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The Flood -

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KCDAD

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Mailman Dan said:
Matthew 24:38
For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

That Jesus would refer to a common folk tale known in almost every culture is not surprising... what is surprising is that God would destroy all of mankind (save Noah and his family) for whatever evil they might have been doing, and then for the next 5000 years or so, allowed the same behavior to go unabated. Could those sinners have been any worse than any of us?

kcdad----> agrees with Mailman Dan that the whole Bible is meaningful and valid... but it's just not all factual.
 
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Mailman Dan

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kcdad----> agrees with Mailman Dan that the whole Bible is meaningful and valid... but it's just not all factual.

Its Trutheyness!


For example, Jesus said if your eye causes you to sin, cut it out. It was better to enter into heaven with 1 eye, than have both in hell. No one has done that, nor should they. However, the point was made that sin was that serious in God's sight.... He wants you not to cut out your eyes, but to stop sinning.

what is surprising is that God would destroy all of mankind (save Noah and his family) for whatever evil they might have been doing, and then for the next 5000 years or so, allowed the same behavior to go unabated. Could those sinners have been any worse than any of us?

Thats why so many "fundies" like myself, believe the future judgements told in scripture are valid. Its in keeping with God's wrath, which can simply be avoided if we listened to Him.

Dan~~~>glad God has put up with him for so long
 
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non-religious

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[Mailman Dan]
Thats why so many "fundies" like myself, believe the future judgements told in scripture are valid. Its in keeping with God's wrath, which can simply be avoided if we listened to Him.
But why would you serve a God like that? I fully appreciate and respect you're stance and it's something that I genuingly have an admiration for, becos I know I couldn't pin my whole being (spirit, flesh, emotions, intellect, rationale etc..) on a book of claims that cannot be absolutely verified as factual. Blind faith is not enough, surely? What makes you so sure these accounts actually took place? Without wanting to be in any way condescending or patronising, have you just convinced yourself that it has to be true based upon you're own human, natural reasoning as a result of fear?
 
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TScott

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KCDAD said:
If you read Gilgamesh, you will see there are very few similiarities between the two tales... water, a boat, animals... that, they have in common. The Enuma Elish is another interesting tale from pre-Hebrew times. They are both rather short... and weird.
Actually KCDAD I have read the Gilgamesh many times, and the Enuma Elish (When on High) as well, as you say, they are not long. I would find it hard to believe that anyone who has read both the Gilgamesh account of the flood and the account in Genesis could come away without seeing that the Genesis account has taken almost verbatem from the Gilgamesh. Or it is also possible that both the Gilgamesh and the Genesis story were both taken from some other myth.

I would take the time to post the similarities, as I have on other occasions, but as then I am sure they would be ignored. Let me just say to whoever is interested, read Tablet XI of the Gilgamesh, it is the one that deals with the flood and it can be found in many places online, and compare it with the story of Noah in Genesis.
 
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TScott

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Mailman Dan said:
So what do you want to cut out of scripture?


Dan~~~>holds the whole bible as meaningfull and valid
I wouldn't remove a bit of it. It is all there for a purpose. That is the way ancient scripture is. That doesn't mean that I believe that it is truly historic, just that it was written the way it was written for a purpose. In the Genesis account, I believe the stories are familiar to the audience: the Sumerian and Babylonian peoples. The purpose being to illustrate man's relationship with God.
 
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Mailman Dan

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But why would you serve a God like that? I fully appreciate and respect you're stance and it's something that I genuingly have an admiration for, becos I know I couldn't pin my whole being (spirit, flesh, emotions, intellect, rationale etc..) on a book of claims that cannot be absolutely verified as factual. Blind faith is not enough, surely? What makes you so sure these accounts actually took place? Without wanting to be in any way condescending or patronising, have you just convinced yourself that it has to be true based upon you're own human, natural reasoning as a result of fear?

Why would a serve a God like that?

Think about it, do you believe God is good? If God is good, do you think He should punish evil? If a good God sees a world thats killing each other, (among the other 9 commandments) should He step in?

God is loving, and kind, and gives people time to repent. (turn) But God does promise to bring every evil deed to justice. If He is good, the He has too. Its the nature of good to punish evil.

We have good reason to fear God. Thats not just scripture, its reason. If God is an absolute truth, that is absolute good, then He will excute absolute justice, just as the bible records in the past, and states will happen again as men turn against God.

It's good to see that you watch something else on TV that's not on the religious broadcasting channel (or Fox).

I don't care for TBN. (Total Blasphemy Network) But Fox has the Simpsons....

