The first day of the week -- vs -- "the Lord's day" or the new "Sabbath" in the NEW Testament

BobRyan · Feb 10, 2024

Gary K said:
It's pretty obvious you don't understand the gospel. The good news is that God enables us to keep His law.

Indeed that is part of it - as the NEW Covenant points out in Jer 31:31-34 and in Heb 8.

No wonder Paul writes this in Rom 8 - regarding the saved vs the lost

He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

the depravity of the sinful human nature in the lost state is clearly presented in those verses in Rom 8.

It is contrasted with the New Covenant, Gospel, born-again experience of being lead by the Spirit with the "Law of God written on the heart"

BobRyan · Feb 10, 2024

myst33 said:
I used quotes. Because preaching the Law or Sabbath is not gospel, of course. But you focus on as if it was a gospel.

I focus on it as if
1. the New Covenant exists - Jer 31:31-34
2. As if I actually read it and note the details in it.
3. As if the New Covenant is the Gospel condition of the born-again saved saints.

I leave it to you and others to present the topic of the Law of God as if that alone is the Gospel, rather than the Law written on the heart under the New Covenant.

Bob S · Feb 10, 2024

BobRyan said:
is that a lot of people feel the "need" to ignore the irrefutable details in the OP.

And yet even those opposed to the Bible Sabbath on this thread - admit that the OP is irrefutable.

How is it that the arguments' opposing the Bible Sabbath irrefutable details in the OP -- fail so transparently??

I am pretty sure you read post #36 and like every time I post 2Cor3:6-11 no, old covenant, Sabbath observer responds.

6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
The Greater Glory of the New Covenant
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

As anyone who has studied the English language is able to see, in the above verses, the subject of those verses are the ten commandments or the ministry that brought death. They were the commandments written on stone and came with glory. Verse 7 is not about Moses' head being transitory, as some would like us to believe, it was the ten commandments. Verse 8 explains that the ministry of the Spirit is more glorious than the Ten were. Verse 9 tells us that the ministry of the Spirit brings righteousness, something the ten could not do, All the ten could do is to condemn. Verse 10 reemphasizes that the ten has no glory now and verse 11 again uses the word transitory which means temporary to describe the ten.

The question remains: why God would place the ministry of death in our hearts, as some claim, when He has placed the greater and more glorious Holy Spirit there as our guide?

Gary K · Feb 10, 2024

Bob S said:
I am pretty sure you read post #36 and like every time I post 2Cor3:6-11 no, old covenant, Sabbath observer responds.

6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
The Greater Glory of the New Covenant
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

As anyone who has studied the English language is able to see, in the above verses, the subject of those verses are the ten commandments or the ministry that brought death. They were the commandments written on stone and came with glory. Verse 7 is not about Moses' head being transitory, as some would like us to believe, it was the ten commandments. Verse 8 explains that the ministry of the Spirit is more glorious than the Ten were. Verse 9 tells us that the ministry of the Spirit brings righteousness, something the ten could not do, All the ten could do is to condemn. Verse 10 reemphasizes that the ten has no glory now and verse 11 again uses the word transitory which means temporary to describe the ten.

The question remains: why God would place the ministry of death in our hearts, as some claim, when He has placed the greater and more glorious Holy Spirit there as our guide?

If the it was the law that was vanishing away why does scripture say Mises' face shown so brightly the Israelites couldn't look at him and he had to wear a veil over his face before he could talk to them?

Exodus 24: 32 And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the Lord had spoken with him in mount Sinai.
33 And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.
34 But when Moses went in before the Lord to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.
35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses’ face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

2Cirinthians 3: 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Bob S · Feb 10, 2024

Gary K said:
If the it was the law that was vanishing away why does scripture say Mises' face shown so brightly the Israelites couldn't look at him and he had to wear a veil over his face before he could talk to them?

It was not "if" it was vanishing away, it is the ten did pass away. The ten came with glory, so Moses's face did radiate because of the ten's brightness.

Once again, your argument does not address the body of the paragraph. It seems like Sabbath observers refuse to or are blind to the truth of these verses.

pasifika · Feb 10, 2024

myst33 said:
I used quotes. Because preaching the Law or Sabbath is not gospel, of course. But you focus on as if it was a gospel.

this will be a good topic. yes, the law is not the Gospel, as is not based on Faith..Gal 3.

SabbathBlessings · Feb 10, 2024

Obedience to God is faith- how does one have faith in Him, but not faith to do what He asks. Hebrews 11 the faith chapter is filled with examples of faith- and that faith caused them to listen to God and obey Him.

Gary K · Feb 10, 2024

Bob S said:
It was not "if" it was vanishing away, it is the ten did pass away. The ten came with glory, so Moses's face did radiate because of the ten's brightness.

Once again, your argument does not address the body of the paragraph. It seems like Sabbath observers refuse to or are blind to the truth of these verses.

Hebrews directly ties Moses' glowing face to the veil over the hearts of the Jews of Paul's day which veil is taken away by Christ. That has nothing to do with the law of God other than the Jews not accepting Christ's sacrifice on Calvary.

