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The Flood

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California Tim

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Vance said:
The fact that it could have been a global flood within the last 10,000 years is just not really an option.
^_^ ^_^ Sure.... I noticed how you simply dismiss the possibility altogether. You don't express doubt, you don't suggest God could have, but it conflicts with modern scientific conclusions. Nope - you go straight to the point - GOD COULD NOT HAVE DONE IT. Why is that?
 
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The Lady Kate

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California Tim said:
^_^ ^_^ Sure.... I noticed how you simply dismiss the possibility altogether. You don't express doubt, you don't suggest God could have, but it conflicts with modern scientific conclusions. Nope - you go straight to the point - GOD COULD NOT HAVE DONE IT. Why is that?

Because if God did do it, He then not only hid every last piece of evidence that would show that He did it, but planted a planetload of false evidence to make it look like He did it a totally different way.

My God couldn't have done it because my God can't lie.
 
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California Tim

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The Lady Kate said:
Because if God did do it, He then not only hid every last piece of evidence that would show that He did it, but planted a planetload of false evidence to make it look like He did it a totally different way.

My God couldn't have done it because my God can't lie.
So whenever a supernatural event took place, it was to have left evidence of such? Anyway .. just dismiss that question. The fact is the evidence is in plain view supporting the WORLDWIDE flood. It is simply ignored or reinterpreted with an agenda to harmonize with a presumed evolutionary scale.
 
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Vance

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Of course God could have done it. That has never been the issue. And, no, not every supernatural event has to leave behind specific evidence. In fact, most don't. The point with the flood is that it is virtually impossible for two evidentiary reasons, which have been fully laid out in these forums, and which we have been discussing in various threads.

First, there IS evidence which would not be there if a global flood had occured within that time.

Second, there is a lack of the evidence which WOULD be there if the flood had occurred.

These two add up so strongly that the ONLY people who believe in a global flood within the last 10,000 years are those who are theologically committed to such an idea due to their reading of Scripture. What is telling is that even a large number of those who read Scripture as literal history (such as Glenn and JohnR7, on this forum alone) STILL reject a recent global flood.
 
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The Lady Kate

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California Tim said:
So whenever a supernatural event took place, it was to have left evidence of such?

Where else in the Bible did God perform a miracle and then hide it?

Anyway .. just dismiss that question. The fact is the evidence is in plain view supporting the WORLDWIDE flood.

"Evidence in plain view?" Such as...?

It is simply ignored or reinterpreted with an agenda to harmonize with a presumed evolutionary scale.

So it's a conspiracy? By whom?
 
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Vance

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Just to be nit-picky, there can be supernatural events for which there is no remaining evidence, such as Jesus' miracles. This is different than the flood situation. I think what Kate means by "hiding it" is not simply the lack of information, but the lack of information when the supernatural event in question is one in which there WOULD be remaining evidence. Like a global flood just a few thousand years ago.
 
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The Lady Kate

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Vance said:
Just to be nit-picky, there can be supernatural events for which there is no remaining evidence, such as Jesus' miracles. This is different than the flood situation. I think what Kate means by "hiding it" is not simply the lack of information, but the lack of information when the supernatural event in question is one in which there WOULD be remaining evidence. Like a global flood just a few thousand years ago.

What I was trying to say was that if CT wants to write up the Flood as a "supernatural event"/miracle, then why go through all the trouble to make it look natural? Every other miracle in the Bible, there's no doubt about it...

It would be like Jesus offering to feed the multitudes with the loaves and fishes... "But first, everyone has to close their eyes.... and I know you'll hear something that sounds like cartloads of food being rolled in.... ignore that, it's just part of the miracle...."

Looking back at my post, I think Vance said it better than I did... :sorry:
 
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88Devin07

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I don't know if it has been brought up before but...

It is actually entirely possible for a Flood to have happened.

Many many religions/people in the world, old Babylonian, Egyptian, Hindu, Greek, Chinese, Druids, Polynesians, Mexicans, Peruvians, American Indians, etc... Have traditions of a flood, several, like the Babylonians, Polynesians, American Indians, all say that 7-8 people were saved in the flood...
Not only this, but the Babylonians and Greeks have nearly the same traditions as we do.