I do watch Steven and John from time to time. Sometimes they go way to left, or right, but it's still kind of funny....


Dan~~~>can't stand that stupid American Idol show:p
 
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Chrysalis Kat

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Mailman Dan said:
I don't care for TBN. (Total Blasphemy Network) But Fox has the Simpsons....
Thanks, I couldn't think of the name but I like this!
(I meant the Faux News Network not the entertainment one)

I do watch Steven and John from time to time. Sometimes they go way to left, or right, but it's still kind of funny....
Dan~~~>can't stand that stupid American Idol show:p
:thumbsup:
See there, and you didn't think we had that much common!:D
 
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KCDAD

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TScott said:
I would find it hard to believe that anyone who has read both the Gilgamesh account of the flood and the account in Genesis could come away without seeing that the Genesis account has taken almost verbatem from the Gilgamesh.

See, there you go... who'd have thunk it? When I read them in an Old Testament Survey class under Rabbi Jay Holstsein at University of Iowa, I was struck that there were so many differences, other than the idea of a flood itself, how did anyone compare them? The purpose of the flood, how the "hero" was selected, how the flood occurred, the temperment of the god(s)...

Obviously if there were a flood the natural response is build a boat, if you are on a boat you would either send fish (and they wouldn't likely come back) or birds out to see if it were safe... you would off er some great sacrifice... those similiarities I do not see as plagiarism, but obvious elements of the plot. The boat would have to be built with pitch to seal the wood... again, what would be the alternative... silly putty? Animals would have to be saved, otherwise... where are they?
Not that I think I am right... it's interesting how you see the similiarities and I see the differences... half full, half empty?
 
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TScott

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KCDAD said:
See, there you go... who'd have thunk it? When I read them in an Old Testament Survey class under Rabbi Jay Holstsein at University of Iowa, I was struck that there were so many differences, other than the idea of a flood itself, how did anyone compare them? The purpose of the flood, how the "hero" was selected, how the flood occurred, the temperment of the god(s)...

Obviously if there were a flood the natural response is build a boat, if you are on a boat you would either send fish (and they wouldn't likely come back) or birds out to see if it were safe... you would off er some great sacrifice... those similiarities I do not see as plagiarism, but obvious elements of the plot. The boat would have to be built with pitch to seal the wood... again, what would be the alternative... silly putty? Animals would have to be saved, otherwise... where are they?
Not that I think I am right... it's interesting how you see the similiarities and I see the differences... half full, half empty?
It's hard to believe that Rabbi Holstsein (sic) would have given such a superficial analysis, but then you didn't say he did, did you?

Here are the similarities I find striking, and you touched upon it, yet only superficially. Try instead of just looking at this bit situationally, look at it in the form in which it is written in the poem.

Genesis, ch 8:
7. And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.

8. Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground;

9. But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

10. And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;

11. And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.

12. And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove
; which returned not again unto him any more.

Then from the Gilgamesh:

When a seventh day arrived
I sent forth a dove and released it.
The dove went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.

I sent forth a swallow and released it.
The swallow went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.

I sent forth a raven and released it.
The raven went off, and saw the waters slither back.
It eats, it scratches, it bobs, but does not circle back to me.
 
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KCDAD

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TScott said:
Try instead of just looking at this bit situationally, look at it in the form in which it is written in the poem.

Since I read neither Hebrew or Babylonian, how can I appreciate the poetry which is obviously a translation?

OK, the translators were both poets...:thumbsup:
 
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Mailman Dan

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Why would anyone serve a God that allowed American Idol to stay on TV?

Now maybe you understand why God promised to destroy the world....



BTW, American Idol is proof hell is eternal. That stupid show won't end...



Dan~~~>hates hearing about it at work the next day too
 
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TScott

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KCDAD said:
The form of what? You got a readable original sheepskin or papyrus Genesis or Epic of Gilgamesh?
I think it's best that you just go on believing what you believe. You just need to understand that when you say things like this:
See, there you go... who'd have thunk it? When I read them in an Old Testament Survey class under Rabbi Jay Holstsein at University of Iowa...
... it seems somewhat pretentious of you to think that it gives your view any special authority, which could be the only possible reason you would bring it up.
 
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KCDAD

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TScott said:
I think it's best that you just go on believing what you believe. You just need to understand that when you say things like this:... it seems somewhat pretentious of you to think that it gives your view any special authority, which could be the only possible reason you would bring it up.

Pretentious? I apologise. I was citing my source. I figure a Rabbi instructing on Old Testament literature would be a credible source.
 
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