The flat Earth parallel and other miscellaneous quotes

shernren · Dec 9, 2008

I just finished reading Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea by Christine Garwood. It is a fascinating read for all those who want to see a cute little example of how a pseudoscientific idea can grip public imagination.

No, Columbus never disproved the flat Earth, because everybody believed in a spherical Earth by then. However, the zetetic movement began in the late 1800s in England to prove precisely the point (that the Earth was flat), and it looked eerily like modern creationism:

... while zetetics emphasized Biblical authority, they also turned to scientific experiments, empirical proof and the mythology of discovery as vital components of their protests. At base level, even zetetic philosophy was promoted as a Baconian fact-finding mission, an objective quest to seek the truth, while rhetoric alluding to common sense, empiricism, reason and logic was as much a feature of zetetic publications as Biblical quotations and statements of faith.

The latter point is critical because, from the campaign's inception, flat-earth advocates sought to assume the authority and apparatus of science, the very thing they purported to loathe, and employ it to their own ends. In many respects it was a powerful and timely move. From the early nineteenth century science displaced religion as the primary source of cultural authority and offered a number of well-attested practices that flat-earth believers proceeded to put to novel use.

Although, in terms of ideological and organizational sophistication, the movement peaked through the era of Parallax and Lady Blount, Shenton and Johnson went on to reflect such developments in science and society as a whole; in the face of space exploration and shifting world-views they emphasized "scientific" and political arguments pertaining to democracy and freedom of thought.

(p. 354; paragraphing added)

The last sentence is especially poignant. "Equal time" and "teach the controversy", anybody?

Later on in this summary chapter she proceeds to make a detailed parallel between creationism and flat-earth belief:

Although such creationist organizations [as CRS and ICR] recoil from association with flat-earth believers, some general similarities between the two campaigns cannot be overlooked. As Robert Schadewald contended, they concur on a number of issues, including the authority of the scriptures as a scientific guide to the natural world, the limitations of a theory-led approach, the duplicity of conventional scientists, and the impossibility of reconciling orthodox science with the Bible. And just as they have similar foundations and histories, so, too, have they employed similar strategies to promulgate their world-views.

Both have challenged the authority of conventional scientific knowledge through lectures, debates and investigations, proposing methodologies and arguments alike in structure, content and tone. More specifically, comparable creationist practices include monetary offers for proof of organic evolution, an emphasis on public debates involving persuasive speakers, and a stress on undertaking original research and field studies where possible, including several expeditions to Turkey's Mount Ararat to locate the remains of Noah's Ark.

The arguments employed by creationists and zetetics also display a marked resemblance. At base level, unlike the majority of Christians, creationists assert that if conventional science is true then the Bible must be false;
that one cannot believe the Bible and the theory of evolution / the theory that the earth is a globe;
that the Genesis account of creation / the earth is flat is what the Bible teaches;
that evolution / a globular earth is only a theory;
that evolution / a globular earth is anti-God;
that evolution / a globular earth is a satanic device;
that children are being corrupted by the theory of evolution / the theory of a globular earth,
and that the theory of evolution / the theory of a globular earth is a source of social evil, the cause of imminent chaos and collapse.

Moreover, both creationists and zetetics claim to use the scientific method, which they define narrowly, and stress a paucity of proof for the opposing viewpoint; creationists, for example, highlight an alleged lack of evidence for evolution, especially a lack of transitional forms from invertebrate to vertebrate, from fish to amphibian, reptile to bird or ape to man, the so-called 'missing link', an argument hotly disputed by the evolutionist camp.

(pp. 356-357)

And for good measure here are nice quotes from According to Plan by Graeme Goldsworthy, a beginner's introduction to Biblical theology, which I finished reading on the flight from Adelaide to Canberra:

Christians with the same or very similar convictions about the Bible disagree over what the Bible teaches on the subject of baptism, or predestination, or the second coming of Christ. "Bible-believing" Christians are very serious about this. Truth matters, and you have to defend what you believe to be true. Deciding to be biblical and to believe and act upon what the Bible teaches does not solve all our problems. We are never finished with questions of what the Bible says, how it says it and what it should mean to us. ... The meaning of the Bible is not settled purely on the basis of our understanding of its inspiration and authority.

Two comments [about Genesis 1], however, can be made. First, the passage is unique and thus presents some difficulties in interpretation. The possibilities are far more numerous than a simple choice between strictly literalistic history (usually taken to mean creation in six periods of twenty-four hours), and non-historical myth (usually taken to mean no relation to historical fact). ...

Second, when we face such ambiguities, that is, when more than one possible way exists of understanding something in the Bible, the gospel must instruct us since it is God's final and fullest word to man. It is clear from the gospel that God created all things for a purpose, and that He exercises His rule over creation by His word. It is not at all clear from the gospel that the creation took place in six twenty-four hour periods. Nor is it clear from the gospel that it did not happen in that way. The question is not whether the Bible tells the truth, but how it tells it.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 9, 2008

http://www.bibleandscience.com/bible/books/genesis/genesis1_circleheavens.htm

Genesis 1:5-8 DAY 2
Circle of the Heavens

Hebrew Text

The Hebrew word for "circle" is gwj. This root word is used six times in the OT (Isa 40:22, 44:13; Job 22:14, 26:10; Prov 8:27 also Sir 43:12, 24:5: 1QM 10:13). BDB says the meaning of gwh is, "vault, horizon; of the heavens, sea and earth" (1980, 295). First the phrase "circle of the heavens" will be studied, later the "circle of the sea" and then finally the "circle of the earth."
Job 22:14 says, ilhty <ym? gwj which I translate, "but He habitually causes himself to walk around the vault of heaven."
LXX Text

The LXX in Job 22:14 has, kai guron ouranou diaporeuetai which I translate, "and he passes through the vault of heaven." In the Hebrew, God is walking on the arched shaped firmament, but in the LXX God is passing through the vault of heaven. This may reflect the new thinking that there are different spheres surrounding the earth that one must pass through to get to heaven. It is also an attempt to avoid any anthropomorphic terms for God.
Latin Text

The Vulgate in Job 22:14 says, et circa cardines caeli perambulat, which I translate, "and He walks around the poles of heaven." The Vulgate seems to translate this verse as referring to the rotation around the poles of heaven. The Vulgate implies that heaven is a sphere that is revolving around the earth.