Here are the nations that all believe in something like the flood occuring to "purify" the Earth:
Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Persians, Hindus, Greeks, Chinese, Phrygians, Figi Islanders, Equimaux, Aboriginal Americans, Indians, Brazilians, Peruvians, etc... (from Haley's Bible Handbook)

Also, many flood deposites have been found at ancient cities like Ur, Fara, Kish, and Nineveh.

These flood deposites are all yellow dirt mixed with sand and clay, about 8ft-10ft thick below the (known) post-flood ruins of the city.

Scientists have said, that the only thing that could have done this, (since all the deposites are as old as one another) is a flood of biblical proportions. And over a time of nearly exactly the amount of days the Earth was flooded according to the Bible...

Also, the ruins underneath the deposite and the ones above it, are vastly different, the ones below seem to be much less advanced than the layer immediately above.

You also must remember, that Adam would have told Methuselah, Methuselah would have told Noah, Noah would have told Abraham's father, Shem would have told Abraham, and of course, Abraham, would have passed it down on to his people and decendants.

I believe that not only is the Bible correct because it is the insipired word of God, but also because it is backed up by science and archeology.
 
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keyarch

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Scriptural definitions relating to the flood of Noah’s time.



Jr#a*h*^= THE earth, the globe, the world. h*^ = definite article. (Genesis 1:1) haa'aarets

Jr#a#= earth, dry land out of the water, the continents. (Genesis 1:10)'erets

Jr#a*B* = in earth, in the land. B* = in or on. (Genesis 6:5) baa'aarets

Jr#a#m@W= and from the land, W = and, m = from. (Genesis 24:7 )uwmee'erets

hm*d*a&h= THE ground, soil. (Genesis 2:5)haa'ªdaamaah

hb*r*j*B#= on dry ground. (Genesis 7:22)bechaaraabaah

x!r+a^= country. ;x=r+a^m= from thy country, m = from, ; = thy. (Genesis 12:1)mee'artsªkaa

yx!r+a^= my country. y = my. (Genesis 24:4)'artsiy

hx*r+a= toward country. h = toward(Genesis 20:1) 'artsaah
<y]m^V*h = THE heaven, upper heaven - from the bottom of the clouds out into space. (Genesis 1:1) hashaamayim

<y]m*v)*) = heaven, lower heaven - from the sea up to the bottom of the clouds. (Genesis 1:8)shaamayim


The following passages are taken from the KJV of the Bible with the actual Hebrew script of the above terms and their definitions in parenthesis after. The underlining and color coding are my emphasis.

Gen 6:5-6
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth (Jr#a*B* in the land), and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth(Jr#a*Bon the land), and it grieved him at his heart.

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the ground (hm*d*a&h ground);

Gen 6:12-13
And God looked upon the earth (Jr#a*h world), and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth(Jr#a*h world). And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth (Jr#a*h world) is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth (Jr#a*h world).

Gen 6:17And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth (Jr#a*h world), to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven (<y]m^V*h upper heaven); and every thing that is in the earth(Jr#a*B* in the land) shall die.

Gen 6:20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth (hm*d*a&hground) after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

Gen 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth (Jr#a*h world).

Gen 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth (Jr#a*h world) forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth (hm*d*a&hground).

Gen 7:6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth (Jr#a*h world).

Gen 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, (hm*d*a&hground) ..

Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth (Jr#a*h world).

Gen 7:12And the rain was upon the earth(Jr#a*h world) forty days and forty nights.

Gen 7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth(Jr#a*h world) after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth (Jr#a*h world); and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth (Jr#a*h world).

Gen 7:18-24 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth (Jr#a*h world); and the ark went upon the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth (Jr#a*h world); and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven (<y]m^V*h upper heaven), were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. And all flesh died that moved upon the earth(Jr#a*h world), both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth(Jr#a*h world), and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land (hb*r*j*B dry ground), died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground (hm*d*a&hground), both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth (Jr#a*h world): and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. And the waters prevailed upon the earth (Jr#a*h world) an hundred and fifty days.

