The First Lutheran Pope

[TheCosmicGospel]

Rad quoted Mudinger on Martin Stephan.

I still haven't got copy and paste funtion here. Like why?

But the quote suggested that Martin twisted a new ecclesiology to put himself as Head of Grace among the people. Did the people make him Pope as much as he made himself the Pope?

I think this plays to both the laity and the clergy. I think there were unusual historical circumstances that led to this and do not see it in the same light as Mudinger. I see it as something Martin fell into and was helped as much by the laity giving up their responsibility.

What led to Martin's rise in the eyes of the people? If you do not know the story, you might be surprised. I am sure there is much I do not know.

So let's hear what you think. Begin with his pulpit in Germany and what the people were doing.

Cosmic

 

[filosofer]

Just a note: the guy's name is Mundinger, not Mudinger.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

Well this is a contemplative subject. In fighting pietism, rationalism and unionism Stephans clearly set himself up as a role model even to Walther. What everyone didn't know was that his theology also included a very romanizing view. Beause of his stance of "layin hold of the full, free, unconditional promises of the Gospel of Christ’s full and complete redemption" he impressed Walther who was just beginning to understand Lutheranism. Walther's previous encounter was pieistic in view and because of that Walther was certain of his salvation so he was somewhat gullible. Stephans now had his followers in full sway.

As CosmicGospel said there were a lot of historical variables that affected what happened. I can't remember exactly but I think that the Saxon Lutherans in Prussia where adhering to the pieistic and romaneques view. Also the hardships and exhausting trip to the US took it's toll. The new country was a new and frightful experience because nobody knew what to expect so they needed strong leadership. Stephens fir that role.

Stephans looked and sounded good because he was supposedly so much against the pieistice, rational thought. He put himself up as the bishop of the new group and continued to go deeper into popery. Even as far as to have his followers pledge allegiance to him in writing that he was the ultimate authority. The budget they received from Germany was spent on frivolous spending and high living as was supposed to be accorded a bishop according to Stephans.

Well we all know what happened after that. Stephans was thrown out after the people realized what a bad mistake had been made.

I think that is was probably about 80% that Stephans gained his postion because of his charismatic person and also because people thought that he was "right on" on his theology and they let him have his way on the popery issue because they didn't see the point until it was too late. The other 20% was as CG stated that the people relinquished that right because of what was stated above.

I think the real issue is not necessarily what happen then but what Walther accomplished. His no-nonsence, biblical and confessional approach won the followers back to the true Christian theology. Walther pulled no punches and called a spade, a spade. His forceful defense of Sola Scriptura and Luther's teachings were the crux of his defense. Something that is sorely lacking today.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

The Lutheran State Church fell into another period of hibernation.

One pastor was preaching the Gospel. It started the first Ablaze! movement. People were hungry to hear the Gospel finally. People were walking past their state churches in favor of hearing the Gospel. This set the stage for everything else.

The state church could not tolerate this very long however. So Martin was pushed on and moved to the New Land. Imagine being one of these people captivated by this man and his Gospel "spell" upon you and your family.

You sell everything and are willing to take what must have been a terrifying journey. What does Mu(n)dinger add to this spectacle so far of what led Martin and his followers? It all kind of goes to Martin and his (dare I say it?) two heads!

Interesting read and all.

Peace,
Cosmic

 

[seajoy]

I feel like a dumb Lutheran when listening to you guys. I didn't know any of this stuff.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

I guess what you want us to understand CG is the mirroring effect between what Stephans fostered in his romanizing view and what the LCMS is advocating today. That is the premise that the laity has no "say so" under the PLI program. The pastor being the chief CEO and the laity having no voting privileges and that the pastors are the sole keeper of the keys. Walther did not impress that on the people. All that Walther fought for and that is core to the confessions is now being trumped by some 6000 pastors that are being trained in the PLI. Mundinger expands on Walther's "Church and Ministry" concept here:

"By putting real power into the laymen’s hands the founders of the Missouri Synod nurtured and developed a sturdy and informed laity. The laymen learned by doing. The difficult problem of teaching men and women who had been brought up in the State Church of Germany the task of paying for the maintenance of the Church was solved by giving laymen the privilege and the duty of making important decisions in the Church....The zeal which the early Missouri Synod laymen showed for their Church in that they attended meeting after meeting was produced, no doubt, in part by the fact that these men knew that their decisions were final." ("Government in the Missouri Synod," by Dr. Carl S. Mundinger, CPH, St. Louis, 1947 Page 218-219)

Walther also ascribed to the keys being in the "church" and through the "call" to the pastor.

