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The Flood

oddchild

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Has anyone researched the cultural stories of the flood?I have seen several different tales from various cultures with their own versions? Why is it that the stories have changed to such an extent. In China there are stories similar to that of the account in the Torah, however, in Africa and in other parts of the world there are accounts of a hill/mountain that the animals sought shelter in. Why are the stories conflicting?
 
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Jet Black

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oddchild said:
Has anyone researched the cultural stories of the flood?I have seen several different tales from various cultures with their own versions? Why is it that the stories have changed to such an extent. In China there are stories similar to that of the account in the Torah, however, in Africa and in other parts of the world there are accounts of a hill/mountain that the animals sought shelter in. Why are the stories conflicting?
because they all talk about different floods. There never was a global flood if that is what you are asking, that was falsified by evidence along time ago.
 
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Arikay

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What he said. :)

Water was a Very important aspect of civilization. Since modern water transport systems were not around then, people needed to live close to rivers or seas to get their water. The eqyptians even relied on yearly floodings to water crops.

Flood stories are so prominent, because many civilizations started by a water source, and the flooding of that source was either so important, or so catastrophic that it turned into a religious story.

The same can be seen with civilizations that started near volcanos. Often they had volcano gods.
 
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oddchild

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I highly suggest that you research his model of the flood. One cannot come to the conclusion that one answer is absolutly correct. By doing so we allow ourselves to become closeminded. If you find yourself capable of checkng out his book I would highly suggest it.

On a personal question, what do you yourself belive about creation?
 
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David Gould

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oddchild said:
I highly suggest that you research his model of the flood. One cannot come to the conclusion that one answer is absolutly correct. By doing so we allow ourselves to become closeminded. If you find yourself capable of checkng out his book I would highly suggest it.

On a personal question, what do you yourself belive about creation?
It seems to me that Carl Baugh is not given much credibilit in the Creationist community.

As to what I believe about Creation, Young Earth Creationism is nonsense - it has been falsified. As to whether God created or not, I am a weak atheist.
 
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oddchild

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Jet Black said:
no, but you can come to the conclusion that one answer is completely wrong.
To belive in the flood requires faith. Just as the resurrection does. If you seek proof for the flood you will find it. If you seek proof against it you will most likely find information to satisfy you too.
 
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Jet Black

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oddchild said:
To belive in the flood requires faith. Just as the resurrection does. If you seek proof for the flood you will find it. If you seek proof against it you will most likely find information to satisfy you too.
It is not just that, it is finding things that cannot be explained by the flood .... these are a problem, since true statements cannot have false consequences:

some flood problems:

Massive Volcanic events and earth impact catastrophies falsify young earth creationis

Biogeography falsifies the worldwide flood

Extensive salt deposits falsify the worldwide flood

Absurd YEC claims about the Coconino Sandstones.

Meat eaters and the worldwide flood myth

Insect diversity falsifies the flood myth

Fun with the Flood math.

Plants Falsify YEC Global Flood...
 
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Arikay

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So then the flood is not about science, but faith.

If you seek proof for the flood, you will only find false evidence for it, as there is no unfalsified evidence for a global flood.

Most of his evidence is PRATT List (Points Refuted A Thousand Times) material. That means that people have shown his evidence to be false, yet for some reason, he still uses it.

oddchild said:
To belive in the flood requires faith. Just as the resurrection does. If you seek proof for the flood you will find it. If you seek proof against it you will most likely find information to satisfy you too.
 
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Jet Black

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three more.

Coincidences?

Organization of Fossils

Early Egyptian Dynasties

these problems are just a drop in the ocean of millions of unexplainable problems with the flood model. Other things we have are problems with the hypetheses used to support the flood model, such as the hypothesis that the flood somehow affected radioactive decay rates, flood sorting, the massive amounts of macroevolution required "post flood" in the space of a few hundred years to produce all the biodiversity that we see today and so on.
 
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Arikay

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To add to what Jet has listed, here are a couple more flood things. Some of what Jet has posted may touch on the same things, but I figure ill post them anyway.