Gen 8:1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth (Jr#a*h world), and the waters asswaged;

Gen 8:3 And the waters returned from off the earth (Jr#a*h world) continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.

Gen 8:7-9 And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth (Jr#a*h world). Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground(hm*d*a&hground); But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth (Jr#a*h world): then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

Gen 8:11-14 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth(Jr#a*h world). And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more. And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth (Jr#a*h world): and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground (hm*d*a&hground) was dry. And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth (Jr#a*h world) dried.

Gen 8:17-19 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth (Jr#a*h world); that they may breed abundantly in the earth (Jr#a*Bon the land), and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth (Jr#a*h world). And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him: Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth (Jr#a*h world), after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.

Gen 9:15-17 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth (Jr#a*h world). And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth (Jr#a*h world).


Conclusion:
I think that its abundantly clear that the message we are supposed to get from the above text is that God wanted to wipe out everything that moved on the face of the earth (nothing is mentioned about the sea creatures), and that He caused a global flood to accomplish this. That He preserved the seeds of all the “kinds” of flesh and creeping thing on the Ark so as to renew the earth after the flood. There are some who want to disprove the idea of a global flood for “scientific” reasons, but this expose’ is an attempt to show what the scripture actually says independent of such “science”.

The Bible goes to great lengths to establish the genealogy from Adam to Noah as real people in real time. It takes us thru a historical account of what Noah went thru to prepare for the flood; why He would do it; the way in which He accomplished it; how long it was; where Noah landed and the creatures on the ark dispersed from to replenish the earth etc. It does not make any sense if this was just a fictional story or the account of a local flood to contain the type of language and detail that it does, especially as the inspired Word of God. If we can’t read this and trust that it’s an actual historical account, then what can we trust in the book of Genesis. Without the foundations of Genesis, the whole Bible comes into question.

I’m sure that there are many cultures all over the world that have their own version of a flood story. Most likely, many predate the writings of Genesis. That makes total sense from the perspective that every generation that proceeded from Noah and his children would have been handed down a version of this account. No doubt as they dispersed into various parts of the world after
Babel with their different languages and religions that the story was changed over time. Even so, that takes nothing away from God giving the true inspired literal account to the writer of Genesis and that Jesus endorsed this version.
 
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Vance

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This is the part where we disagree:
"It does not make any sense if this was just a fictional story or the account of a local flood to contain the type of language and detail that it does, especially as the inspired Word of God. If we can’t read this and trust that it’s an actual historical account, then what can we trust in the book of Genesis. Without the foundations of Genesis, the whole Bible comes into question."

First of all, many mythological accounts get VERY detailed in their descriptions, even though they know it is not true history, so the level of detail is not conclusive. Second, the fact that it is inspired does not require the text to be read as historically literal. Again C.S. Lewis is insightful on this:

"
I have therefore no difficulty in accepting, say, the view of those scholars who tell us that the account of Creation in Genesis is derived from earlier Semitic stories which were Pagan and mythical. We must of course be quite clear what "derived from" means. Stories do not reproduce their species like mice. They are told by men. Each re-teller either repeats exactly what his predecessor had told him or else changes it. He may change it unknowingly or deliberately. If he changes it deliberately, his invention, his sense of form, his ethics, his ideas of what is fit, or edifying, or merely interesting, all come in. If unknowingly, then his unconscious (which is so largely responsible for our forgettings) has been at work. Thus at every step in what is called--a little misleadingly--the "evolution" of a story, a man, all he is and all his attitudes, are involved. And no good work is done anywhere without aid from the Father of Lights. When a series of such retellings turns a creation story which at first had almost no religious or metaphysical significance into a story which achieves the idea of true Creation and of a transcendent Creator (as Genesis does), then nothing will make me believe that some of the re-tellers, or some one of them, has not been guided by God.