"Walther accepted principles of church government which his lay opponents had gathered from the writings of Luther. To these he added from Luther certain provisions which safeguarded the dignity of the ministerial office: his transfer theory, the doctrine of the divinity of the call, the absolute authority of the Word of God, and permanence of tenure." ("Government in the Missouri Synod," by Dr. Carl S. Mundinger, CPH, St. Louis, 1947 Page 213)

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

The Pledge of Subjection to Martin Stephan was signed by the Saxons on their way up the river. (Must be some irony in there somewhere). This happened in Feb. 1839. This was not so much as a romanizing idea as it was a pattern of the state church where the pastor was a representative of both the state and church. Stephan was ousted on his rear by May.

But this was formative in Walther's idea of the church as opposed to the authority of a larger body that would impose what a congregation could and could not do.

You can google the Pledge of Subjection and find a good read on this in Concordia Quarterly Journal Ft. Wayne. www.ctsfw.edu/library/files/pb/1417

The synod would be an advisory body in Walther's polity (form of church government). I do not see it as clergy vs. laity in a struggle of control but congregation vs. synod. Mundinger and you may disagree. But with the layers upon layers of governing bodies in the LCMS, the bottom line is this. More and more decesions are made in behalf of both laity and clergy alike by fewer and fewer people.

Loehe was the German homeboy who had a distaste for Walther's polity. He said in short: We have good reason to fear that the strong admixture of democratic, independent, and congregation principles in your constitution will do greater damage than the interference of princes and govermental agencies in the church of the homeland.

It is not the "Pastor as CEO" among us as much as Loehe come back revisited. Plenty of interference. Plenty of govermental agencies. One test is this. When a church pulls out of Synod, who gets the building and property?

Peace,
Cosmic

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

Oh really?

Who doesn't cathecise the children like they did 40 years ago?

Who doesn't want to make waves because they are afraid to lose their retirement, health insurance and can send their kids free to a Lutheran grade school and high school?

Who flocks (about 6000) to PLI training at the expense of their congregation so they can be "boss"?

Who votes in the president and the board with their "yes men" laities support?

Who makes up their minds to allow heresy in the synod?

Who allows the president and COP to take over the synod?

Who allows syncretism and unionism?

Who doesn't equip the saints to keep them dumbed down?

Who allows contemporary services knowing that they are introducing reformed thought?

Who says Walther is not for today and is defunct?

WHo has allowed some districts to remain in communion fellowship with ELCA?

Who doesn't stand against the psycological aspects of St.Louis seminary by Rev. Dr. Salminen who promotes psycological healing?

Who allows the synod to denigrate Walther and the BOC as not being a priority?

Who doesn't warn their parishoners about ELCA?

Who doesn't warn their parishoners about what is going on in LCMS?

Who?

Could it be the 6000 PLI trained, Ablaze members? Or just any pastor?

 

[DaRev]

Who doesn't stand against the psycological aspects of St.Louis seminary by Rev. Dr. Salminen who promotes psycological healing?

When did you graduate from seminary??

Do you know Brian Salminen?

What classes have you taken from him?

Do you even know that he's no longer at the sem?

Maybe you should think before you spout about things that you obviously don't know all that much about.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

Who? WHO??????

Calvin: God
Luther: The devil
Walther: Bureucrats
Rad: The clergy

I know of many in the LCMS that are good and faithful preachers of Word and Sacrament who take their call seriously and do not support Ablaze, PLI, and other such noted nonsense. So you can't just use a big paintbrush and dip everyone in the same bucket. Quite often these are the men who are runover by voters and treated no better than janitors. Abuses are manifold. It is our human nature. Go to your average Bible study. It is pitiful.

I know you are upset and despite your impression, don't really mean to hold every pastor to the wall here. So I give you the benefit. The synod is in spasms, no doubt. I am no longer part of it so, have at it. There are better options out there for me and perhaps you as well Rad.

Peace,
Cosmic

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

OK........ so I hyjacked the thread. Maybe we should get back to the OP.

I havn't noticed anybody else with an opinion?

Something as important as what CG brought up should be discussed.

 

[DaSeminarian]

I must admit that it is easy to believe something negative about someone based on hearsay.

