• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Flood

Status
Not open for further replies.

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Here is a thread dealing with the impossibility of their having been a worldwide flood within the last 10,000 years. None of these issues have really been addressed adequately by any YEC, but if any YEC here would like to give it a go, feel free. If not, it is at least educational regarding the issues involved:


http://www.christianforums.com/t95378
 

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But that simply dodges the question AND begs the question at the same time. Very athletic of you. The question is not just what the Bible says, but how it is meant to be read. I also say the same thing:

The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it.

To me, it is very clearly telling a figurative story to convey truths about God and His relationship with Mankind. That is what it says, I believe it and that settles it.

Now, which of these interpretation is correct?

Maybe the evidence provided in those threads can give us a clue . . .

But I don't expect to see mhess making even the slightest attempt to address the issues raised. Yet, some YEC's do not just stick their head in the sand and say "la, la, la, I can't hear you!" when faced with the evidence (those types of YEC's are not even worth discussing the matter with), they actually assert that the evidence is in FAVOR of a recent worldwide flood.

So, for THOSE YECs, here is the evidence, from a wide variety of fields of discipline. Your job is to either show that the evidence is false, or that the conclusion drawn from the evidence is faulty. And, the problem is that they must all be addressed because even ONE falsification is sufficient to destroy a global flood, and there are many, many there.

But we have time.
 
Upvote 0

ptgd1st

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2005
436
19
44
California
✟23,179.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The way i see it is that the Flood happened. We have numerous accounts from many different nations and many different beliefs stating there was a worldwide flood. There are hundreds. The characters and the specifics may be different but how could so many people be wrong.
 
Upvote 0

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Do you think all those stories developed independantly? Think about it. How could they have?

No, the one that share so many common details are because they derive out of the same early epic, the Sumerian flood narrative. Sumer = Abraham = Hebrews = Genesis.

The Sumerian flood narrative is found in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Do you think everything in the Epic of Gilgamesh is literal history?
 
Upvote 0

California Tim

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2004
869
63
62
Left Coast
✟23,854.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Angular unconformities

First, for those unfamiliar with angular unconformities, the observable facts:
"The sedimentary rocks, which were originally deposited horizontally in accordance with the Law of Original Horizontality have been deformed by structural forces, tectonics, uplift, and then erosion has taken over, truncated and cut off the edges. Later, the seas return and new layers were deposited on top.​
Now one must identify what evolutionists claim the significance of angular unconformities is?
"So the implications of angular unconformity is that there has been a great time lapse between the original deposition and the subsequent deposition."​

While reading extensively on this topic, mostly from the evolutionist point of view, one theme resonates over and over. There is not enough time to account for the original layers and subsequent erosion prior to deposition of sediment on top of the "unconformities" thus "proving" that there was no recent flood. In order for this theory to stand, a few things must be presumed:
Plate tectonics are a constant (uniformitarianism)
In the event of a worldwide flood, hydroaction is consistent worldwide
The bulk of the water was deposited by atmospheric condensation
Very little geologic change has occurred since the flood
The original layers in the angular unconformities were supposedly layed down by the same flood that deposited layers on top of them​
There may be more, but for the sake of brevity, I will jump right into what the Bible says happened, to see if it is supported by the evidence:

The Biblical Account of the Flood
(Gen 7:11 said:
...on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.

The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered. The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered

I have highlighted three issues the Bible directly addresses: fountains of the deep "broken up" indicating a cataclysmic event on the crust of the earth, waters prevailing "exceedingly" on the earth , indicating enormous potential for erosion and deposition and finally, all the mountains covered by water.

Do the facts .... does the evidence support this? YES! YES! and YES! With the possibility of a literal translation of the flood account, taking into consideration the "fountains of the deep" having "broken up" we would expect to see some dramatic evidence of such. Ironically the existence of angular unconformities SUPPORTS this possiblity. The original deposition could easily be explained in the original creation as earth was described in "chaos". The massive amount of erosion required by "excessively prevailing water" is not only present and consistent with the flood, but is questioned by old-earther's by it's very magnitude. Finally, even old-earther's admit that there is compelling evidence that every part of the dry land including the highest mountain peaks were at one time underwater (even if before upheaval). Is this not exactly what the food account details? YES!

