The Fireproof concept

[Avniel]

I watched most of the movie at home, but I don't really care for formula type answers like the journal. There is no substitute (IMO) for two willing and motivated spouses that love and respect one another. The idea that there's this easy way to "turn around" a wayward spouse (I believe the wife in the movie was having an affair and had one foot out the door) and everyone lives "happily ever after" doesn't seem too far removed from Disney's typical story lines.

I guess I've become cynical over the years.

Exactly I like the 180 approach I think the fireproof approach used as a Christian exit Strategy is a better approach. Once the bond is broke I think the expectation of patching things is kinda naive but as Christians I think the trial is needed.

 

[akmom]

Ah yes, the "enabler" wife who allows all sorts of atrocities, then one day decides to leave and uses decades of a spouse's faults to justify it. I had some of those in my extended family too. You know when they finally come to their senses? When the addict/abuser/whatever finally loses his/her income. That is never the reason they give, but it's a perfect coincidence that I've observed. Somehow having their children driven around by drunks doesn't seem so dangerous when that drunk is providing their standard of living. In my opinion, that is a selfish reason to leave. I would argue that there are much better ways to approach these problems; letting them fester for 20 years, pretending you have no recourse whatsoever, and then randomly divorcing one day is not in my opinion an honorable thing to do.

Mental illness is a tough one. Unfortunately things like schizophrenia do tend to manifest in the late 20s, early 30s. Unless there's a family history of it (and there often is), how can you ever predict that? Obviously you can't live with someone who is dangerous, and sometimes there just isn't a treatment. It's very sad. I would like to think that I would be as supportive as possible, even if we couldn't live together or interact normally. Elderly couples often face challenges of a similar nature, as dementia can make a person insane, violent or just plain impossible to live with due to their care needs.

Your wife's descent into deviant behavior must have been very difficult. But do most marriages encounter these kinds of extreme challenges? More than half of marriages end in divorce. I just can't believe they all involve such extreme circumstances. I think more garden-variety selfishness is behind our epidemic of marriage failure, and for that more typical couple, I do think the Fireproof philosophy is realistic.

 

[DZoolander]

I was thinking about it a bit more last night - and I came to the realization that my sample group that I always have looked at isn't as clear cut as I've always kinda believed. Normally, when I think about divorce, I think about my case, my dad's case (with the schizophrenic), another friend of mine with infidelity and the drunk. In most of those cases, I think a really good argument can be made for the fact that it was 100% justified...and in that context something like Fireproof is really naive and just doesn't paint an accurate portrayal of the circumstances in which divorce actually happens.

At the same time, though, as I started to re-evaluate the people I know that have gotten divorced, there are a number of others I just really don't take into consideration. Mostly it's because they're not as good of friends of mine, and I'm not that intimate with them/that knowledgeable about their individual circumstances. So, it's hard for me to evaluate.

There are three others that I know that got a divorce as well...and at least from an outside perspective do know enough to speculate about it (and be comfortable about it) - I do think those two were kinda "shallow" divorces.

So, it could be that my perspective on something like Fireproof isn't as clear cut as I think it is, because I've focused on the ones that circumstantially I'm more knowledgeable about (and as it works out - have been kinda bad).

One of them I'm going to give a brief synopsis of - simply because when they got married it left me scratching my head and wondering "why the heck are they getting married in the first place?" lol

We had a pretty close circle of friends growing up - and there was this one hanger-on girl that slept with pretty much everybody in the group (and a bunch of guys that came/went from the group as well). After we'd all kinda gone to college/started moving away - we found out that one of our buddies was marrying the girl. It was one of the most bizarre marriages ever (from what I heard - because I didn't go...I was off on business when they got married) - insofar as every one of the groomsmen in the wedding party had been with her. The groom, the best man, all of the other guys, etc....and a number of dudes in the audience.

Never quite understood how the guy could've been happy with that...but...

Well that lasted about a year - until she was messing around with one of the groomsmen and sued him for divorce.

 

[DZoolander]

Your wife's descent into deviant behavior must have been very difficult. But do most marriages encounter these kinds of extreme challenges? More than half of marriages end in divorce. I just can't believe they all involve such extreme circumstances. I think more garden-variety selfishness is behind our epidemic of marriage failure, and for that more typical couple, I do think the Fireproof philosophy is realistic.

Actually, in a lot of ways (and I thought about that quite a bit way back when it happened) - I was kinda glad that it evolved in the manner it did with respect to getting a divorce. What I mean by that is not that I was happy that it ended up in a divorce, but rather if a divorce were to happen, that it was that clear cut. It's far easier to believe you're doing the right thing if your wife is asking you "Haven't you ever wanted to hurt someone else, to hit them, to mutilate them?" (and reacting in disbelief when you say "actually, no.") - than if they're simply not buying enough bagels out of spite, ya know?