Jewish Literature

The Apocryphal books also shed light on this passage in Job 22:14. In the book of I Esdras 4:34 it says, "great is the earth, high is the heaven, swift is the sun in his course, for he compasseth the heavens round about, and fetcheth his course again to his own place in one day." In the Greek it is the phrase, en tw kuklw tou ouranou, meaning "in the circle of the heaven" (Septuagint 1978, 8).
In the book of the Wisdom of Sirach, chapter 13:2 says, "but deemed either fire, or wind, or the swift air, or the circle of the stars, or the violent water, or the lights of heaven, to be the gods which govern the world" (Septuagint 1978, 66). Sirach stresses that the stars are not gods. Also in the Wisdom of Sirach 7:18-19 it says:

For he hath given me certain knowledge of the things that are, namely, to know how the world was made, and the operation of the elements: the beginning, ending, and midst of the times: the alterations of the sun, and change of the seasons: the circuits of years, and positions of stars (Septuagint 1978, 61).

The phrase "circuits of years" may refer to the cycle of the stars in one year through the zodiac.
The Wisdom of Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) 24:4-5 says, "I (wisdom) dwelt in high places, and my throne is in a cloudy pillar. I alone compassed the circuit of the heaven, and walked in the bottom of the deep" (Ibid, 94). The Greek word for "circuit" is guros which is the same word used in the LXX in Isaiah 40:22. In the Latin text it says, Gyrum caeli circuivi sola which means, "I alone compassed the circle of the sky."
It also says in the Wisdom of Sirach chapter 43:11-12, "Look upon the rainbow, and praise him that made it; very beautiful it is in the brightness thereof. It compasseth the heaven about with a glorious circle, and the hands of the most High have bended it" (Ibid, 112). The Greek word for "circle" here is kuklos which is used often in classical Greek literature to describe the heavens. In the Hebrew text from the Dead Sea Scrolls it reads, hdwbkb hpyqh qwj meaning "inscribe a decree in his glory" (Vattioni 1968, 233). The Latin text says, Gyravit caelum in circuitu glorious suae, which means, "It (the rainbow) encircles the sky in its glorious circle" (Ibid, 232).

yeshuasavedme · Dec 9, 2008

http://www.s8int.com/page5.html
Incredible Piri Reis Map

Speaking about the Biblical flood of Noah, (weren't we) I wonder--could a worldwide flood which covered the earth to a depth of 20 feet over even the mountains have been a cause for continental drift? I digress, but the story of creation suggests that there was only one land mass initially. Scientists today believe that all the continents were at one time one mass as well. Whats more cataclismic than a worldwide flood?
We spoke briefly about this map in the Intro on Page 1. What can you say about a map which dates back to at least 300 that shows the full circumference of the earth to plus or minus 50 miles? How do you explain an accurate AERIAL map of all of the continents, during a period when most of the scientific world believed the earth to be flat? [/size]

What can be the scientific explanation for a map that shows Antartica as it existed before it was covered with ice? Before recorded history? Again,left over information from before the flood destroyed the earth and all its civilizations?
The map was found in the 1500's and according to writing on the map itself, was compiled from earlier maps dating back to the 300's.
The true mysteries of of this map were eventually discovered by professor Charles H. Hapgood and revealed to the scientific community in his book, "Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings".
During scrutiny of the map, Hapgood discovered a partial charting of Antarctica, made during a period when the coast was free of ice. This coastal structure, now covered again by ice, was subsequently verified by satellite radar scanning. Ice core samples of the coastline have fixed the last ice-free period to between 11,000 B.C. and 4,000 B.C.
Our historical understanding of navigation includes a period of time before which it was impossible to determine a ships latitude (North to South position) in the Southern Hemisphere. This was because the known method involved sighting the angle of the only fixed star - the North Star - which cannot be seen in the Southern Hemisphere because of the curviture of the Earth.
Despite this handicap, these maps show amazing details and acurate latitude placement of many known islands along the southern most coastlines of Antarctica! But this paradox of history was made even more astounding.
Hapgood has proved that the Piri Re'is map is plotted out in plane geometry, containing latitudes and longitudes at right angles in a traditional "grid"; yet it is obviously copied from an earlier map that was projected using spherical trigonometry! Not only did the early map makers know that the Earth was round, but they had knowledge of its true circumference to within 50 miles!

Assyrian · Dec 10, 2008

What has a 16th century map drawn after Columbus discovered America got to do with the spherical earth heresy?

yeshuasavedme · Dec 10, 2008

Assyrian said:
What has a 16th century map drawn after Columbus discovered America got to do with the spherical earth heresy?

You are misinformed. Since you have "not heard the matter, it is folly to answer it".

Pro 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth [it], it [is] folly and shame unto him.

Go hear it, please, and then you can answer in an informed manner.
I have the Book by Hapgood, giving the details and the detective work which he and his students did on the map, and the mathematical answers they discovered. -You can get it from the Library, I'm sure.
The map obviously goes back to the time after the flood, when the earth was mapped, before the total dark ages covered the earth which began when God confounded the mother tongue and subsequently divided the earth by waters -as is told of in the Book of Jasher which Moses wrote, and in Genesis when Moses redacted the story; and before
Eratosthenes. Eratosthenes computed the circumference of the earth with about a 200 mile error, only, in the third century B.C., which circumference was not computed again until modern sattellite technology was reinvented.

