The Flood - Have We Got It Wrong?

[Papias]

Jazer wrote:

The DNA for the Haplogroup J2 would show evidence for that date based on the founder effect. The geneology in the Bible is accurate and science has evidence for that.

Um, you know that the genetic evidence puts haplogroup J2 as splitting from earlier stock 18,500 years ago. Biblical literalists put the flood at 4,500 years ago. 18,500 isn't the same as 4,500. haplogroup j2 (y-dna) : definition of haplogroup j2 (y-dna) and synonym of haplogroup j2 (y-dna) (English)

iambeeman wrote:

Not much of a link, at very best it could be called a limited list of brief summaries, and certainly not "read for yourself" materiel.

A book I'm told is good but hasn't made it to the top of my "to read" list is "Flood Legends" by Charles Martin.

OK, so you are telling me that you think the various flood stories are " highly correllated", because you read that on a creationist website that you cut and pasted, yet haven't read the book you recommend, and don't want to even start on brief summaries? Maybe that's a good time to wisely reserved judgement until you can look into it using objective, more complete sources?

More than that, Iambeeman has ignored (or perhaps agrees with?) the more relevant point in that post - that there is pleny of information from many other civilizations showing that no flood occured as described.

So, let's look at where we are. So far we've seen:

• That Faith.Man's point is supported by the fact that practically all geologists today agree on that the evidence shows that the earth is old and was never covered by a global flood, agreeing what what Christian geologists concluded over 150 years ago.

• That iambeeman's own list shows that there is a lot of diversity in flood stories (consistent with different origins), and that their common feature of being flood stories fits with Martingale's observation that people build cities near rivers, and that rivers flood.

• That the closest match to the Noah flood story is the flood story in the epic of Gilgamesh, written before the Noah story in the same area, making it likely that the Noah flood story is an altered adaptation of the Gilgamesh story.

• That Jazer sees genetic haplogroup J2 supporting the date of the Noah story, even though the Noah story gives a date of 4,500 years ago, and haplogroup J2 dates to 18,500 years ago.

• That people have fabricated hoaxes about Noah's ark for centuries, and the recent mention of the latest of these on this thread shows that this well-debunked hoaxes are still fooling Christians.

• That there are all kinds of logistical impossibilities (like feeding animals after the flood, transportation, unique habitats, and so on) in Noah's flood story, many of which have been described online and are easiliy available.

• That many civilizations are seen to have been contiuous through the supposed flood, apparently unaware that they were underwater and everyone was dead. King lists and such continue straight through, from well before to well after the supposed flood, without interruption.

I would hope that even one of those, much less all of them, shows why it is so silly for us to maintain that this flood is an historical occurrance. Doing so only makes Christianity look silly. We've already got enough other stuff making Christianity look silly - like the thousands of Christians sayng that the rapture will happen tomorrow at 6 pm. It's sad to see.....

Papias

 

[Greg1234]

I have believed that Noah's Flood was a large local flood for quite some time, not global as most Christians believe. If interested in this interpretation, consider reading "A Biblical Case for an Old Earth" by Dr. David Snoke. There is a section of the book devoted to Noah's Flood.

It depends. In the same stance you can say that there is no evidence for the gobal fire. A global fire includes the ocean and for fire to have been sustained over the ocean the type of chemicals needed would have certainly left a mark on the ecosystem. Also, a global fire would have wiped out all animals and plants directly or indirectly, which doesn't explain the diversity present today. Biodiversity biogeography, etc all refute the global fire, unless you're talking about a local fire.

 

[Faith.Man]

It depends. In the same stance you can say that there is no evidence for the gobal fire. A global fire includes the ocean and for fire to have been sustained over the ocean the type of chemicals needed would have certainly left a mark on the ecosystem. Also, a global fire would have wiped out all animals and plants directly or indirectly, which doesn't explain the diversity present today. Biodiversity biogeography, etc all refute the global fire, unless you're talking about a local fire.

You've got me mixed up with someone else.

 

[iambeeman]

OK, so you are telling me that you think the various flood stories are " highly correllated", because you read that on a creationist website that you cut and pasted, yet haven't read the book you recommend, and don't want to even start on brief summaries? Maybe that's a good time to wisely reserved judgement until you can look into it using objective, more complete sources?

Actually, I've had extensive conversations with various people (spanning from well read laymen through to Phd scientists) through out the years (and several of them have mentioned Dr. Morris), but that is hardly something I can quote on here. So, no I didn't read one article and make up my mind, it was rather well thought out. As to the book, no I haven't read it but it is one of the recommended titles that has come up in my discussions with some rather intelligent people and I thought if someone actually wanted to learn some of the facts on the subject that it might be helpful. And I didn't say that I didn't read the summary list, I read all of them that linked, I even found some other sources for one that wouldn't link, did you? Or are throwing Wikipedia links out there.

More than that, Iambeeman has ignored (or perhaps agrees with?) the more relevant point in that post - that there is pleny of information from many other civilizations showing that no flood occured as described.

I wasn't ignoring your post, I was ignoring you. When it comes to dealing with the rude, never let it be said I deserted the teachings of my youth. "Don't lower yourself to that level" is what my Mama taught me.