Creationism as Science
What we should expect to find if the creationist flood model was true. We have yet to find it (we have found things against it though).

Flood Models
A Couple flood models and the problems with them.




Jet Black said:
three more.

Coincidences?

Organization of Fossils

Early Egyptian Dynasties

these problems are just a drop in the ocean of millions of unexplainable problems with the flood model. Other things we have are problems with the hypetheses used to support the flood model, such as the hypothesis that the flood somehow affected radioactive decay rates, flood sorting, the massive amounts of macroevolution required "post flood" in the space of a few hundred years to produce all the biodiversity that we see today and so on.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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oddchild said:
Has anyone researched the cultural stories of the flood?I have seen several different tales from various cultures with their own versions? Why is it that the stories have changed to such an extent. In China there are stories similar to that of the account in the Torah, however, in Africa and in other parts of the world there are accounts of a hill/mountain that the animals sought shelter in. Why are the stories conflicting?
Talk origins has an extensive collection of flood stories from around the world

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html
Here are some from China
China The Supreme Sovereign ordered the water god Gong Gong to create a flood as punishment and warning for human misbehavior. Gong Gong extended the flood for 22 years, and people had to live in high mountain caves and in trees, fighting with wild animals for scarce resources. Unable to persuade the Supreme Sovereign to stop the flood, and told by an owl and a turkey about _Xirang_ or Growing Soil, the supernatural hero Gun stole Growing Soil from heaven to dam the waters. Before Gun was finished, however, the Supreme Sovereign sent the fire god Zhu Rong to execute him for his theft. The Growing Soil was taken back to heaven, and the floods continued. However, Gun's body didn't decay, and when it was cut apart three years later, his son Yu emerged in the form of a horned dragon. Gun's body also transformed into a dragon at that time and thenceforth lived quietly in the deeps. The Supreme Sovereign was fearful of Yu's power, so he cooperated and gave Yu the Growing Soil and the use of the dragon Ying. Yu led other gods to drive away Gong Gong, distributed the Growing Soil to remove most of the flood, and led the people to fashion rivers from Ying's tracks and thus channel the remaining floodwaters to the sea. [Walls, pp. 94-100] The goddess Nu Kua fought and defeated the chief of a neighboring tribe, driving him up a mountain. The chief, chagrined at being defeated by a woman, beat his head against the Heavenly Bamboo with the aim of wreaking vengeance on his enemies and killing himself. He knocked it down, tearing a hole in the sky. Floods poured out, inundating the world and killing everyone but Nu Kua and her army; her divinity made her and her followers safe from it. Nu Kua patched the hole with a plaster made from stones of five different colors, and the floods ceased. [Werner, p. 225; Vitaliano, p. 163]

<A id=Lisu name=Lisu>Lisu (northwest Yunnan, China, and neighboring areas): After death came into the world as a result of a macaque's curse, sky and earth longed for human souls and bones. That is how the flood began. An orphaned brother and sister lived in squalor in a village. A pair of golden birds flew down to them one day, warned them that a huge wave would flood the earth, and told them to take shelter in a gourd and not to come out until they heard the birds again. The two children warned their neighbors, but the people didn't believe them. The children sawed off the top of a gourd and went inside. For ninety-nine days, there was no wind or rain, and the earth became parched. Then torrents of rain fell, and the resulting flood washed everything away. The brother and sister occasionally could hear the gourd bump against the bottom of heaven. After long waiting, they heard the birds calling, left the gourd, and found they had landed atop a mountain, and the flood had receded. But now there were nine suns and seven moons in the sky, and they scorched the earth during the day. The two golden birds returned with a golden hammer and silver tongs and instructed the children how to use them to get the dragon king's bow and arrows. Brother and sister went to the dragon pond and struck the reef-home of the dragon king with the hammer. This raised such a racket that the dragon king sent his servants (various fish) to investigate. The children grabbed the fish with the tongs and threw them on the bank. At last, the dragon king himself came to investigate and had to give his bow and arrows when he was likewise caught. With these, brother and sister shot down all but the brightest sun and moon. Brother and sister then went in search of other people, exploring north and south respectively. They found nobody else, and the golden birds appeared again and urged them to marry. They refused, but the birds told them it was the will of heaven. After divinations in the form of several improbable events (tortoise shells landing a certain way, a broken millstone came together, and the brother shooting an arrow through a needle's eye--all happening three times), they consented. They had six sons and six daughters which traveled different directions and became the ancestors of different races. [L. Miller, pp. 78-84]