Ecc 1:9-11
That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun.
Is there anything of which it may be said,
"See, this is new"?
It has already been in ancient times before us.
There is no remembrance of former things,
Nor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come
By those who will come after.

"What can you say about a map which dates back to at least 300 that shows the full circumference of the earth to plus or minus 50 miles? How do you explain an accurate AERIAL map of all of the continents, during a period when most of the scientific world believed the earth to be flat?

What can be the scientific explanation for a map that shows Antartica as it existed before it was covered with ice? Before recorded history? Again,left over information from before the flood destroyed the earth and all its civilizations?
During scrutiny of the map, Hapgood discovered a partial charting of Antarctica, made during a period when the coast was free of ice. This coastal structure, now covered again by ice, was subsequently verified by satellite radar scanning. Ice core samples of the coastline have fixed the last ice-free period to between 11,000 B.C. and 4,000 B.C.

[/size]

yeshuasavedme · Dec 10, 2008

http://www.juliantrubin.com/bigten/eratosthenes.html

Eratosthenes will always be remembered for the calculation of the Earth's circumference circa 240 BC, using trigonometry and knowledge of the angle of elevation of the Sun at noon in Alexandria and Syene (now Aswan, Egypt). The calculation is based on the assumption that the Earth is spherical and that the Sun is so far away that its rays can be taken as parallel.

Details of his method he published in a work On the measurement of the Earth which unfortunately was lost. We know indirectly about his method from other authors.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 10, 2008

"and the battle of heavenly heroes spans the globe"
From books preserved among the Dead Sea Scrolls, translated; 1QH XVI 27 -XVII2: speaking of that future time when the Judge of the earth returns to judge and remove all the wicked, which Enoch first foretold and which the OT and NT refer to, which time is called the Great Tribulation.

When the traps of the pit open
all the snares of wickedness spread
and the nets of the doomed upon the surface of the sea.
When all the arrows of the pit fly without return
they hit without hope.
When the measuring line for judgment falls,
and the lot of anger against the forsaken
and the outburst of wrath against the hypocrites,
and the period of anger against Belial,
and the ropes of death approach with no escape,
then the torrents of Belial overflow their high banks
like a fire which devours all those drawing water (?)
destroying every tree, green or dry, from its canals.
He revolves like flames of fire
until none of those who drink are left.
He consumes the foundations of clay
and the tract of dry land;
the bases of the mountains does he burn
and converts the roots of flint rock
into streams of lava.
It consumes right to the great deep.
The torrents of Belial burst into Abaddon.
The schemers of the deep howl with the din
of those extracting mud.
The earth cries out at the calamity which overtakes the world,
and all its schemers scream,
and all who are upon it go crazy,
and melt away in the great calamity.
For God thunders with the thunder of his great strength,
and his holy residence echoes with the truth of his glory, *

and the host of the heavens adds its noise,
and the eternal foundations melt and shake,
and the battle of heavenly heroes spans the globe,
and does not return until it has terminated
the destruction decided forever.
There is nothing like it.

* speaking of the sun, in which He set His tabernacle: Isaiah 18:4 -in the Hebrew; and Psalm 18:6; in the Hebrew and in the English of the Douay Rheims. and in my copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Translated, the Hymns [to be sung in the Temple by the appointed singers of the priesthood, I believe]:

Col XX (=XII + frags. 54 + 60)
line 4
[For the Instruc]tor, praises and prayers to bow down and entreat always,
from period to period:
when the light comes from His residence;
in the positions of the day, according to the regulation,
in accordance to the laws of the great luminary;
at the return of the evening, at the departure of light,
when the realm of the shades begins; at the appointed moment of the night, in their stations;
at the return of dawn, at the moment when it withdraws to its quarters before the light;
at the departure of night when day enters; continually.

This is speaking of the praises and prayers offered to God from dawn to dawn, “when the light comes from His residence to the return of dawn“. Following in the hymns are some of the prayers and and fragments for the entire day and night period .

Assyrian · Dec 10, 2008

yeshuasavedme said:
You are misinformed. Since you have "not heard the matter, it is folly to answer it".

Go hear it, please, and then you can answer in an informed manner.
I have the Book by Hapgood, giving the details and the detective work which he and his students did on the map, and the mathematical answers they discovered. -You can get it from the Library, I'm sure.
The map obviously goes back to the time after the flood, when the earth was mapped, before the total dark ages covered the earth which began when God confounded the mother tongue and subsequently divided the earth by waters -as is told of in the Book of Jasher which Moses wrote, and in Genesis when Moses redacted the story; and before
Eratosthenes. Eratosthenes computed the circumference of the earth with about a 200 mile error, only, in the third century B.C., which circumference was not computed again until modern sattellite technology was reinvented.

Ecc 1:9-11
That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun.
Is there anything of which it may be said,
"See, this is new"?
It has already been in ancient times before us.
There is no remembrance of former things,
Nor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come
By those who will come after.

"What can you say about a map which dates back to at least 300 that shows the full circumference of the earth to plus or minus 50 miles? How do you explain an accurate AERIAL map of all of the continents, during a period when most of the scientific world believed the earth to be flat?

What can be the scientific explanation for a map that shows Antartica as it existed before it was covered with ice? Before recorded history? Again,left over information from before the flood destroyed the earth and all its civilizations?
During scrutiny of the map, Hapgood discovered a partial charting of Antarctica, made during a period when the coast was free of ice. This coastal structure, now covered again by ice, was subsequently verified by satellite radar scanning. Ice core samples of the coastline have fixed the last ice-free period to between 11,000 B.C. and 4,000 B.C.

