The Friendly OT Bible Study

[philadiddle]

I'd like to take a break from debating to look at God's word as brothers and sisters in Christ. Let's discuss the meaning of the creation and flood accounts in genesis. I'd like to examine the meaning theologically, personally, and generally for all mankind. I'd really like us to try hard to stay away from arguing whether or not it's literal. No statements like "if it's literal then it means..." or "...and that's how I know it's allegory."

If anyone makes even a vague reference about "literal", "myth", "allegory", or anything like that, let it go, there are plenty of other threads to discuss that.

Some meanings from the creation account could be (from an old post by shernren)
- God is the Creator.
- Everything else is created, and therefore nothing else deserves to be worshiped as god.
- Man is made in God's image.
- Man has responsibilities as God's representative in nature.
- God's prescribed pattern for the Sabbath.
- The establishment of God as Warrior Yahweh standing against chaos and defeating it to produce order. (Bonus marks! This is interesting in the light of statements where God proclaims His authority as "maker of Heaven and Earth" and then uses this authority to proclaim His protection and favour towards Israel. The implication is that just as God was able to defeat chaos to produce order, so God will defeat the chaos of the Gentile nations to protect and prosper the order He has founded in Israel.)

I look forward to your input.

1 more thing. The reason I'm asking questions in the posts below is because I'm thinking of this as a real bible study, and want to understand what ppl are saying more in depth. Some things don't need explanation because they're obvious, like that God is the only God and created everything. There are other meanings that may need more explaining. If you think something you post may need explaining, then lay it out as if you were leading a bible study.

 

[Assyrian]

If you get the privilege to hear Gen 1 read out in Hebrew, it is a powerful, resonant, joyful, triumphant celebration of God as the creator.

 

[crawfish]

A key feature: the fact that creation is good. This is in direct contrast to the to other cultures of the time, who felt creation was evil.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That the chosen will be taken from a low place of strife, preserved through death, and awaken in a high place. Jesus alluded to this to the thief on the cross.

 

[juvenissun]

If anyone makes even a vague reference about "literal", "myth", "allegory", or anything like that, let it go, there are plenty of other threads to discuss that.

Woman and man ARE different. There are jobs "better" for man and there are jobs better for woman.

(should this idea be thrown out in the Origin session? )

 

[philadiddle]

That the chosen will be taken from a low place of strife, preserved through death, and awaken in a high place. Jesus alluded to this to the thief on the cross.

How does Gen 1-11 say this? I'm just asking to see what specific passages allude to this.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

How does Gen 1-11 say this? I'm just asking to see what specific passages allude to this.

You asked for 'meanings'. The whole meaning of the story of Noah and the flood is that of salvation. All of the elements are present: Calling, election, faith, baptism, trials, acts of faith, resurrection, redemption.

 

[philadiddle]

You asked for 'meanings'. The whole meaning of the story of Noah and the flood is that of salvation. All of the elements are present: Calling, election, faith, baptism, trials, acts of faith, resurrection, redemption.

Of the elements that you listed, please tell me what elements are represented by what parts of the flood story. I'm interested to see it how you do.

 

[philadiddle]

1 more thing. The reason I'm asking questions is because I'm thinking of this as a real bible study, and want to understand what ppl are saying more in depth. Some things don't need explanation because they're obvious, like that God is the only God and created everything. There are other meanings that may need more explaining. If you think something you post may need explaining, then lay it out as if you were leading a bible study.

 

[gluadys]

Woman and man ARE different. There are jobs "better" for man and there are jobs better for woman.

(should this idea be thrown out in the Origin session? )

Men and women are different biologically to be sure. As they need to be for reproduction. But I think the important message is that they are equal, especially in marriage. They are the same species, made of the same flesh and as the old Jewish commentary says, Eve made of Adam's rib---not his head to rule him, nor his feet to be under him, but from his side, near his heart, to be his cherished and equal companion.

As for "jobs", in the creation accounts, men and women are given the same jobs. Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, have dominion over fish, fowl & beasts. Adam was given the task of tillling the earth and tending the garden and Eve was to be his helper in this. So no difference in jobs. I think you are adding something there.

 

[Assyrian]

That the chosen will be taken from a low place of strife, preserved through death, and awaken in a high place. Jesus alluded to this to the thief on the cross.

How does Gen 1-11 say this? I'm just asking to see what specific passages allude to this.