President Kieschnick has been visiting our campus and I took the time to meet him and hear him in Chapel. I was pleasantly surprised but he is a very amiable man.

Whether I agree or disagree with him on theological issues I can't say as I did not have the opportunity to discuss these things with him.

I thereby withhold my views in these areas because I simply don't know his position well enough.

 

[DaRev]

I must admit that it is easy to believe something negative about someone based on hearsay.

President Kieschnick has been visiting our campus and I took the time to meet him and hear him in Chapel. I was pleasantly surprised but he is a very amiable man.

Whether I agree or disagree with him on theological issues I can't say as I did not have the opportunity to discuss these things with him.

I thereby withhold my views in these areas because I simply don't know his position well enough.

Theologically, he seems very Confessional. It's his politics that I have a problem with. He seems to rely more on the politics than the theology, and that is the root of the problem.

 

[porterross]

Go to your average Bible study. It is pitiful.

Might you elaborate on that, Cosmic?

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

Most Bible classes Sunday morning are not that well attended. If the laity is going to have a major influence on the direction of the synod to fight off these heresies, they need to be better prepared to handle the Word. Most parents that I have seen drop off their kids to have their own time.

They do not have good Bible skills because they do not read their Bibles at home and do not attend any studies during the week from what I have seen. I have had congregations of members of 60 and had maybe ten or twelve. And I have had congregations of 300 and had maybe even fewer.

Average might run between 10 to 25%? I am guessing but not very hopeful. You want to be an elder? You have to be in Bible study then. How many congregations would have much of a pool to draw elders in that case.

Yes, we believe the Bible is the Word of God. It is inerrant and all that. We just don't want to bother to know it, live by it, apply it to our church matters. We can vote instead for what we want.

Talk to a Baptist pastor and ask how many members in his church. He will tell you how many go to SS.

Missouri would shrivel up tenfold if we used such accounting of membership. Walther said the church is invisible but has distinguishing marks, Word and Sacrament.

Tell me I'm all wet and I will dive into a bucket of water.

Peace,
Cosmic

 

[seajoy]

I think you are right, Cos. Don't jump in the bucket!

This is not the case where we go to church now, but at the last church we attended, our pastor started a men's bible study, one night per month. Two men attended faithfully, my husband, and one other man.....there was a third that came now and then when he wasn't home taking care of his wife who had cancer. This was in a congregation of 250.
These 3 men had to continually thank the pastor for having the study, because he would nearly be in tears from the lack of interest, each time it was held.

 

[porterross]

OK, thanks for the clarification. I guess our little church here is the exception then. None of our regular members leave after services.
Someone always brings doughnuts and treats for the kids so they can go to their respective classes and we adults attend and enjoy ours. There are enough adults in SS that we have two separate classes with different subject matter.
The men get together Saturday mornings for their own Bible study and our Monday night Bible Study is full or overflowing most of the time. I guess we truly enjoy one another and many of us are so hungry to have a richer understanding and more complete knowledge of the Word that we can't get enough. Of course, there is usually free food involved.

 

[seajoy]

Amen Porter....that's how it is at the church we attend now too!

Bible study attendance should not be contingent on how wonderful the Pastor is, either. God's Word is always wonderful, even if His vessel might not be John the Baptist!

 

[DaRev]

OK, thanks for the clarification. I guess our little church here is the exception then. None of our regular members leave after services.
Someone always brings doughnuts and treats for the kids so they can go to their respective classes and we adults attend and enjoy ours. There are enough adults in SS that we have two separate classes with different subject matter.
The men get together Saturday mornings for their own Bible study and our Monday night Bible Study is full or overflowing most of the time. I guess we truly enjoy one another and many of us are so hungry to have a richer understanding and more complete knowledge of the Word that we can't get enough. Of course, there is usually free food involved.

Oh, to be the pastor of a church like that!

 

[RichardSchultz]

Hi seajoy, You're right, Bible study doesn't depend on the minister but depends more on what commentary, etc. says, and how the teacher "understands" what he's trying to teach. I've got a great story to tell you about the first Bible study I attended. Ultimately it led to my leaving what I thought was a wonderful church. It all boiled down to the Vicar and Pastor defending a professor rather than the word of God. I believe that the state of the visible church is in what is called the great apostacy or the great falling away. May God bless you always and in all ways! Richard