Finally, on the issue I raised above about the presumption that little geological change occurred since the flood, Several issues contradict that. First the 15 cubit height of the risen waters does not account for today's highest peaks, indicating that the known mountains of Noah's day were significantly lower. (although I personally believe that the way the passage reads - the waters toped the highest peake of the time by 15 cubits) Redistribution of land animals suggests many land bridges existed which have since submerged (Existing historical accounts refer to a time when Great Britain was joined to Europe for example). Finally, by the mention of man's lifespan before and after the flood, we may reasonably conclude some catastrophic and major changes to the surface and atmosphere of the planet took place - having a detrimental effect on all life. Again, we have an abundance of current evidence supporting all these claims including but not limited to decaying ozone layer, decaying magetic field and rapid field reversals, increasing distance between the earth and moon, and the effect of the moon on the earth's slowing rotation and deteriorating, corrupted gene pool.

So ironically, what the old-earther's use as questionable evidence against a flood, is actually as strong an evidence FOR the flood as you could expect - if it did indeed happen as written. Now I have one final potential fomula supporting the literal flood. First - what the Bible says happened:
(Gen 7:21-23) said:
And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. All in whose nostrils was the breath *of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died. So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive.
Now if this flood actually happened as written, then population statistics should also reasonably coincide with a re-population beginning with the family of Noah - the survivors of the flood. Do they hold up under scrutiny?
Lets' take a look:
The present rate of population increase in the world is more than two per cent per year, and the population is now over four billion. [This figure was correct when Dr. Morris wrote this. The figure is now much higher. — Creation Tips editor.] However, the average rate would only have to be one half of one per cent per year to produce the present world population in 4,300 years.

To put it another way, an average family size of only 2.5 children per family would suffice to develop the present population in just the length of time since Noah, even with an average life-span of only about 40 years per person. These figures are very reasonable, and in fact extremely conservative, showing that the Bible chronology is quite plausible in every way. http://www.users.bigpond.com/rdoolan/flooddate.html
There are pages upon pages of debates on this topic but one can hardly deny the obvious -given almost any scenario, the population (adjusted for periodic catastrophy) is very close to what would be expected given the recorded history of mankind and population statistics along the way.

These are but a paltry few of the recognizable facts as easily supporting the literal flood as anyone claims they disprove it. One does not have to become a rocket scientist to understand them either. The creation account and the flood account leave us to expect to find evidence of catastrophic changes on our planet, and when they are produced, they are questioned by virtue of their very magnitude. How ironic.
 
Upvote 0

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Great, Tim, I am glad you are reviewing these issues, but I think it best that we deal with each one in a separate thread, so that it can focus on the issue without getting things mixed up. Do you mind cutting and pasting this into a new thread, maybe called "angular nonconformities", and cite any sources you are using for your arguments, if any?
 
Upvote 0

California Tim

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2004
869
63
62
Left Coast
✟23,854.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Vance said:
Great, Tim, I am glad you are reviewing these issues, but I think it best that we deal with each one in a separate thread, so that it can focus on the issue without getting things mixed up. Do you mind cutting and pasting this into a new thread, maybe called "angular nonconformities", and cite any sources you are using for your arguments, if any?
I'd love to but you have posted several threads that run the gamut and invite us to "takle" the issue(s). I'm going with the flow on this one. Let's see where it leads. Besides.. everything I've posted is directly related to the "flood" as per the thread title.
 
Upvote 0

Dracil

Well-Known Member
Dec 25, 2003
5,005
245
San Francisco
✟24,207.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
mhess13 said:
YECs have repeated dealt with the global flood. The Bible says it, we believe it, and that settles it

Almost verbatim.
4265_xPHm1.gif
 
Upvote 0

mhess13

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2004
737
59
✟23,700.00
Marital Status
Married
Dracil said:
Almost verbatim.
4265_xPHm1.gif
Amen! You're not going to make me feel bad for believing the infallible word of God! If science conflicts with the Bible, then FALLIBLE sinful man has his "scientific" conclusions wrong. EVERYTHING should be filtered through scripture. :preach: The Bible goes out of it's way to tell us God created man by a direct act (not millions of years of evolution) that all was created in 6 24 hour days, that there was a global flood, that sampson slew 1,000 men with a jawbone, that Elijah made an axe head float, that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, that people used to live to be over 900 years old.................You can refuse to accept it all you want, but GOD SAID IT, I BELIEVE IT AND THAT SETTLES IT. Make fun of me, call me an idiot--you only strengthen my resolve to stand for the Bible. I wear your insults as a badge of honor :preach:
 