Click to expand...

Ecc 12:12 My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

I have read enough wild archaeology in my time, I don't see why I should have to thrall through another one, just to ask questions about the gaping holes I lave seen so far. Do you mean to the say the Piri Reis map is not the one drawn by Piri Reis the Ottoman Admiral in 1513? That's 21 years after Columbus sailed to America. Now maybe Piri Reis got the coastline of America from maps handed down since the Bablyonians circumnavigated the globe and aliens mapped it from the air. Or maybe he got it from maps drawn by Europeans travelling to the Americas since Columbus. Hmm which could it be. Was that the undiscovered Antarctic at the bottom of the map linked to Brazil, or the rest of the South American coast which he drew drew round the bottom of the sheet to fit in?

Not much point quoting the dead sea scrolls, they were written after the Greeks showed the earth was a globe.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 10, 2008

Assyrian said:
Ecc 12:12 My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

I have read enough wild archaeology in my time, I don't see why I should have to thrall through another one, just to ask questions about the gaping holes I lave seen so far. Do you mean to the say the Piri Reis map is not the one drawn by Piri Reis the Ottoman Admiral in 1513? That's 21 years after Columbus sailed to America. Now maybe Piri Reis got the coastline of America from maps handed down since the Bablyonians circumnavigated the globe and aliens mapped it from the air. Or maybe he got it from maps drawn by Europeans travelling to the Americas since Columbus. Hmm which could it be. Was that the undiscovered Antarctic at the bottom of the map linked to Brazil, or the rest of the South American coast which he drew drew round the bottom of the sheet to fit in?

Not much point quoting the dead sea scrolls, they were written after the Greeks showed the earth was a globe.

You are still misinformed; not just about the Bible, but about history in general and the writings of old.
The Dead Sea scrolls contain parts of many writings from times long before Eratosthenes computed the circumference of the earth in the 3rd century B.C.: writings from before the flood written by Enoch; hymns written by David that were not included in the OT; the testaments of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob's sons; writings of Moses that are not in Genesis; and many other ancient documents which were not written after Eratosthenes computed the circumference of the globe.
Anyone who discounts as not true what he has not informed himself of by investigation is a partaker of folly.
And Hapgoods work on the ancient maps show anarctica before the ice covered it and as two halves separated by a river, which was confirmed by modern sattellite technology. It also showed the circumference of the earth to within 50 miles, a feat not possible again until modern sattellite technology.
You are full of nonsensical illogical statements which are proven untrue by anyone who does the research for themselves. Read the book, through for yourself, before making false statements about it.

shernren · Dec 11, 2008

Not that any of this archeological business really matters. Believe it or not, people actually did believe that the Earth was round in Columbus' day. There was opposition to his voyage, but not because people were afraid he would fall off the edge of the Earth. Columbus thought the radius of the Earth was much smaller than it actually is, and so he thought he could reach Asia with his amount of supplies; his detractors rightly pointed out that he didn't have enough supplies to make it all the way, and late in the journey when his men nearly mutinied, it was simply because he was actually running out of food and water. And he wouldn't have made it, if not for the fact that the east coast of America is smack where he thought Asia would be.

But the whole zetetic business is squarely a 19th-20th century phenomenon. Amazing, really.

Assyrian · Dec 11, 2008

yeshuasavedme said:
You are still misinformed; not just about the Bible, but about history in general and the writings of old.
The Dead Sea scrolls contain parts of many writings from times long before Eratosthenes computed the circumference of the earth in the 3rd century B.C.: writings from before the flood written by Enoch; hymns written by David that were not included in the OT; the testaments of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob's sons; writings of Moses that are not in Genesis; and many other ancient documents which were not written after Eratosthenes computed the circumference of the globe.
Anyone who discounts as not true what he has not informed himself of by investigation is a partaker of folly.
And Hapgoods work on the ancient maps show anarctica before the ice covered it and as two halves separated by a river, which was confirmed by modern sattellite technology. It also showed the circumference of the earth to within 50 miles, a feat not possible again until modern sattellite technology.
You are full of nonsensical illogical statements which are proven untrue by anyone who does the research for themselves. Read the book, through for yourself, before making false statements about it.

This is a debate forum. You need to support you side of the argument. If you put up a really good convincing argument of the very strange claims you make, then I might want to read more. But so far you have only given sources showing people knew the earth was a sphere that come from a time after we know they learned them. How do you know that the DSS writings attributed to Enoch and David were written by them?

Do you know that the words used in that is translated as 'globe' actually have the connotation of sphere in the original Hebrew?

and the host of the heavens adds its noise,
and the eternal foundations melt and shake,
and the battle of heavenly heroes spans the globe,
and does not return until it has terminated
the destruction decided forever.
There is nothing like it.

As far as I can see, the word translated globe here is tebel

כבודו וצבא השמים יתנו בקולם [ו]יתמוגגו וירעדו אושי עולם ומלחמת גבורי
שמים תשוט בתבל ולא תש[וב ע]ד כלה ונחרצה לעד ואפס כמוה

H8398
תּבל
têbêl
tay-bale'
From H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension the globe; by implication its inhabitants; specifically a particular land, as Babylonia or Palestine: - habitable part, world. Strong's definition.

As well as narrower meanings of fertile inhabited land, tebel was used to describe the whole world Job 34:13 Who gave him charge over the earth, and who laid on himthe whole world? Now to us the whole world is the globe, and it looks like your translators used that word to translate tebel. But the meaning of spherical shape is not there in the original just the idea of the entire world.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 11, 2008

Assyrian said:
This is a debate forum. You need to support you side of the argument. If you put up a really good convincing argument of the very strange claims you make, then I might want to read more. But so far you have only given sources showing people knew the earth was a sphere that come from a time after we know they learned them. How do you know that the DSS writings attributed to Enoch and David were written by them?

