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I feel sad when I finish books. Strange, I know!Good. When I really get into a book, I want to keep reading as much as I can, but don't want to finish.
Not at all.I feel sad when I finish books. Strange, I know!
Ah, so the closer a Creed's formation is to the time of Jesus, the more accurate it is likely to be, yes? Of course, the boon a Creed recieves from it's compilation date becomes negligable after, say, the first century CE. But I can see how a Creed composed at 33CE would be a more accurate representation of Jesus' teachings than one composed in, say, 2007CE.The date gives authority to some Creeds because it demonstrates what the early Church believed. Like that in Corinthians 15, or the 'Old Roman Symbol' reflect the veiws of the Early Church who were connected with Jesus teaching.
AllegedlyPeople like Paul, along with the other disciples were inspired by the Holy Spirit which came out in their writing.
But by what criteria do you judge the Nicene Creed's accuracy?As for things like the Nicene Creed, it stakes its claim on scholarship, and the certain farmiliarity with the disciples writings and knowledge of the Early Church and the disciples.
Hmm, Roman historian Tacitus mentions christians. Interms of christians being evil and destructive, IIRC.Well, there are Roman sources mentioning... someone that could be him, aren't there?
Didn't he also mention someone who got sentenced to death by Pontius Pilatus? I know this was quoted several times around this forum...Hmm, Roman historian Tacitus mentions christians. Interms of christians being evil and destructive, IIRC.
Tacitus said:Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.
As far as I am aware, there are no contemporary documents attesting to the life of Jesus. You'd think that if a self-proclaimed Messiah sacked the Temple of Jerusalem, at least one of the several dozen historians of the time would note it down somewhere.Well, there are Roman sources mentioning... someone that could be him, aren't there?
Thanks - that's what I remembered reading.Didn't he also mention someone who got sentenced to death by Pontius Pilatus? I know this was quoted several times around this forum...
*googles* Ah, found the Annals. And the quote.
Though apparently the Annals were written in 109 AD... Not quite contemporary.
Anyone knows of any other source?
As far as I am aware, there are no contemporary documents attesting to the life of Jesus. You'd think that if a self-proclaimed Messiah sacked the Temple of Jerusalem, at least one of the several dozen historians of the time would note it down somewhere.
And FYI, our collection of Roman records is rather complete. We even have divorce papers and love notes.
This is my biggest problem with the existance of such a revolutionary character: his utter absence from contemporary history.
lol tell me a little more what you are looking for... what I was going to say in response to this, you quoted using your above quote as a response to that.But by what criteria do you judge the Nicene Creed's accuracy?
Yeah he ascended in front of how many people? 12?And you would think that someone rising from the dead and speaking to hundreds of people, not to mention ascending into the sky right in front of them, would produce extrabiblical records.
The idea that Jesus of Nazareth never existed is becoming a pet peeve of mine. Just what was Christianity based on if Jesus never existed? Did a bunch of Jews get together and decide to make up a savior so they could start their own religion? Where did the gospels come from? Were they all made up from scratch? If so, why were there so many conflicting gospels, the majority of which were discarded? Shouldn't there be only a few and shouldn't they all match up better than they do?As far as I am aware, there are no contemporary documents attesting to the life of Jesus. You'd think that if a self-proclaimed Messiah sacked the Temple of Jerusalem, at least one of the several dozen historians of the time would note it down somewhere.
And FYI, our collection of Roman records is rather complete. We even have divorce papers and love notes.
This is my biggest problem with the existance of such a revolutionary character: his utter absence from contemporary history.
lol tell me a little more what you are looking for... what I was going to say in response to this, you quoted using your above quote as a response to that.
Yeah he ascended in front of how many people? 12?
There probably are a lot of records that were destroyed or something to that effect. Not too long after this Jerusulem was torched to the ground and many of its inhabitants were slaughtered.
Other than certain texts like Josephus et al, the Romans would not really take such pains to preserve any old document. Assuming a lot of people wrote about it, those documents would still probably be lost. The ones that survived were preserved by the Church (and some were written post 70 ad of course).
Even if they were in Rome, Rome was sacked. It is notable that many of the Early Church Fathers and their critics quoted back and forth from documents that we no longer have. There very well may have been a plethora of writing about him at one time, but so much has been lost to history. Also I really want to see what the Vatican is hiding in their library. There are a lot of texts that they won't let anyone touch, and conveniently pull out if they are needed.
In any case, pretty much all writing we have about Jesus Christ treats him as a historical person, and attests to his ability to preform miracles. Sure we cannot 'prove' that he did that simply using history, but we can demonstrate that people believed he could do so.
