Are you sure you can just change the meaning like that?

OK - lets just cool down a bit...

I invite other readers to comment on this understanding of this verse that you are claiming.

Maybe you could clearly quote it and follow with your interpretation...

To be fair this should be on a new thread.
 
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