Do you know that the words used in that is translated as 'globe' actually have the connotation of sphere in the original Hebrew?

As far as I can see, the word translated globe here is tebel

כבודו וצבא השמים יתנו בקולם [ו]יתמוגגו וירעדו אושי עולם ומלחמת גבורי
שמים תשוט בתבל ולא תש[וב ע]ד כלה ונחרצה לעד ואפס כמוה

H8398
תּבל
têbêl
tay-bale'
From H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension the globe; by implication its inhabitants; specifically a particular land, as Babylonia or Palestine: - habitable part, world. Strong's definition.

As well as narrower meanings of fertile inhabited land, tebel was used to describe the whole world Job 34:13 Who gave him charge over the earth, and who laid on himthe whole world? Now to us the whole world is the globe, and it looks like your translators used that word to translate tebel. But the meaning of spherical shape is not there in the original just the idea of the entire world.

You want to debate the translator, Martinez, not me. Here's his email addy -for you to debate with him. F.Garcia.Martinez@theo.kuleuven.

I am attributing the hymns of praise for the degrees of the sun going round the earth and "returning", in the DSS to David and the appointed and anointed singers and songwriters for and the Temple, when it stood -and the record in the DSS is that David wrote four thousand hymns.
Also, I am attributing the world war between the sons of God and the sons of belial whcih is written of in the DSS to Enoch's revelation of the end times' great Tribulation, because that is where the information comes from, when fallen angels, demons, devils, and evil men, war against God's Holy Host at the return of Jesus Christ to cleanse the earth of all that offends and to establish the Sabbath Reign of His Peace for this creation.

I have given lots of information in my different posts from the Word of God and the record in Jasher [compiled by Moses, mainly, using other patriarch's testaments -of which some bits of those testaments remain in the DSS collections], which show that the entire globe was settled, from the time of Noah's sons' dispersion after the confounding of the mother tongue at Babel, and the subsequent division of the land mass by waters, in the days of Peleg.

By Nabuchadnazzers time, Daniel told Nebuchadnazzer that God had made Nebuchadnazzer "king of kings" over all the earth, wherever man, beast, or fowl dwelt. The western continents and Asia were settled by the sons of Noah's descendents, and the Olmec empire was in decline, in what is now Mexico. Nebuchadnazzer ruled the Olmec Empire, all other western continent empires, and all Asian empires, and the empires of kings in all the globe.
Tht is God's Word. Nebuchadnazzer reigned as king of kings in the 6th century B.C. over all men, beasts, and fowl; wherever they were, in the entire globe.
The ships of Tarshish traded grain from Egypt to the western continents, and took back Cocaine and other goods, to Egypt. Cocaine has been found in Mummies.
Berlitz' book, Forgotten Worlds, has pictures and descriptions of great man-made channels at great ancient sea ports, now underwater and broken down, which were made for great ships to enter and dock; to load and unload their trade goods.

Isa 23:1 The burden of Tyre. Howl, ye ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Chittim it is revealed to them. Be still, ye inhabitants of the isle; thou whom the merchants of Zidon, that pass over the sea, have replenished. And by great waters the seed of Sihor, the harvest of the river, [is] her revenue; and she is a mart of nations.

In Saga America, by Barry Fell, there is documented traffic to and from Egypt in the SA continent for centuries B.C. There is even an ancient tablet from SA which tells of the death of a Pharoah, who was the ruler of that ancient SA area, at that time, recorded in that book.

Assyrian · Dec 11, 2008

yeshuasavedme said:
You want to debate the translator, Martinez, not me. Here's his email addy -for you to debate with him. F.Garcia.Martinez@theo.kuleuven.

If he wants to join in the discussion he is very welcome. I wonder what he would think of your interpretation of his work though. Have you contacted him yourself and asked him? Anyway I don't have a problem with his translation, just your reading a concept into it that simply isn't in the Hebrew.

I am attributing the hymns of praise for the degrees of the sun going round the earth and "returning"

Just to point out, I don't have a problem with the Israelites believing the sun went round the earth and the bible being written in terms of that cosmology. They also believed the earth was flat and that the heavens came to an end somewhere past Persia. The problem is that the earth is not flat and that it orbits the sun. That was an issue the church had to deal with at the time of the Reformation. It was Calvin the geocentrist who provided the answer at God spoke to the Israelites in the simple terms they could understand, it is called accommodation.

I am attributing ... , in the DSS to David and the appointed and anointed singers and songwriters for and the Temple, when it stood -and the record in the DSS is that David wrote four thousand hymns.
Also, I am attributing the world war between the sons of God and the sons of belial whcih is written of in the DSS to Enoch's revelation of the end times' great Tribulation, because that is where the information comes from, when fallen angels, demons, devils, and evil men, war against God's Holy Host at the return of Jesus Christ to cleanse the earth of all that offends and to establish the Sabbath Reign of His Peace for this creation.But it is not enough that you attribute them to David and Enoch. You need evidence,

I have given lots of information in my different posts from the Word of God and the record in Jasher [compiled by Moses, mainly, using other patriarch's testaments -of which some bits of those testaments remain in the DSS collections], which show that the entire globe was settled, from the time of Noah's sons' dispersion after the confounding of the mother tongue at Babel, and the subsequent division of the land mass by waters, in the days of Peleg.

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Again is that the book of Jasher mentioned in the bible? How do you know?