Mentioning the thief on the cross brings up the promise of paradise. A bit of word history here. It is the Persian word for garden, especially a beautiful royal garden. But more important for us, it is the word used by the Septuagint translators for the garden of Eden. We find references to paradise, the garden of Eden, in the Jewish apocalyptic literature of this period, who believed the garden still existed, possibly on top of a mountain, or in one of the heavens. Paul, 2Cor 12:4 and John, Rev 2:7 21:2&22:2 agree with the second tradition and place God's paradise in heaven.

So, what can we read from Genesis itself? There is still a Paradise, the Garden of God with the tree of life in the midst of it, but we are cut off from it and subject to death. But there was also the promise of a redeemer who would crush the snake's head, and (implicitly in Genesis and explicitly elsewhere) restore our relationship with God and restore us to life.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Of the elements that you listed, please tell me what elements are represented by what parts of the flood story. I'm interested to see it how you do.

These elements are pretty obvious considering the whole of God's plan as revealed by the rest of the bible story. The main theme of the event is the salvation of the just and the destruction of the wicked and corrupt. A good study would be the comparison of that day to the present day. Most if not all of the same conditions prevail; the wickedness of man, the corruption of the earth itself, and the impending judgement of God.

An interesting statement/prophecy concerning Noah's sons and their descendants: "Japheth (having been enlarged) will dwell in the tents of Shem, and Canaan will be his servant." This is occuring now as more Asians are being educated and living in the west. In fact Asians living in the U.S. earn more than their white counterparts. This would make a good study as well.

 

[busterdog]

1 more thing. The reason I'm asking questions is because I'm thinking of this as a real bible study, and want to understand what ppl are saying more in depth. Some things don't need explanation because they're obvious, like that God is the only God and created everything. There are other meanings that may need more explaining. If you think something you post may need explaining, then lay it out as if you were leading a bible study.

One good view of the common understanding is to look at the common enemy.

Consider the movie, The Fountain,

Films By Genre> Dramas> Fountain, The "The Fountain" (2006)

The Fountain is an odyssey about one man's thousand-year struggle to save the woman he loves. His epic journey begins in 16th century Spain, where conquistador Tomas Creo commences his search for the Tree of Life, the legendary entity believed to grant eternal life to those who drink of its sap.

http://movies.about.com/od/thefountain/The_Fountain_2006.htm

Apart from whatever lessons that may be learned from the heroine's desire to be reconciled to her terminal cancer, the basic set up should speak volumes.

Part of the story involves a conquistador who confronts an Aztec (I think) priest on a Mexican pyramid. The Priest has a flaming sword, by which he guards the Tree of Life. If you are like my wife you say, what? What's the big deal? If you are like me, you are saying coming, its obvious, don't you see the problem?

Well, the real and authentic route to eternal life does not lead through this particular monument to human sacrifice. Hugh Jackman, hello? hello? Was ritual sacrifice a human rights violation or just a quaint religious practice? What else were those freakin' pyramids for?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture

Now, maybe you need to be a Literature Geek to appreciate the conflict. But to me the rather obvious conflict between real, eternal life through the sacrifice of Jesus and buying a little more life through the slaughter of others is more than alarming.

So, what exactly is the tree of life? Our heroine provides a simple but honest paeon to the glories of becoming fertilizer for the tree, which makes leaves, which get eaten by bugs, at which point you are flying as the bug flies away. You know, I really like Mexican food, but being fodder for la cucaracha crawling across a tortilla just doesn't get it for me.

By the way, Hugh does find the tree of life after dispatching the flaming-sword wielding Priest, who bows before him sacrificially. That was touching. Anyone see a parallel? Not just with Rainier Wolfcastle. But, who exactly do you think the flaming sword was to guard against? Satan?

By the way, our Aztec Priest friend states that "First Father" "sacrificed himself" for the tree of life. You can debate which Biblical personality this was. Maybe you can guess my vote. Who wanted to be like God and fell as a result? Who does the Priest call "First Father"? The conquistador who cuts his throat as the Priest bows and offers his throat.

However, I do appreciate the honesty. All that this twisting of the real Tree of Life story has to offer us is the prospect of becoming worm food. Hakuna matata!

The real tree of life offers that distinct salvation in Genesis.

By the way, our conquistador does get a taste of the tree. Horrified he is consumed by some plant that grows out of him as a result.

Freakin' worm food! I can't believe what people get off on! But, this nightmare has legs! People pay millions for it.