Having it be that extreme helped me avoid a lot of the indecision and wondering that I see other people going through when they go through their divorces. People always get caught (understandably) in quagmires of wondering "Am I doing the right thing?"...as they should...but once my ex-wife specifically said that it wasn't an aberration...that this is what she wanted to pursue and that it made her happy...any question about whether or not my decision to divorce was right went out the window.

While I did at the start having the same kinds of wonderment about the vows/etc - they were comparatively short lived compared to most others I hear talk.

 

[mkgal1]

That commonly spread idea that half of marriages end in divorce, I think, is a twist of stats.

When I think of all the couples I've known over the years we've been married (which is almost 25 years now) I know just a handful that have divorced. So....just in my circle of influence....I'd say out of all those marriages....only 5% have ended in divorce.

Is it just something unique about my group of family and friends.....can everyone else say they've actually experienced half of the marriages they know of ending in divorce?

 

[DZoolander]

Well, as others have mentioned in here, there are things that are unaccounted for in that statistic.

For example - I have an uncle who married and divorced the same woman 6 times. That went into the aggregate number of "total marriages" and "total divorces".... Then you get things like when the same person marries multiple times - and the statistical probability where if someone has been divorced once - how likely are they to get divorced again? Like my ex-wife. She's been marred multiple times. Another buddy of mine has an ex wife that's been remarried multiple times as well.

So I think a distinction has to be drawn between total marriages - and what your individual odds are if you get married. I think it's something like only 33% of all married people have been through a divorce...not 50%

 

[DZoolander]

That being said - I'm like you. Most of the people I know who have gotten married have stayed married (so far). It's certainly nowhere near half. Rather - I'd say it's more like around 10% of married people I know have ended up divorced.

 

[DZoolander]

Also what I don't know about that statistic (and I should probably look before engaging in conjecture) is how they arrived at it? Did they simply look at 2010 and say "There were one million marriages in 2010" and then in 2011 say "There were 500,000 divorces"?

If so - that's a pretty bad way of looking at it, for obvious reasons.

(and yeah - I should probably work at consolidating my thoughts into one... it's just that I have a thought...make a post....then have another thought...lol)

 

[mkgal1]

Also what I don't know about that statistic (and I should probably look before engaging in conjecture) is how they arrived at it? Did they simply look at 2010 and say "There were one million marriages in 2010" and then in 2011 say "There were 500,000 divorces"?

If so - that's a pretty bad way of looking at it, for obvious reasons.

Okay.....I looked it up (even though I've always wondered, I never went any further than just wondering).

Anyway...here is how they calculate the divorce stats (and it's definitely flawed):

The figure is based on a simple - and flawed - calculation: the annual marriage rate per 1,000 people compared with the annual divorce rate. In 2003, for example, the most recent year for which data is available, there were 7.5 marriages per 1,000 people and 3.8 divorces, according to the National Center for Health Statistics.

The method preferred by social scientists in determining the divorce rate is to calculate how many people who have ever married subsequently divorced. Counted that way, the rate has never exceeded about 41 percent, researchers say. Although sharply rising rates in the 1970's led some to project that the number would keep increasing, the rate has instead begun to inch downward.~http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/19/health/19divo.html?_r=0

 

[bluegreysky]

Ok so general consensus, it looks like we did a "Christian Forums Mythbusters" and determined that though fireproof might have some good concepts, it won't save a marriage in which there's been months or years of fighting/deviance and one or both people have one foot out the door. Especially if it's being used by the one who got dumped.

Maybe I'll study the 40 days of kind activities to keep in mind just for general use, so things never get to that level of ugly (not that our marriage is set to do that)

 

[mkgal1]

Instead of those sorts of activity-based approaches.....what I really liked was Danny Silk's book (and his videos)...Keep Your Love On:

Keep Your Love On: Connection Communication And Boundaries: Danny Silk: 9780988499232: Amazon.com: Books

(I always love reading the reviews ).

 

[akmom]

The Bureau of Vital Statistics has a very descriptive breakdown of divorce rates by several categories (first-second-third-fourth marriages, men vs. women, age at marriage, educational level of each partner, etc.) and it says a lot about expected marital outcome. I'll have to find it.

 

[akmom]

Ah, here it is: Marriage and divorce: patterns by gender, race, and educational attainment : Monthly Labor Review : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

The pertinent information starts in Table 3. It shows the total divorce rate in the U.S. in 2009 was 44.8%. Using these figures, I determined that I have a 62% chance of remaining married by age 46. It's sort of interesting to play with the numbers, and see how our observations of marriage actually compare to the data.

I know when a close friend or family member divorces, I start thinking of all the people I know who have divorced, and start to feel like all the marriages around us have been failures. Then when I am hanging out with other happily married couples, I tend to perceive the overall state of marriage more favorably. I think everyone does that. That's why I like this table so much. It's very specific, and it evaluates the information in just about any way you might want to see it. I'm a data person. I like to be able to see a table derived from large sample sizes like this one. Unfortunately we don't get to see a table like this to evaluate the Love Dare. But I still think it's realistic and Fireproof was a great movie.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I realize it's meant more for couples that have some serious marital issues to mend, but I decided to check out "Fireproof".

