The four beasts

[Tyndale]

Hello fellow Calvinists. I've been reading through the eschatology section for similar threads and there's such a varied difference of opinion, it's virtually impossible to gain anything from them. So, I thought I would ask people with similar spiritual beliefs what your opinion on this subject is.

I've been interested in studying the four beasts mentioned in Rev 14 and 15 and Dan 7. for some time now. I'm a historicist in my view of Revelations, which doesn't take every word literally, views most of Revelations as history and only a portion of it remains to be fulfilled starting with Rev 18. I've heard it said that the four beast are the four gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and while reading the 'History of Protestantism' I began to see them again as the early church.

Firstly lets take a look at what Rev 14 + 15 says:

"And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth."

And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Now lets move to Daniel 7 for a more detailed description of these four beasts.

And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


Now according to Spurgeon and most other reformers Revelation 12 is about the battle between the Devil and the Church of God. Chapter 12 relates both to the seed of Eve in Genesis 3 and the seed of Mary in the Gospels. Taking into consideration that view of historicism, chapter 12 deals with the birth and shedding of Christ's blood so all other chapters should follow this event.

In 'The history of Protestantism' we see that Wylie has noted that the early church was split into four branches, He says in Chapter 2:

Proceeding in this fatal path, the next step was to form the external polity of the Church upon the model of the civil government. Four vice-kings or prefects governed the Roman Empire under Constantine, and why, it was asked, should not a similar arrangement be introduced into the Church? Accordingly the Christian world was divided into four great dioceses; over each diocese was set a patriarch, who governed the whole clergy of his domain, and thus arose four great thrones or princedoms in the House of God. Where there had been a brotherhood, there was now a hierarchy; and from the lofty chair of the Patriarch, a gradation of rank, and a subordination of authority and office, ran down to the lowly state and contracted sphere of the Presbyter [2]It was splendor of rank, rather than the fame of learning and the luster of virtue, that henceforward conferred distinction on the ministers of the Church.

At this period the Bishops of Rome wore costly attire, gave sumptuous banquets, and when they went abroad were carried in litters[5]They now began to speak with an authoritative voice, and to demand obedience from all the Churches. Of this the dispute between the Eastern and Western Churches respecting Easter is an instance in point. The Eastern Church, following the Jews, kept the feast on the 14th day of the month Nisan [6]— the day of the Jewish Passover. The Churches of the West, and especially that of Rome, kept Easter on the Sabbath following the 14th day of Nisan. Victor, Bishop of Rome, resolved to put an end to the controversy, and accordingly, sustaining himself sole judge in this weighty point, he commanded all the Churches to observe the feast on the same day with himself. The Churches of the East, not aware that the Bishop of Rome had authority to command their obedience in this or in any other matter, kept Easter as before; and for this flagrant contempt, as Victor accounted it, of his legitimate authority, he excommunicated them.[7]They refused to obey a human ordinance, and they were shut out from the kingdom of the Gospel.

Would you hold the historicist view concerning the Four Beasts? If not, what's you belief concerning John's visions?

 

[Iosias]

Would you hold the historicist view concerning the Four Beasts? If not, what's you belief concerning John's visions?

I would deny a futurist interpretation and so would be open to either an historicist or preterist view on this but since leaving the Plymouth Brethren it has not been a major issue for me I must confess.

BTW: have you read Gill on these verses? He was Spurgeon's predecessor. You can find his exegesis here. He was a premillennialist but not dispensational.

 

[heymikey80]

Why not the four creatures from the Throne in Ezekiel 1? I'm amil with tendencies to interpret more literally.

 

[Iosias]

Why not the four creatures from the Throne in Ezekiel 1? I'm amil with tendencies to interpret more literally.

Not a chance brother! Can the Cherubim say:

Rev 5:9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"

 

[fellowservant]

.

 

[MerCYsMIraCLe]

Not a chance brother! Can the Cherubim say:

Rev 5:9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"

very true

 

[Techservant]

I am Presbyterian and I was just wondering what bible (version) you are using. I think it is pretty cool and different from my bible.

 

[Iosias]

I am Presbyterian and I was just wondering what bible (version) you are using. I think it is pretty cool and different from my bible.

The King James Version otherwise known as the Authorized Version which was first published in 1611 (hence my username ).

 

[heymikey80]

Not a chance brother! Can the Cherubim say:

Rev 5:9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"

Not a chance, brother! That's why they sang:

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying,

"Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth."
​

The question is much dicier than whether the four creatures were ransomed. Did they even sing? When Scripture speaks to "the horsemen on their horses" and then says "they spoke", it doesn't mean the horses spoke.

There's even a question whether "us" really even belongs in v. 9.

Then there's the question whether the Four are actually part of this Creation -- in which case Christ is a ransom for the whole of Creation, so of course Christ is a ransom for their part of Creation as well.

 

[Iosias]

Not a chance, brother! That's why they sang:

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying,​

"Worthy are you to take the scroll​

and to open its seals,​

for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God​

from every tribe and language and people and nation, ​

and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,​

and they shall reign on the earth."​

The question is much dicier than whether the four creatures were ransomed. Did they even sing? When Scripture speaks to "the horsemen on their horses" and then says "they spoke", it doesn't mean the horses spoke.

There's even a question whether "us" really even belongs in v. 9.

Then there's the question whether the Four are actually part of this Creation -- in which case Christ is a ransom for the whole of Creation, so of course Christ is a ransom for their part of Creation as well.

The 24 elders along with the 4 living creatures sang the song.

May I suggest The Doctrine of the Cherubim Opened and Explained.

 

[JM]

Would you hold the historicist view concerning the Four Beasts? If not, what's you belief concerning John's visions?

I'm always looking at eschatology and found these links helpful.

Daniel's Four Beasts
An Exposition on Revelation by Knowles

Peace.

 

[heymikey80]

The 24 elders along with the 4 living creatures sang the song.

May I suggest The Doctrine of the Cherubim Opened and Explained.

I appreciate that's what you think is happening. But I've pointed out there's not a good reason to demand that's what's happening.

The level of effort the exposition is going to seems rather stretched. John identifies the Four Beings with a number of similar descriptions to that of Ezekiel. The Four Beings can't be mitigated into being something else; neither need the text require something other than what these Beings do.

 

[JM]

Hello fellow Calvinists. I've been reading through the eschatology section for similar threads and there's such a varied difference of opinion, it's virtually impossible to gain anything from them. So, I thought I would ask people with similar spiritual beliefs what your opinion on this subject is.

I've been interested in studying the four beasts mentioned in Rev 14 and 15 and Dan 7. for some time now. I'm a historicist in my view of Revelations, which doesn't take every word literally, views most of Revelations as history and only a portion of it remains to be fulfilled starting with Rev 18. I've heard it said that the four beast are the four gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and while reading the 'History of Protestantism' I began to see them again as the early church.

Firstly lets take a look at what Rev 14 + 15 says:

"And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth."

And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Now lets move to Daniel 7 for a more detailed description of these four beasts.

And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


Now according to Spurgeon and most other reformers Revelation 12 is about the battle between the Devil and the Church of God. Chapter 12 relates both to the seed of Eve in Genesis 3 and the seed of Mary in the Gospels. Taking into consideration that view of historicism, chapter 12 deals with the birth and shedding of Christ's blood so all other chapters should follow this event.

In 'The history of Protestantism' we see that Wylie has noted that the early church was split into four branches, He says in Chapter 2:





Would you hold the historicist view concerning the Four Beasts? If not, what's you belief concerning John's visions?

Yes, I would.