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The Four Part Cure

Eudaimonist

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5f5smh7Keo&feature=youtu.be

The Tetrapharmakos

1) God is nothing to fear
2) Death is nothing to worry about
3) It is easy to acquire the good things in life
4) It is easy to endure the terrible things

Watch the video and comment. To what extent does Epicurean philosophy make good points? To what extent does it fail? Would you be content as an Epicurean?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 

jayem

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Good video. Concise and lucid. I've always appreciated Epicurus. He was spot on about gods, and the senselessness of worrying about death, afterlife, etc. But his prescription for dealing with the vicissitudes of life is rather facile. When those painful and terrible things happen, it's much easier to talk about changing your attitude, than actually doing it.
 
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Eudaimonist

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But his prescription for dealing with the vicissitudes of life is rather facile. When those painful and terrible things happen, it's much easier to talk about changing your attitude, than actually doing it.

Do you mean that it is not easy to take the time to meditate regularly on the maxims, or that meditation doesn't change one's attitude even if one is diligent?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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jayem

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Do you mean that it is not easy to take the time to meditate regularly on the maxims, or that meditation doesn't change one's attitude even if one is diligent?


eudaimonia,

Mark


Mostly the former. But the latter applies, too. A lot of unhappiness and maladaptive thinking and behavior results from mental disease, i.e, depression, bipolar disorder, OCD, etc. These are physical illnesses, and I'm not convinced that meditation alone will be adequate.
 
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Eudaimonist

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A lot of unhappiness and maladaptive thinking and behavior results from mental disease, i.e, depression, bipolar disorder, OCD, etc. These are physical illnesses, and I'm not convinced that meditation alone will be adequate.

I don't think that anything can be done by philosophy alone regarding physical illnesses. It's a bit much to ask for that.

I would think that Epicurus had aimed his ideas at physically healthy people who actually can benefit by them.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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GrowingSmaller

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1) God is nothing to fear.



There is a saying of an arab poet. He was asked "What is piety?" He answered "What would you do if you came across a land ful of thistles?" "I would avoid it", the asker answered. "Do the same in the world, it is piety" was the poet's wise response.
 
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Paradoxum

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1) I agree there is no need to fear God, but that's because I don't believe in it. I don't care enough to think about the specific arguments in the video on this issue. :D

2) I disagree that wanting to live longer is like wanting to be born earlier. I don't want to be born earlier... things were worse in the past. I do want to live long because there are things I want to do (like marry), technologies to play with (we have old technologies now), and I want to know the end of the story (we have history for knowing the past).

I don't fear being dead, I fear dying before I'm ready.

3) This may be partly true, but I'm not sure making friends is as easy for all people. Also I'd include having a 'significant other' as also a good thing in life, but they aren't always that easy to find. Again, some find it easier than others.

If all you are going to do is eat and drink water, what's the point in living? I know he included friends... but friends aren't 'necessary'.

4) I'm not sure you could say that committing suicide is enduring the suffering.
 
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Eudaimonist

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2) I disagree that wanting to live longer is like wanting to be born earlier. I don't want to be born earlier... things were worse in the past. I do want to live long because there are things I want to do (like marry), technologies to play with (we have old technologies now), and I want to know the end of the story (we have history for knowing the past).

I don't fear being dead, I fear dying before I'm ready.

I sympathize with what you are saying here. I too would not want to die before I feel that my life is reasonably "complete". It is a tragedy when young people die because of untapped potential. It doesn't feel like such a tragedy when old people die, though that could in part be because their bodies are deteriorating. But if they could have their aging stopped? It becomes less clear.

3) This may be partly true, but I'm not sure making friends is as easy for all people.

Of course not. However, I don't think that was ever Epicurus's view.

Also I'd include having a 'significant other' as also a good thing in life, but they aren't always that easy to find. Again, some find it easier than others.

Sure. I'm not certain what his view was on significant others. I might have to do some reading to find out. It could be a "modern" perspective.

If all you are going to do is eat and drink water, what's the point in living?

That's a fair question, but I don't think that it is entirely fair to Epicurus. I think that he had included more values than that.

I know he included friends... but friends aren't 'necessary'.

No? I have to disagree, even though I am an introvert. Friendship provides important psychological values. But I can't speak for you, of course.

4) I'm not sure you could say that committing suicide is enduring the suffering.

The Greeks and Romans seem to have been more comfortable with the idea of suicide than moderns. In their perspective, suicide would be a legitimate way out of pain. I agree that it is not precisely "enduring" pain.

Thanks for your reply! You've made several good points.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Chany

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Keep in mind Epicurus is using death in terms of the state we are in after our lives on this earth are over. He's not saying I shouldn't fear the process of dying or the possibility of an earlier demise, but I shouldn't fear what comes after.

In short, don't fear the afterlife. We cease to exist after the moment of dying, so fearing the state of death is like fearing the state before we were born.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Keep in mind Epicurus is using death in terms of the state we are in after our lives on this earth are over. He's not saying I shouldn't fear the process of dying or the possibility of an earlier demise, but I shouldn't fear what comes after.

In short, don't fear the afterlife. We cease to exist after the moment of dying, so fearing the state of death is like fearing the state before we were born.

Yes, that's exactly right. That is what he is saying.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Paradoxum

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I sympathize with what you are saying here. I too would not want to die before I feel that my life is reasonably "complete". It is a tragedy when young people die because of untapped potential. It doesn't feel like such a tragedy when old people die, though that could in part be because their bodies are deteriorating. But if they could have their aging stopped? It becomes less clear.

Yeah, it doesn't seem so bad when old people die. I understand that my Grandad died, but I'm not sure I even fully comprehend, in my heart, that a girl from my old school died at 17.

I think I'm in favour of stopping ageing. If it were ended, I don't think we would be okay with 80 year olds dying... especially if we were kept at a young age physically.

But then many old people seem to wind down their lives. They don't work, and their bodies allow them to do less, so it does seem like their life actually is in it's last 'act'.

If humans had no natural age to die, people would carry on as if they had time to do much more.

Of course not. However, I don't think that was ever Epicurus's view.

I'm just going off this thread. I'm not sure it's fair to say that having friends, who you feel a deep connection with, is easy.

Sure. I'm not certain what his view was on significant others. I might have to do some reading to find out. It could be a "modern" perspective.

I suppose the idea of getting married for love is fairly new, but I don't know what the classical Greeks culture was on this issue.

That's a fair question, but I don't think that it is entirely fair to Epicurus. I think that he had included more values than that.

Maybe it isn't fair, I'm just going by the information in their thread. The only other easy things to gain (in the video) was friends.

No? I have to disagree, even though I am an introvert. Friendship provides important psychological values. But I can't speak for you, of course.

I'm a somewhat shy introvert, and I love friends. But they aren't necessary for life... unless you consider suicide because of boredom. But you probably could live without friends if you wanted to.

The Greeks and Romans seem to have been more comfortable with the idea of suicide than moderns. In their perspective, suicide would be a legitimate way out of pain. I agree that it is not precisely "enduring" pain.

I have no problem with suicide in itself. I'm totally in favour of legalised assisted suicide, including for children in extreme situations. I consider ban to be absolute evil... the slavery of our time. (That isn't to say that those who oppose legalisation are necessarily evil... but they do unknowingly support evil).

My point is that suicide isn't endurance. It's literally not enduring the pain. I have no problem with that... we just shouldn't call it something it's not.

Thanks for your reply! You've made several good points.

Tanks. :D
 
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