  • Like
Reactions: keyarch
Upvote 0

JohnR7

Well-Known Member
Feb 9, 2002
25,258
209
Ohio
✟29,532.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
mhess13 said:
YECs have repeated dealt with the global flood. The Bible says it, we believe it, and that settles it

The Bible does not say there was a "global" flood. The Bible say that the land of "Adamia" was flooded. There would be a different Hebrew word used: "erets" if it was a global flood.

Maybe you need to go back and read your Bible again. Because as you say: The Bible says it, we believe it and that settles it.
 
Upvote 0

JohnR7

Well-Known Member
Feb 9, 2002
25,258
209
Ohio
✟29,532.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
mhess13 said:
Amen! You're not going to make me feel bad for believing the infallible word of God!

Perhaps what you need to do is study the infallible word of God and not spend so much of your time to study the fallible traditions of man. Jesus clearly teaches that the traditions of man makes the Bible of no effect.

Matthew 15:6b Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
 
Upvote 0

Dracil

Well-Known Member
Dec 25, 2003
5,005
245
San Francisco
✟24,207.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
mhess13 said:
Amen! You're not going to make me feel bad for believing the infallible word of God! If science conflicts with the Bible, then FALLIBLE sinful man has his "scientific" conclusions wrong. EVERYTHING should be filtered through scripture. :preach: The Bible goes out of it's way to tell us God created man by a direct act (not millions of years of evolution) that all was created in 6 24 hour days, that there was a global flood, that sampson slew 1,000 men with a jawbone, that Elijah made an axe head float, that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, that people used to live to be over 900 years old.................You can refuse to accept it all you want, but GOD SAID IT, I BELIEVE IT AND THAT SETTLES IT. Make fun of me, call me an idiot--you only strengthen my resolve to stand for the Bible. I wear your insults as a badge of honor :preach:

Except for two things. 1) That's why it's not science 2) God didn't say it. Your interpretations did. Unless of course, you can find in Scriptures the exact verse "Darwin was wrong." :)
 
Upvote 0

mhess13

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2004
737
59
✟23,700.00
Marital Status
Married
JohnR7 said:
The Bible does not say there was a "global" flood. The Bible say that the land of "Adamia" was flooded. There would be a different Hebrew word used: "erets" if it was a global flood.

Maybe you need to go back and read your Bible again. Because as you say: The Bible says it, we believe it and that settles it.
Soooooooo, you're a Hebrew scholar, huh? Nice try, the Bible says that the whole face of the earth was flooded and that the tallest mountain was 15 cubits (I believe) was under water. Yeah, local flood....whatever
 
Upvote 0

mhess13

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2004
737
59
✟23,700.00
Marital Status
Married
Dracil said:
Except for two things. 1) That's why it's not science 2) God didn't say it. Your interpretations did. Unless of course, you can find in Scriptures the exact verse "Darwin was wrong." :)
1) I don't recall saying I give a rip about science
2) I don't "interpret" the Bible. I just read it and believe it
 
Upvote 0

Dracil

Well-Known Member
Dec 25, 2003
5,005
245
San Francisco
✟24,207.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
mhess13 said:
1) I don't recall saying I give a rip about science
2) I don't "interpret" the Bible. I just read it and believe it
1) You agreed with the pic, a commentary about Creationist "science"
2) All human processing is an interpretation. Information cannot enter you and exit without processing by your brain, the result of which is intepretation.
 
Upvote 0

JohnR7

Well-Known Member
Feb 9, 2002
25,258
209
Ohio
✟29,532.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
mhess13 said:
all was created in 6 24 hour days,

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Bible clearly tells us that a day to God is a thousand years to us.
 
Upvote 0

mhess13

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2004
737
59
✟23,700.00
Marital Status
Married
JohnR7 said:
Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Bible clearly tells us that a day to God is a thousand years to us.
How does this prove anything? Yeah TO GOD a thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years so what?

He went out of his way to tell in in 6 literal 24 hour days he created the heavens and earth. check Exodus 20:11 where He confirms this
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.