Bob S · Feb 10, 2024

Gary K said:
Hebrews directly ties Moses' glowing face to the veil over the hearts of the Jews of Paul's day which veil is taken away by Christ. That has nothing to do with the law of God other than the Jews not accepting Christ's sacrifice on Calvary.

Denial!!! It is no wonder you have one foot in the old covenant.

Gary K · Feb 10, 2024

Bob S said:
Denial!!! It is no wonder you have one foot in the old covenant.

So what is the veil that has not been taken away from the hearts of the Jews?

BobRyan · Feb 11, 2024

pasifika said:
this will be a good topic. yes, the law is not the Gospel, as is not based on Faith..Gal 3.

The Law written on the heart is part of the NEW Covenant of both Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12 and the NEW Covenant is the ONE and ONLY - Gospel Covenant.

details matter even when they are inconvenient.

===========================

That is the Law where as Paul said "The first commandment with a promise" is "Honor your father and mother" Eph 6:2

BobRyan · Feb 11, 2024

Bob S said:
The question remains: why God would place the ministry of death in our hearts,

IT is only death for those who are unsaved and still under the old covenant.

By contrast "do not take God's name in vain" is part of the Law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant.
Those who construe the new covenant to be a gateway to taking God's name in vain - do not read it (in fact they almost never quote the text of the New Covenant)

So how you look at it will depend on the POV of the context in which you approach it.

BobRyan · Feb 11, 2024

Bob S said:
I only admitted that there is nothing about Sunday sacredness in the scripture.

I too admit that a few times on this thread.

So go ahead and read post #1.

Bob S said:
God has never told Gentiles we have to observe any day.

Until you read the Bible and see that it is made for "mankind" Mark 2:27 (most of us know that this includes gentiles).
Until you read Is 56:6-8 where gentiles a specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping.
Until you read Is 66:23 where it is ALL MANKIND keeping Sabbath in the New Earth.

No wonder it is GENTILES and NOT Jews asking for MORE Gospel preaching to be "scheduled" for the NEXT Sabbath in Acts 13.

Bob S said:
So, again, what are you trying to prove?

That you are ignoring a boat load of details

Bob S said:
Paul is very clear in 2Cor3:6-11 that we are not under the ten commandments.

You say it - but you have no such quote from Paul.

Would you like another shot at it.???

Bob S said:
The KJV tells us the ten are "done away".

No it does not.

And Paul reminds us that the same unit of TEN remains for all the Christian church in Eph 6:2.

BobRyan · Feb 11, 2024

myst33 said:
The real reason the Seventh Day Adventists are so fixed on this topic

is that a lot of people feel the "need" to ignore the irrefutable details in the OP.

BobRyan said:
Most of us here would agree that the resurrection was on week-day-1 -- (what we call Sunday today).

However when it comes to the New Testament and the weekly day of worship found there --

1. Not ONE text in the NT says "the Sabbath is now kept on the first day of the week"
2. Not ONE text in the NT says "we now keep the first day of the week as the Lord's Day"
3. Not ONE text in the NT says "we meet for worship every week day 1"
4. Not ONE text in the NT says "We meet on week day 1 in honor of the resurrection on week day 1"
5. Not ONE text in the NT says "The Lord's day is on week day 1"
6. Not ONE text in the NT says "Ignore the Commandments of God"
7. Not ONE text in the NT says "ignore scripture, ignore what the Holy Spirit says"

Those points are irrefutable - and you can see how they are avoided in the opposing posts ....

What we DO Find in the NT is
1. "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
2. "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
3. "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
Where "The first commandment WITH a promise is - Honor your father and mother(Ex 20:12) " Eph 6:2

We also find this in the NT
1. "the Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
2. there is only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9
3. The "Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also" Heb 4:2
4. the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 quoted verbatim in Heb 8:6-12
5. Moses and Elijah stand in glory with Christ in Matt 17 - even before the cross.

=========== by contrast EVERY reference to the weekly Sabbath in the NT refers to the seventh day of the week - Saturday

Acts 18:4 4 And he (the Apostle Paul) reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks."

Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul.

======================================

If this is the case - then keeping week-day-1 instead of the seventh day -- as either "the new Sabbath" or as your own personal "Lord's day" is a preference or a later tradition rather than something that comes to us from the actual New Testament.

myst33 said:
more and more threads about the same thing, with the same weak/wrong arguments over and over again

And yet even those opposed to the Bible Sabbath on this thread - admit that the OP is irrefutable.

How is it that the arguments' opposing the Bible Sabbath irrefutable details in the OP -- fail so transparently??

Bob S said:
I am pretty sure you read post #36 and like every time I post 2Cor3:6-11 no, old covenant, Sabbath observer responds.

