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The first heart?

juvenissun

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This is a question, not a challenge, to biologist or paleontologist (hope there is one around):

What is the species which started to have an organ called "heart"?

It seems fish has a heart. I would assume the first fish (Ordovician?) had a heart too. But anything had heart earlier than that ? Heart is a very important organ of a life. What is the origin of the heart?
 

Wiccan_Child

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This is a question, not a challenge, to biologist or paleontologist (hope there is one around):

What is the species which started to have an organ called "heart"?

It seems fish has a heart. I would assume the first fish (Ordovician?) had a heart too. But anything had heart earlier than that ? Heart is a very important organ of a life. What is the origin of the heart?
It would have been a very early organism: multicellular, and before the division between invertebrates and vertebrates, I would imagine. So something that lived over 600MYA, probably much earlier.

That's my unprofessional opinion :).

EDIT: This article has some information on the evolution of the heart.
 
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Split Rock

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This is a question, not a challenge, to biologist or paleontologist (hope there is one around):

What is the species which started to have an organ called "heart"?

It seems fish has a heart. I would assume the first fish (Ordovician?) had a heart too. But anything had heart earlier than that ? Heart is a very important organ of a life. What is the origin of the heart?

Earthworms have a single chamber heart. It was probably a worm, though I realize that is a rather general term. A heart is simply speaking, a muscled chamber. The first heart would have been a muscle surrounding the major blood vessel in that organism. This evolved into a single chamber heart, which evolved into 2 chambers, three and finally four.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Psalm 14:1
Angels are not fools. Nice try.

You might want to look for a passage that actually has angels in it.

Furthermore, every Christian knows saying something in your heart is a figure of speech.

The ancient Hebrews were not fools either and were well aware that speech comes from the mouth, despite what antisemites claim.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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The ancient Hebrews were not fools either and were well aware that speech comes from the mouth, despite what antisemites claim.

Speech, yes, but they, like all other ANE civilizations considered the heart to be the center of conciousness. And antisemites doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. Unless you're just a troll and words can mean whatever you want them to.
 
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pgp_protector

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Angels are not fools. Nice try.

You might want to look for a passage that actually has angels in it.

Furthermore, every Christian knows saying something in your heart is a figure of speech.

The ancient Hebrews were not fools either and were well aware that speech comes from the mouth, despite what antisemites claim.

So the bible does use Figures of speech and isn't 100% literal?
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Speech, yes, but they, like all other ANE civilizations considered the heart to be the center of conciousness.
This is historically false.

"... [Pythagoras said] that deliberation (nous), and reason (phren), reside in the brain...." -- Diogenes Laertius, historian, 3rd century
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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So the bible does use Figures of speech and isn't 100% literal?
All literature uses figures of speech.

You should be consistent and propose that because Newton and Darwin used figures of speech, analogies, and common metaphors, that therefore the Principia and On the Origin of Species must be rejected wholesale.
 
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laconicstudent

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This is historically false.

"... [Pythagoras said] that deliberation (nous), and reason (phren), reside in the brain...." -- Diogenes Laertius, historian, 3rd century


How about instead of quoting a second hand source, which claims that Pythagoras said something, why don't you quote Pythagoras himself?
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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How about instead of quoting a second hand source, which claims that Pythagoras said something, why don't you quote Pythagoras himself?
Why don't you?
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Because I'm not the one trying to use Pythagoras as evidence, you are.
I'm using the historian Diogenes Laertius as evidence.

Do you claim to know more about ancient history than Diogenes Laertius?
 
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laconicstudent

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I'm using the historian Diogenes Laertius as evidence.

Do you claim to know more about ancient history than Diogenes Laertius?

No, I'm just curious that you would use a secondary source instead of a primary one.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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No, I'm just curious that you would use a secondary source instead of a primary one.
Pythagoras's works were arcane, written in Doric, and burned in antiquity.

"Now, some people say that Pythagoras did not leave behind him a single book; but they talk foolishly; for Heraclitus, the natural philosopher, speaks plainly enough of him, saying, 'Pythagoras, the Son of Mnesarchus, was the most learned of all men in history; and having selected from these writings, he thus formed his own wisdom and extensive learning, and mischievous art.' And he speaks thus, because Pythagoras, in the beginning of his treatise on Natural Philosophy, writes in the following manner: 'By the air which I breathe, and by the water which I drink, I will not endure to be blamed on account of this discourse.'" -- Diogenes Laertius, historian, 3rd century

"... until the time of Philolaus, there were no doctrines of Pythagoras ever divulged; and he [Philolaus] was the first [Greek] person who published the three celebrated books which Plato wrote to have purchased for him for a hundred minae." -- Diogenes Laertius, historian, 3rd century

"There were however certain persons who were hostile to the Pythagoreans, and who rose against them. That stratagems were employed to destroy them ... is universally acknowledged. ... Those who were called Cylonians continued to plot against the Pythagoreans ... they set fire to Milo's residence, where were assembled all the Pythagoreans, holding a council of war. All were burnt, except two, Achippus and Lysis, who ecaped through their bodily vigor." -- Iamblichus, philosopher, 3rd century

"This primary philosophy of the Pythagoreans finally died out first, because it was enigmatical, and then because their commentaries were written in Doric, which dialect itself is somewhat obscure, so that Doric teachings were not fully understood, and they became misapprehended, and finally spurious, and later, they who published them no longer were Pythagoreans. The Pythagoreans affirm that Plato, Aristotle, Speusippus, Aristoxenus and Xenocrates; appropriated the best of them, making but minor changes (to distract attention from this their theft)...." -- Porphyry, philosopher, 3rd century

"Pythagoras's friends then gathered together in the house of Milo the wrestler; and were all stoned and burned when Cylon's followers set the house on fire. Only two escaped, Archippus and Lysis, according to the account of Neanthes." -- Porphyry, philosopher, 3rd century
 
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