Thus something originally merely natural--the kind of myth that is found amongst most nations--will have been raised by God above itself, qualified by Him and compelled by Him to serve purposes which of itself would not have served. Generalising this, I take it that the whole Old Testament consists of the same sort of material as any other literature--chronicle (some of it obviously pretty accurate), poems, moral and political diatribes, romances, and what not; but all taken into the service of Gods word. Not all, I suppose, in the same way. There are prophets who write with the clearest awareness that Divine compulsion is upon them. There are chroniclers whose intention may have been merely to record. There are poets like those in the Song of Songs who probably never dreamed of any but a secular and natural purpose in what they composed. There is (and it is not less important) the work first of the Jewish and then of the Christian Church in preserving and canonising just these books. There is the work of redactors and editors in modifying them. On all of these I suppose a Divine pressure; of which not by any means all need have been conscious."
C. S. Lewis, Reflections on the Psalms (New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1958), 109

God can use the fictional, or semi-fictional, to convey absolute truth.

You then use the slippery slope argument to say that we MUST accept it as literal, because to fail to do so calls the rest of Scripture into question. This is fallacious reasoning. We must consider each text on its own. Do we doubt the historicity of the Gospels because we treat Job as non-historical, or read parables as non-historical, or see figurative meaning in Song of Solomon? No, we must take each text on its own and consider the degree to which it should be taken as literal history or whether the absolute and holy truths are being conveyed through texts which are not literal history?

It must be remembered that, whether we read some of the texts of Genesis as non-historical or all of it as literal history, there are still "issues" either way. With the non-historical, we have to consider the issue of the genealogies (which I have dealt with elsewhere). With a literal reading, we would have to deal with the Cain issue, the two Creation account issue, etc. Even excluding the evidence of God's Creation itself, we must resolve these issues and, thus, exegesis and interpretation are in order.

Personally, even before I ever considered the evidence from God's Creation, I had come to the tentative conclusion that the non-historical reading of portions of Genesis was most likely correct, having considered all these issues, the style of the text itself, etc. The weight of the evidence from God's Creation simply reinforced that belief.
 
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keyarch

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Vance said:
With a literal reading, we would have to deal with the Cain issue, the two Creation account issue, etc. Even excluding the evidence of God's Creation itself, we must resolve these issues and, thus, exegesis and interpretation are in order.
If Mr. Lewis had lived in a different time and/or a longer life, he may have had different things to say.

I haven't followed your issues with Cain nor agree that there are "two" creation accounts. If you don't feel they're appropriate to repeat here, feel free to PM me, as I am curious what you feel needs to be resolved.

I know that you have done a lot of Biblical History study and are quite knowledgeable and I respect that, even if I don't have the same views. I think the key thing is to start with the right creation/origin model which should have NO conflicts if it is the truth. If there are ANY conflicts, then the model is not correct, because there IS an ABSOLUTE truth about our history. I think our goal as fellow Christians is to put our heads together and figure out from Scripture AND God's general revelation what that truth is so that we can witness to the world in an accurate way and not look like fools.
 
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SBG

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Vance said:
When was the last time a flood wiped out every living creature in that area?

Genesis 8:21
"When the Lord smelled the pleasing odor [a scent of satisfaction to His heart], the Lord said to Himself, I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the imagination (the strong desire) of man's heart is evil and wicked from his youth; neither will I ever again smite and destroy every living thing, as I have done."

Notice this is a two part promise. One was destroying every living thing, and the other was cursing the ground because of man. This curse was brought about by a flood. You claim a local, I claim a global. There has not been a global flood, but there have been local floods since then that have done damage to the area.

It is your prerogative to reason scripture away, but it still says what it says.
 
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SBG

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Vance said:
With a literal reading, we would have to deal with the Cain issue, the two Creation account issue, etc. Even excluding the evidence of God's Creation itself, we must resolve these issues and, thus, exegesis and interpretation are in order.

The bold emphasis is mine and I would be happy to debate you on this particular subject. You prove with scripture that there are two accounts and I will show that there is one account.

Let me know if you are interested.
 
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Vance

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SBG, we can indeed review the two creation accounts and the Cain issue in new threads if you like (although I am going out of town for the weekend, so it may be a while before I can discuss it, although others here are more than qualified to present the view that I hold). But it should be said that I agree completely with one important point you made: there can ultimately be no conflicts in Scripture. There, indeed, IS a an objective truth and an objective history. There is no doubt about this point.