By Nabuchadnazzers time, Daniel told Nebuchadnazzer that God had made Nebuchadnazzer "king of kings" over all the earth, wherever man, beast, or fowl dwelt. The western continents and Asia were settled by the sons of Noah's descendents, and the Olmec empire was in decline, in what is now Mexico. Nebuchadnazzer ruled the Olmec Empire, all other western continent empires, and all Asian empires, and the empires of kings in all the globe.
Tht is God's Word. Nebuchadnazzer reigned as king of kings in the 6th century B.C. over all men, beasts, and fowl; wherever they were, in the entire globe.
The ships of Tarshish traded grain from Egypt to the western continents, and took back Cocaine and other goods, to Egypt. Cocaine has been found in Mummies.
Berlitz' book, Forgotten Worlds, has pictures and descriptions of great man-made channels at great ancient sea ports, now underwater and broken down, which were made for great ships to enter and dock; to load and unload their trade goods.

Isa 23:1 The burden of Tyre. Howl, ye ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Chittim it is revealed to them. Be still, ye inhabitants of the isle; thou whom the merchants of Zidon, that pass over the sea, have replenished. And by great waters the seed of Sihor, the harvest of the river, [is] her revenue; and she is a mart of nations.

In Saga America, by Barry Fell, there is documented traffic to and from Egypt in the SA continent for centuries B.C. There is even an ancient tablet from SA which tells of the death of a Pharoah, who was the ruler of that ancient SA area, at that time, recorded in that book.

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Don't the Chinese have written historical records? Wouldn't they have noticed having Nebuchadnezzar as king of kings?

yeshuasavedme · Dec 11, 2008

Assyrian said:
If he wants to join in the discussion he is very welcome. I wonder what he would think of your interpretation of his work though. Have you contacted him yourself and asked him? Anyway I don't have a problem with his translation, just your reading a concept into it that simply isn't in the Hebrew.
You did have a problem with his translation, else why did you object to his translation of the war that will "span the globe" in the tribulation?
I have not interpreted his work: I read the DSS; the writings of 1 Enoch; the Book of Jasher; the OT; and NT and as anyone can do who reads for understanding the times, I cross reference. The translator was not writing a commentary or a cross reference to other works, so your charge is baseless.
I also read the early Church Fathers, secular histories and other Christian historians, who have dug in chronicles of nations and put together timelines of rulers correlated with Bible times -Like Bill Cooper, whose book After the Flood took him 25 years to research.
I also have the advantage of believing God's Word is truth, and do not need to try to make up stories to negate His own statements in His own Word about the history of this creation from the beginning.

Just to point out, I don't have a problem with the Israelites believing the sun went round the earth and the bible being written in terms of that cosmology.
But you do have a problem believing that God believed and spoke in His Word, Himself, stating that the sun goes round the earth in it's circuit; that the sun rises and sets and returns to its chamber, and that He said that He set His tabernacle in the sun, don't you? Isn't this just about your own unbelief, after all, and not about what the Word says?

They also believed the earth was flat and that the heavens came to an end somewhere past Persia.
That is not true.
You have no basis for claiming "the Israelites" believed any such thing, and to say they did is false witness, and is breaking God's Commandment of "not bearing false witness".

The problem is that the earth is not flat and that it orbits the sun. That was an issue the church had to deal with at the time of the Reformation.
It was Calvin the geocentrist who provided the answer at God spoke to the Israelites in the simple terms they could understand, it is called accommodation.
So Calvin was as uninformed as you are, although Calvin was closer to the last dark ages of the world than you are, and may have some excuse for his ignorance, but no excuse for his unbelief in the clear statements of God's Word: -Who was he to tell God what God meant and did? -no one.
But this is not about Calvin, This is about what God said and what the ancient's believed; both before the technological setbacks for the world brought about by the flood, and after the technological advances after the flood; and after the dark ages brought about by the confounding of the mother tongue and the dividing of the land mass by waters, and the dispersion of mankind; then about their technological advances as their civilizations rose up in different places all around the globe, and then the dark ages and destruction of those civilizations all around the globe who had forgot God; for the wicked are turned into hell, and and every nation that forgets God. Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.
The story of Adam is not one of evolution, but of devolution; cast out of the Garden, grubing for a living in a hostile environment, building great cities, rising in technology, and falling; over and over again, in various places all over the globe.

Ecc 1:9 That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun.
Is there anything of which it may be said,
"See, this is new"?
It has already been in ancient times before us.
There is no remembrance of former things,
Nor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come
By those who will come after.

But it is not enough that you attribute them to David and Enoch. You need evidence,
The evidence is in the books. They correlate with the OT and NT.
Enoch wrote of that war to come, before the flood. That is the foundational base of the writings of the prophets of the OT and NT, and in the DSS, about that coming day.
David was well informed of both 1 Enoch and the Book of Jasher [as all the prophets were] and included many things found in them in many of His Psalms, like the Psalm he wrote, recorded in 2 Samuel 22:30 and Psalm 18:29: he is an "anointed and prophetic Psalm writer." He writes of the past happenings and of future happenings; and in that Psalm he writes of Noah's fear and prayer, in the flood, in the first person, and he writes of Judah and brothers running through a troop and leaping on a wall, in the first person, as recorded in Jasher, in the six day war with the Canaanite kings. He writes int eh first person about Jesus on the cross, too, as the anointed prophetic Psalmist who wrote four thousand Psalms.

Again is that the book of Jasher mentioned in the bible? How do you know?
I have proved it for myself. Anyone can. You just need to know the Bible, take up Jasher, and read it with a Bible in hand to correlate it with, Of course, as in the OT, there are some scribal errors, which are self corrected by reading on and which do not change the message and are usually errors involving numbers.