<A id=Lolo name=Lolo>Lolo (southwestern China): In primeval times, men were wicked. The patriarch Tse-gu-dzih sent a messenger down to earth, asking for some flesh and blood from a mortal. Only one man, Du-mu, complied. In wrath, Tse-gu-dzih locked the rain-gates, and the waters mounted to the sky. Du-mu was saved in a log hollowed out of a Pieris tree, together with his four sons and otters, wild ducks, and lampreys. The civilized peoples who can write are descended from the sons; the ignorant races are descendants of wooden figures whom Du-mu constructed after the deluge. [Gaster, pp. 99-100]

<A id=Jino name=Jino>Jino (southern Yunnan, China, near Mekong R.): From the time of creation, people's lives were happy and peaceful, but one year a great flood came. The parents of Mahei and Maniu, twin brother and sister, felled a big tree, hollowed it out, and covered both ends with cowhide. They attached brass bells to the outside, and inside they put grain and seed, the two children, and a knife and cake of beeswax. They instructed the children not to come out until the flood had gone down. The flood came, and the children floated for an undeterminable period. Mahei got impatient and cut a small hole with the knife. He saw muddy waves surging and dead bodies everywhere, and he closed the hole with wax. Later, Maniu cut a hole and saw nothing but water; she likewise filled the hole. Finally, they heard the bells ringing, indicating they had touched ground, and they left the drum. They were the only survivors. When they got old, they realized that there would be no people left if they died. Mahei suggested marriage, but his sister was ashamed to marry her brother. Mahei suggested she consult the magic tree. Maniu went there, but Mahei took a shortcut and hid behind the tree. Disguising his voice, he answered Maniu that she should marry her brother. They did so, but by then they were too old to have children. The sole gourd seed they had carried in the wooden drum had grown profusely, and although most of the fruits dried and rotted, one stayed ripe. They had hung it in their shed. One day, they heard faint voices coming from the gourd. They heated their fire tongs red hot to burn a hole in the gourd, but each time they tried, a voice said "Don't burn me!" Finally, one voice, calling herself Grandma Apierer, said to burn her or none could get out. They burnt a hole in the navel on the gourd's bottom. First out was Apo, ancestor of the Konge people; his skin was darkened by the soot around the hole. The next out, in order, were Han, Dai, and last of all Jino (which literally means "last squeeze"); they became ancestors of their people. Since then, rice offerings have been made to Apierer, who gave her life so that the Jino might live. [L. Miller, pp. 68-73]

If there are NOW flood stories in China similar to the Noah story it is probably the result of Christian missionaries telling the story there.

YECs try to say that the fact that flood stories are widespread is some evidence that the flood of Noah was global. Look at the great diversity of flood stories and explain how so many different stories exist if everyone on earth is recently descended from the sons of Noah. Why don't ALL flood stories have everyone and all animals saved by one family in a big boat if everyone is descended from the surivors of one family who loaded all the animals in a big boat a few thousand years ago? Why do only a relative few remember the story "correctly".

Rather than being evidence for the flood of Noah as a global flood the wide diversity of flood stories is yet another in a long line of falsifications of the claim that eveyone on earth is descended from the sons of one man who all survived such a flood together.

The Frumious Bandersnatch
 
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Mike Flynn

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Jet Black said:
many ancient cultures based themselves around the most fertile land, which was often on flood plains. so it is unsuprising that all of these cultures will have experienced extreme floods from time to time.

Thats a good point. Ancient civilizations would have economies based primarily on agriculture...settling in fertile river valleys, etc. Floods would have been disastrous and I'm sure the literature embodies catastrophic fear.
 
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