So, when there is a seeming conflict in the Scripture, or between a particular reading of Scripture and God's Creation, that conflict is just that: seeming. So, when we see a seeming conflict, we should determine how it is NOT, ultimately, a conflict. For those who hold to historical literalism, that involves, it must be acknowledged, a great deal of interpretive gymnastics to force an agreement. And, eventually, with enough effort and a willingness to accept such a conclusion, many such "workarounds" have been found which can do just that.

But the other approach to resolving the conflict is to question whether the solution is simply that one or both of the sides of the conflicting texts was not meant to be read as literal history. When a Biblical literalist looks at the two creation accounts (or two accounts of creation, if you prefer), the first starting in Genesis 1:1 and the other starting in Genesis 2:4, they have to acknowledge the "seeming" conflict between the order of creation and numerous details. There have, indeed, been a number of workarounds to explain these issues, but it IS an issue, and it had to be addressed.

The other approach to resolving this conflict is to simply accept that they were not meant to be read as strict history. One who is comfortable with a non-historical reading of these ancient texts actually has no problem at all with the seeming conflicts in the details, since those details are only of an historical nature, not a theological nature. The truths presented by God are still exactly the same, still JUST as true. God is God, God created everything, God created Man in His image, God wanted Man to have full communion with Him, but Man has fallen in sin due to selfishness, so man is in need of redemption. None of these are affected at all by the text not being historical. God tells me these things are true, and I believe it. He could have told me them any way He liked, and I would still believe it.

The Cain issue, btw, is the old "who did Cain marry" and "who was he afriad of" and "who occupied his city" when compared against a strictly literal genealogy issues. There has developed standard responses within literalism, but they have tended only to be convincing to those who either wanted to be convinced or were so tied to the literalist chronology that they HAD to believe them. Again, for the non-literalist, the process of reconciliation of these texts is simply to either view them less historically literal, or more historically incomplete (God did not tell us EVERYTHING that went on).

But we can discuss these separately. The point is that, in the end, it is necessary to see that the Scripture is never "mistaken" or incorrect. It never says something which is false. The question is whether something that seems on first reading (or 100th reading) by our modern minds to be simple history was really meant as such, written as such and read by the ancient Hebrews as such.
 
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SBG

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Anytime you prefer. I will also be out of town this weekend. :) Let me know when you would like to debate this by PM and I would be happy to have the discussion with you.

I believe if we are to debate the 'two' accounts of creation and the Cain issue, we should do so in seperate threads.

Anyways have a safe weekend and let me know when you would like to discuss this.
 
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88Devin07

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I learned about evolution of course, in school and I know a lot about creationism, since that is my belief.

However I seem to be like other youth's these days, and see similarities in scientific theories/facts and the Bible...

It is entirely possible that the Big Bang happened, but God is the one that caused it and orchistrated every thing in the process.

Humans do evolve over time, but not in the ways that some people may suggest. We didn't ever come from Apes, just like Penguins never came from Eagles. However our bodies develop to our enviornment over time. Some people in hotter areas like Africa have darker skin, people in cooler, more urban areas are whiter in tint.
Originally all of our ancestors were 1 color, and it is what you see in people in the Middle East today.
Of course, like I said, I refuse to believe that we came from apes, because of 1 reason. God created us, he made us just like he made the animals, (in structural terms) if animals have stomachs, legs, brains, hearts, etc... why shouldn't we? We are similar to animals, but aren't related to other animals. Like God, we are unique. We were made in God's image, yet we are still humans, people of the Earth (until you become a believer in God), animals, we have free will and the ability to sin. We have insticts, however, unlike other animals, we can control ourselves and we can either reject the world and embrace the Lord or reject the Lord and idolize the things of the earth.

I only believe in something if it is in agreement with scripture. Like the idea of Pangea, the Big Bang, and that it (In my opinion) wasn't 6 actual days, but 6 seperate periods of creation.
 
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