Don't the Chinese have written historical records? Wouldn't they have noticed having Nebuchadnezzar as king of kings?
Of course they would have. God's Word says so. Again, this is really about you just not believing God's Word isn't it? Their rulers were subject to Nebuchadnezzar and paid tribute to him, as all kings of the earth did, when Daniel said Nebuchadnezzar was "king of kings", and "ruled wherever men, fowl, or beast dwel", and that Nebuchadnezzar was represented by "the head of gold", in the dream.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 11, 2008

Psa 19:5 Which [is] as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, [and] rejoiceth as a strong man to run over his highway/pathway.
Psa 19:6 His going forth [is] from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.circuit: תקופה tĕquwphah
1) coming round, circuit of time or space, a turning, circuit

From
נקף1) naqaph ) to go around, compass, round

Assyrian · Dec 12, 2008

yeshuasavedme said:
You did have a problem with his translation, else why did you object to his translation of the war that will "span the globe" in the tribulation?
I have not interpreted his work: I read the DSS; the writings of 1 Enoch; the Book of Jasher; the OT; and NT and as anyone can do who reads for understanding the times, I cross reference. The translator was not writing a commentary or a cross reference to other works, so your charge is baseless.

Of course you are interpreting his work. Just because it is a mechanical literalist interpretation does not mean it isn't an interpretation. I think it is a good translation of the passage into modern idiom that conveys the feel of the original. Your problem is you are reading a meaning into 'spans the globe' that is not in the Hebrew and I suspect the translator never intended. You quote the translator's choice of phraseology as if it were the inerrant and literal word of God, the original Hebrew does not support your interpretation, and it is not even scripture.

I also read the early Church Fathers, secular histories and other Christian historians, who have dug in chronicles of nations and put together timelines of rulers correlated with Bible times -Like Bill Cooper, whose book After the Flood took him 25 years to research.
I also have the advantage of believing God's Word is truth, and do not need to try to make up stories to negate His own statements in His own Word about the history of this creation from the beginning.

From you interpretation of the DSS, it is clear you need to do more than simply believe God's word is true, you need to understand how he speaks to us.

But you do have a problem believing that God believed and spoke in His Word, Himself, stating that the sun goes round the earth in it's circuit; that the sun rises and sets and returns to its chamber, and that He said that He set His tabernacle in the sun, don't you? Isn't this just about your own unbelief, after all, and not about what the Word says?

Interestingly, the only bible I can find that says God set his tabernacle in the sun is a translation of the LXX. In the sun He has set His tabernacle; and He came forth as a bridegroom out of His chamber; He will exalt as a giant to run His course (Complete Apostles' Bible). Any translations of the Hebrew say Their measuring line goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun (ESV). In the heavens a tent is set up for the sun (CEV). In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun (NIV) The tabernacle, or tent, is for the sun, not for God, and God has set the tabernacle for the sun in the heavens.

That is not true.

You have no basis for claiming "the Israelites" believed any such thing, and to say they did is false witness, and is breaking God's Commandment of "not bearing false witness".

How literally do you want to take it? Isaiah 13:5 They come from a distant land, from the end of the heavens, the LORD and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.... 17 Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold.

So Calvin was as uninformed as you are, although Calvin was closer to the last dark ages of the world than you are, and may have some excuse for his ignorance, but no excuse for his unbelief in the clear statements of God's Word: -Who was he to tell God what God meant and did? -no one.

And who are you to tell what God meant and did? Am I to choose between your understanding of God's word and John Calvin's? Not much of a choice yeshuasavedme even though I disagree with Calvin on many issues, I have a deep respect his knowledge and understanding of the word, and all that God did thorough him. Incidentally, I did say Calvin was a geocentrist, it was not over geocentrism that Calvin brought up accommodation, but the passage in Genesis where it says God placed two great lights in the firmament, they knew from astronomy in Calvin's day, this was before Copernicus came alone with heliocentrism, that Jupiter and Saturn were much bigger than the moon. God's message talking about two great lights was given in an accommodation to the astronomical knowledge of the time.

But this is not about Calvin, This is about what God said and what the ancient's believed;

It is about what God said to ancients who believed what they did, the sun going around the earth, the earth being a flat disk, and their being two great lights in the sky. God could have explained it all, but seeing we are still learning about the universe that could have taken some time, and he had more important things to teach that violent little nomadic tribe he called to himself.

both before the technological setbacks for the world brought about by the flood, and after the technological advances after the flood; and after the dark ages brought about by the confounding of the mother tongue and the dividing of the land mass by waters, and the dispersion of mankind; then about their technological advances as their civilizations rose up in different places all around the globe, and then the dark ages and destruction of those civilizations all around the globe who had forgot God; for the wicked are turned into hell, and and every nation that forgets God. Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.
The story of Adam is not one of evolution, but of devolution; cast out of the Garden, grubing for a living in a hostile environment, building great cities, rising in technology, and falling; over and over again, in various places all over the globe.

Ecc 1:9 That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun.
Is there anything of which it may be said,
"See, this is new"?
It has already been in ancient times before us.
There is no remembrance of former things,
Nor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come
By those who will come after.

You should read Gen 4: 20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock.
21 His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe.
22 As for Zillah, she also gave birth to Tubal-cain, the forger of all implements of bronze and iron; and the sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah.

This is talking about a very simply nomadic pastoralist life, the beginnings of musical instruments, and the beginnings of bronze and iron age tools. Not computer technology, flight and atom bombs.

The evidence is in the books. They correlate with the OT and NT.
Enoch wrote of that war to come, before the flood. That is the foundational base of the writings of the prophets of the OT and NT, and in the DSS, about that coming day.
David was well informed of both 1 Enoch and the Book of Jasher [as all the prophets were] and included many things found in them in many of His Psalms, like the Psalm he wrote, recorded in 2 Samuel 22:30 and Psalm 18:29: he is an "anointed and prophetic Psalm writer." He writes of the past happenings and of future happenings; and in that Psalm he writes of Noah's fear and prayer, in the flood, in the first person, and he writes of Judah and brothers running through a troop and leaping on a wall, in the first person, as recorded in Jasher, in the six day war with the Canaanite kings. He writes int eh first person about Jesus on the cross, too, as the anointed prophetic Psalmist who wrote four thousand Psalms.