I simply point out that your rework of 2 Cor 3 does not survive a review of the details. (compare #55 )

BobRyan · Feb 11, 2024

2 Cor3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

And the NEW Covenant according to Paul is the one we find quoted in Rom 8 from the OT in Jer 31:31-34

The Spirit does not delete "do not take God's name in vain" -- because under the NEW Covenant it WRITES the LAW of God on the heart see Jer 31:31-34

without the transforming work of the Holy Spirit - in the new creation , new heart -- the one lead only by the flesh "DOES NOT submit to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN THEY" Rom 8:

5 For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

2 Cor 3: 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

As anyone who has studied the English language is able to see, in the above verses, the subject of those verses is the NEW Covenant vs the OLD Covenant - where both have the ten commandments. And in the case of the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 they are written on the heart by the SPIRIT - but under the OLD covenant they remains external - on tablets of stone alone.

Therefore under BOTH covenants it is always a sin "to take God's name in vain". But under the NEW Covenant - the New Heart (no longer the stony heart) that command is written on the heart - the new creation.

Under the OLD Covenant that same Law known to Jeremiah and his readers in Jer 31:31-34 yet without the Spirit, without the gospel - merely condemns the sinner "for all have sinned" Rom 3:23 and "The ages of sin is death" Rom 6:23

==============================================

No wonder that BEFORE THE CROSS even happens - both Moses and Elijah stand in glory with Christ on the mount of transfiguration. The NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 -

pasifika · Feb 12, 2024

BobRyan said:
The Law written on the heart is part of the NEW Covenant of both Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12 and the NEW Covenant is the ONE and ONLY - Gospel Covenant.

details matter even when they are inconvenient.

yes, not the law written on stone tablets

TPop · Feb 16, 2024

BobRyan said:
Most of us here would agree that the resurrection was on week-day-1 -- (what we call Sunday today).

However when it comes to the New Testament and the weekly day of worship found there --

1. Not ONE text in the NT says "the Sabbath is now kept on the first day of the week"
2. Not ONE text in the NT says "we now keep the first day of the week as the Lord's Day"
3. Not ONE text in the NT says "we meet for worship every week day 1"
4. Not ONE text in the NT says "We meet on week day 1 in honor of the resurrection on week day 1"
5. Not ONE text in the NT says "The Lord's day is on week day 1"
6. Not ONE text in the NT says "Ignore the Commandments of God"
7. Not ONE text in the NT says "ignore scripture, ignore what the Holy Spirit says"

Those points are irrefutable - and you can see how they are avoided in the opposing posts ....

What we DO Find in the NT is
1. "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
2. "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
3. "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
Where "The first commandment WITH a promise is - Honor your father and mother(Ex 20:12) " Eph 6:2

We also find this in the NT
1. "the Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
2. there is only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9
3. The "Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also" Heb 4:2
4. the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 quoted verbatim in Heb 8:6-12
5. Moses and Elijah stand in glory with Christ in Matt 17 - even before the cross.

=========== by contrast EVERY reference to the weekly Sabbath in the NT refers to the seventh day of the week - Saturday

Acts 18:4 4 And he (the Apostle Paul) reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks."

Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul.

======================================

If this is the case - then keeping week-day-1 instead of the seventh day -- as either "the new Sabbath" or as your own personal "Lord's day" is a preference or a later tradition rather than something that comes to us from the actual New Testament.

Is there a Vision of a Halo around the 4th commandment for you? A few here are very concerned about the Saturday Sabbath and teaching on it. Its a different gospel. The sabbath and all the law keeping.

Peace and Blessings

TPop · Feb 16, 2024

myst33 said:
The real reason the Seventh Day Adventists are so fixed on this topic, creating more and more and more threads about the same thing, with the same weak/wrong arguments over and over again, is they simply believe its a salvation issue (but cannot say that clearly, here).

They do not say anything clearly here about the Sabbath and what it means to keep it or failure to keep it.

Peace and Blessings

TPop · Feb 16, 2024

BobRyan said:
Try posting an actual Bible fact in response to the OP where specific details are laid out for you? Why avoid the obvious??

Prove it - post an actual Bible fact in direct response to the OP that you are avoiding.

If this is you -- almost about to respond to the OP -- I look forward to read it.

That is not the topic of this thread.

I believe that as both the Baptist Confession of faith sectn 19 and the Westminster Confession of Faith sectn 19 and as Dies Domini states - the TEN Are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the Jer 31:31-34 NEW Covenant.

But I do not believe that everyone who bows down before images of Mary or who covets or who thinks Sabbath is week-day-1 is lost. (and that is not even the topic of this thread).

Consider actually responding to the OP facts with something that does NOT keep looking like "I AGREE with the OP so can't argue with it - so then lets talk about something else".

hmmm - so you admit you have another topic you wish to discuss. Fine - start a thread on your preferred topic and let's see if your "prediction" is true or not.

As it is your posts look a lot like "I AGREE with the OP irrefutable statements, so I can't argue with it - so then lets talk about something else".

Your posts are becoming very juvenile.

Gary K · Feb 16, 2024

TPop said:
You are very juvenile.

Isn't that called goading?

The first day of the week -- vs -- "the Lord's day" or the new "Sabbath" in the NEW Testament

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