So...And to add to that when they believed their lives changed dramatically and not only that but the lives of countless millions down through the ages who believed the word they preached. Just as the Lord had intended.
Dude that lame argument has been shot down a million times by theodicy for over a millenia. As for other accounts from Jesus life outside the four Gospels, there are a number. Or at least a number dealing very heavily with his life. There is not any sort of 'lack' of evidence despite what the pseudo-intellectual pop culture will tell you.So...
How many accounts of Jesus's life or even existence aside from that in the Bible are there?
PS, saying Adam made evil come doesn't solve the problem of evil. You still have an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God who created a species with the capability to sin, do evil and ruin something that is supposedly 'perfect' and is continually not solving these problems he is ultimately responsible for, supposedly being without flaw or err.
Well, cite them then.Dude that lame argument has been shot down a million times by theodicy for over a millenia. As for other accounts from Jesus life outside the four Gospels, there are a number. Or at least a number dealing very heavily with his life. There is not any sort of 'lack' of evidence despite what the pseudo-intellectual pop culture will tell you.
I reccommend C.S. Lewis' work he is a more recent one, but I think you might be more into his work than that of old crusty bishops and such.Well, cite them then.
I... see.lol tell me a little more what you are looking for... what I was going to say in response to this, you quoted using your above quote as a response to that.
So how come we have such a complete collection of documents from that immediate period, yet no mention of Jesus or his actions within a decade of his (alleged) death?Yeah he ascended in front of how many people? 12?
There probably are a lot of records that were destroyed or something to that effect. Not too long after this Jerusulem was torched to the ground and many of its inhabitants were slaughtered.
Which is why I ask for contemporary documents. If the death of Princess Diana was only reported by the media 1 year after her death, would you call that contemporary?Other than certain texts like Josephus et al, the Romans would not really take such pains to preserve any old document. Assuming a lot of people wrote about it, those documents would still probably be lost. The ones that survived were preserved by the Church (and some were written post 70 ad of course).
Nevertheless, the documentation survives to this day. They were meticulous keepers of Rome's affairs. The fiasco at the Temple would not have gone unnoticed.Even if they were in Rome, Rome was sacked.
As a spokesperson of the pseudo-intellectual pop culture of the University of Birmingham, could you present me with these accounts?Dude that lame argument has been shot down a million times by theodicy for over a millenia. As for other accounts from Jesus life outside the four Gospels, there are a number. Or at least a number dealing very heavily with his life. There is not any sort of 'lack' of evidence despite what the pseudo-intellectual pop culture will tell you.
I... see.
So how come we have such a complete collection of documents from that immediate period, yet no mention of Jesus or his actions within a decade of his (alleged) death?
Which is why I ask for contemporary documents. If the death of Princess Diana was only reported by the media 1 year after her death, would you call that contemporary?
Nevertheless, the documentation survives to this day. They were meticulous keepers of Rome's affairs. The fiasco at the Temple would not have gone unnoticed.
As a spokesperson of the pseudo-intellectual pop culture of the University of Birmingham, could you present me with these accounts?
FYI: a theodicy is an attempt to reconile the problem of evil.
We didn't lose any documents from directly AFTER it was destroyed as a result of its destruction. Why wouldn't we have a lot? Maybe if we had more Christian writings PERIOD from around 40 AD much less earlier, we could give you what you are looking for. then again see the above post I made about this. Also arguments from silence in history are rather weak.So how come we have such a complete collection of documents from that immediate period, yet no mention of Jesus or his actions within a decade of his (alleged) death?
You do realize that there is a difference between the way information is written and travels now verses how it happened back then... don't you? And actually yes I would consider that contemporary.Which is why I ask for contemporary documents. If the death of Princess Diana was only reported by the media 1 year after her death, would you call that contemporary?
Lol are you kidding? The temple fiasco was a jewish temple not the temple of artemis or something... even if it was I doubt they would record a madman turning over their tables while passing through. Documentation of what survives? That rome was sacked? Of course it would. There was in fact documentation of Jesus trial. We don't actually have it now, the document was lost, but it was quoted by early Christian apologists.Nevertheless, the documentation survives to this day. They were meticulous keepers of Rome's affairs. The fiasco at the Temple would not have gone unnoticed.
As a spokesperson of the pseudo-intellectual pop culture of the University of Birmingham, could you present me with these accounts?
EVERYTHING and EVERYONE that God created was good and perfect but then sin entered and God's creation evolved, so to speak into darkness and death and evil.
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