I have proved it for myself. Anyone can. You just need to know the Bible, take up Jasher, and read it with a Bible in hand to correlate it with, Of course, as in the OT, there are some scribal errors, which are self corrected by reading on and which do not change the message and are usually errors involving numbers.

Don't you think if someone was writing a Book of Jasher they would correlate it with the rest of the bible?

Of course they would have. God's Word says so. Again, this is really about you just not believing God's Word isn't it? Their rulers were subject to Nebuchadnezzar and paid tribute to him, as all kings of the earth did, when Daniel said Nebuchadnezzar was "king of kings", and "ruled wherever men, fowl, or beast dwel", and that Nebuchadnezzar was represented by "the head of gold", in the dream.

And in Paul's time the whole world had heard about the faith of the Christians in Rome. Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world. Except the Irish didn't hear of it for another three centuries, the Chinese for another six, and lets not even talk about Maori and Australian Aborigines. You need to learn how the bible uses the language of the people God is speaking to.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 12, 2008

Assyrian said:
...
The reason the LXX states that He set His tabvernaacle in the sun is because the Hebrew states [He] set [His] Tabernacle [in the [sun]. The Douay Rheims also translated to English from the Vulgate: He hath set His tabernacle in the sun. Translators are not inspired, and when translators translate from personal bias and concensus in ignorance and unbelief, they sin.

Assyrian said:

That is not true. How literally do you want to take it? Isaiah 13:5
They come from a distant land, from the end of the heavens, the LORD and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.... 17 Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold.

The watchers dwell at the end of the heavens. They are the mighty ones who have not fallen and who do God's will on earth. They are involved in all wars, for good or evil, against and among all nations. Gabriel fought the Prince of Persia in the heavenlies [a heavenly ruler set over Persia], and Michael came to "bind" that prince to the wriitten Word of Truth [written in heaven], and then the earthly king of Persia -Cyrus- aided Israel's return.
Daniel 10:21 "I will show you what is noted/written/inscribed in the Scripture of Truth and one binds with me in these things, Michael, your prince. Daniel 11 and 12 are what were written in the Scripture of Truth which the angel showed Daniel about his people which would come, to the end. -Those things were written no place on earth before the angel told them to Daniel, yet the angel told Daniel they were written in the Scripture of Truth. Enoch saw and read the heavenly tablets, which were written for the angels to read about what would befall Adamkind, to the end of this creation.

.

Assyrian said:

God could have explained it all, but seeing we are still learning about the universe that could have taken some time.
Enoch saw it all and exlained it all., by revelation from God. who sent Enoch on a tour of the heavens and the earth [the visible and invisable, to us, earth] by His archangels. Adam was still alive when Enoch received the tour of the heavens and the earth, and the tour of Sheol beneath earth and of chaos -the lake of fire- outside the heavens.
Noah received the writings of Enoch and took them on the Ark.
Abram read from the book of Enoch to the Egyptians when they brought Sarai back and they asked him to teach them wisdom and understanding, as the testament of his life which Abraham wrote, states; and that part is in the DSS in the section labeled the Genesis Apocryphon.
The Egyptians worshipped Amen, the hidden God in heaven, of whom Enoch saw in secret, in heaven, as" the alter ego/another same self" of the Great Glory; and Enoch wrote of Him who was the Son of Man in heaven, was with God and was who God, and who was to come, die, rise, make an end of sin, and redeem the earth and Adam kind and to regenerate all in heaven and in earth and to unite them back with the Father , who is YHWH "not seen" -ever.
The Egyptians turned His truth into a lie; but in Rev 3, Jesus Christ states that He is "the Amen, the faithful and true Witness". One day [after the time of the tribulation], the Egyptians who are of the sheep Gentiles at the end, and be one withthose of Israel who escape the Rod of His wrath at His coming [Ezeliel 20:33-44], along with the Assyrians who are of the sheep Gentiles.

Continued-

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Melethiel · Dec 12, 2008

While a very interesting argument, what does any of this have to do with the OP?

yeshuasavedme · Dec 12, 2008

Melethiel said:
While a very interesting argument, what does any of this have to do with the OP?

The Bible does not teach a flat earth. The ancients did not believe in a flat earth unless they were devolved and ignorant after one of the many dark age set backs which have come on the earth, sent by God on purpose to set Adamkind back, technologically, so that His plan can go forth and all the seed of Adam be born who are written in the Book of Life to be redeemed and adopted sons of God for His regenerated heavens and earth after this present creation is elementally dissolved and reformed.
So what that someone wrote a book about the earth being flat? There is abundant evidence that the Bible teaches geocentrism, and that early inhabitants of the earth knew the earth was a globe. They settle all over it after the Babel dispersion and their civilizations were as great as any "modern" one and greater than many "modern" ones.

Melethiel · Dec 12, 2008

yeshuasavedme said:
The Bible does not teach a flat earth. The ancients did not believe in a flat earth unless they were devolved and ignorant after one of the many dark age set backs which have come on the earth, sent by God on purpose to set Adamkind back, technologically, so that His plan can go forth and all the seed of Adam be born who are written in the Book of Life to be redeemed and adopted sons of God for His regenerated heavens and earth after this present creation is elementally dissolved and reformed.
So what that someone wrote a book about the earth being flat? There is abundant evidence that the Bible teaches geocentrism, and that early inhabitants of the earth knew the earth was a globe. They settle all over it after the Babel dispersion and their civilizations were as great as any "modern" one and greater than many "modern" ones.

However, the OP is not about whether the Bible teaches a flat earth, but comparing the recent flat earth movement to the modern YEC movement.

The flat Earth parallel and other miscellaneous quotes

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