We're a new marriage so we're probably just in the "adjustment" period but we've had some minor arguments about stuff the last few days. Stuff like I guess he went along with like a bunch of activities I wanted to do but then he asked me to do something and I was tired and I have a cold so I was like "ugh not now" and he felt put off and blah blah blah...
So yesterday it rained most of the afternoon and I couldn't go to the beach. He of course loves to stay at home and read or watch documentaries so I got my laptop and I was just watching cartoons next to him and junk like that.
Then he went in his office so I was going to use the TV to watch more cartoons and some idea got in my head out of the blue that I should turn off the junkfood TV and do something useful for my marriage,
so I found "Fireproof" was streaming on Netflix and I turned it on.

If you haven't seen it, it's a Christian independent film about a childless couple in GA, married 7 years, he's a fireman and she's some sort of hospital administrator and they don't get along. So she asks for a divorce, and his Christian father introduces him to a 40-day activity journal that should win her back, but half of the the battle is he has to become a Christian so He can love her a new way. Only then did he have a hope of changing her mind.

They made an activity book about the movie (or did they make the movie about the book?) for couples and it's supposed to be especially good if they've drifted apart of if they fight alot.

Basically, the journal he followed in the movie to win her heart, which is the same set of activities in the hands-on book for sale at Barnes and Noble, has activities each day like
- Go all day without saying something mean
- Do something nice for her, just because
- Pray for her

I was just wanting to ask if any of the more seasoned married couples on here ever used Fireproof to mend a problem and what y'all thought of it's effectiveness.

The movie is awful.

The book based on the movie is awful.

The theory, which is actually mainstream psychology and marriage building techniques from the 1970s, which were very secular, but then repackaged and re-branded to appeal to Christians as a marketing ploy are effective for some... But I find the blatant gimmickyness of it to be insulting thus I strongly dislike that as well.

if it works for you, fantastic. Personally, I think there's better stuff out there that's more effective that doesn't have the dubious ethics that surround making a secular product Christian as a marketing tactic to get money from Christians desperate to have "God centered" marriages.

 

[mkgal1]

Personally, I think there's better stuff out there that's more effective that doesn't have the dubious ethics that surround making a secular product Christian as a marketing tactic to get money from Christians desperate to have "God centered" marriages.

I whole-heartedly agree.

I was thinking more about the divorces that I personally know enough about (people that I'm close to....or *was* close to while they were going through that) and I thought about one couple.

I actually sort of blame "the church" (not His Church--I don't believe), because of what was being taught at the church the husband began attending. They held the common, "if you sacrifice----God will 'bless you' and your life" attitude. Not on coincidence---I don't think--they were also trying to raise funds for a new multimillion dollar building. The husband was wanting to mortgage their house that they owned, and then give that money to the church (it reminded me a lot of Sapphira and Ananias). He got that idea from a lot of other couples that were standing up at church, and giving their "testimonies" of how God had "blessed them" for doing so. That was only one of their points of contentions....of course, but a lot of his beliefs were causing major differences.

He now is very bitter, because he never got his "rewards" for his sacrifices (they did divorce---and he did mortgage his home and give the $$ to the church). Not only did he lose his marriage.....the respect of his children.....but he also has (hopefully, temporarily) turned away from God.

 

[DZoolander]

Which actually is really sad - because church has nothing to do with God whatsoever. No church does. Want to improve your spiritual life, and relationship with God, many fold in just one step? Stop listening to others yap on about God. Subjugate your authority on God to no-one, and nothing else.

I stopped going to church when I was a young teenager - because I was tired of hearing about what a loathsome despicable wretched creature I was, undeserving of His love. I got tired of the focus on what I, or anyone else, chose to do with my (or their) bits...and in my older years realize that was truthfully one of the best decisions I think I've ever made (right up there with the choice to get a divorce, in fact).

Occasionally I'll go back for a Christmas service, however, simply for the nostalgia aspect of it.

I remember, though, one year I was having a big bout with myself about my feelings w/respect to church. It was near Christmas time, and I was kind of longing for that old feeling of community, so I went back to my old church for the children's Christmas service that I used to participate in.

It took about 10 minutes to remember why I detested church so much. They trotted out this 2nd or 3rd grade girl to play the part of Mary - and the first thing out of her mouth was something to the effect of "How can I, the lowly and dirty sinner I am, be expected to fulfill His wishes? How can I even begin to fulfill His requirements of me?"

Something about hearing an 8 year old girl going on about what a "wretched sinner" she is just re-inspired the distaste I had for the church all over again - and I haven't been back since. The one saving grace is that at 8-9 years old, I don't think you fully comprehend the depth of meaning behind the things you say - but give it time.

That, and the just flat out shameless money-grubbing stuff really burns my britches. lol

Don't get to say that phrase every day so figured might as well...and I'd have far stronger words if I weren't on this site. lol But yeah - I feel for your friend.