Just as much evidence as you have that there couldn't be alternate timelines and multiple universes.
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The fine tuning of the universe.
- Thread starter Oncedeceived
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No. Didn't you get the memo? The fine tuning argument is in no way an argument from ignorance.
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Yes, you are correct, there is no evidence on either side. If the universe could only be the way it is, the fine tuning is still fine tuning. If the variable could be different but are what they are then the fine tuning is still fine tuning. So how does either dismantle or eliminate fine tuning? If you want to postulate other universes with other fundamental constants then why is ours what it is to permit life? If you postulate other universes the majority are lifeless all together with no complex life at all. So how does this question affect fine tuning in your estimation?
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How does that eliminate the fine tuning in this one? You have no evidence that they could or couldn't be different we have only the evidence of fine tuning in this universe.
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![[serious]](/data/avatars/m/160/160873.jpg?1431539545){kind=avatar}
They either can be different, or they can't. If they can't be any different, the odds of them being what they are is 1. No tuning needed.
If they can be different, all that's needed is one universe in which they are just right. Given infinite universes (per one of your sources) one is assured to be just right. Actually, an infinite number are. The odds of us being in one of the universes in which we can exist is likewise 1.
The only way you can get to a tuned result is if:
1. The laws/constants can be different than they are, and
2. there are a finite, and suitable small number of universes.
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The fact that they are what they are and can't be different does not eliminate the fine tuning and there is no physical law that provides explanation for them to be what they are so fine tuning remains unexplained. That is why the multiverse is being proposed. We know from experimentation in computer modeling that if the fundamental constants were not what they are life would not exist, so the question remains that why is our universe so fine tuned to permit life?
We know of only one universe. While there could possibly be other universes the original universe would have to have the fine tuned parameters that allow for our universe to permit life. And actually there are not an infinite number of universes that permit complex life, the opposite is actually true.
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I think the error being made here is to conflate fine tuning, the term used in the discussions to describe a set of constants that allow for life as we know it. ..and fine tuning as a verb done by a subject (in our discussion by God ). If the constants could not have been different then we still have sense 1 but no need for sense 2.
So yes the fine tuning is still the fine tuning but there would have been no fine tuning needed
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Why would there be no need of fine tuning?I think the error being made here is to conflate fine tuning, the term used in the discussions to describe a set of constants that allow for life as we know it. ..and fine tuning as a verb done by a subject (in our discussion by God ). If the constants could not have been different then we still have sense 1 but no need for sense 2.
So yes the fine tuning is still the fine tuning but there would have been no fine tuning needed
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That´s a good question. You should eventually try to tell us the "how´s" of your hypthesis.
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You made the claim that the universe tuned itself, what do you have that supports that premise?
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No, I didn´t. I just explained Athees post to you.
The evidence for the universe being fine tuned (1) is the fact that it is fine tuned (1) - the very fact you keep appealing to.
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Only no need for the second sense. Imagine I want to draw the ace of spades out of a deck. As a magician I am very capable of controlling that card to the top or bottom (or almost anywhere actually
) but from a shuffled deck of cards it takes a bit of work to get that ace. Now if the deck only has one card and that card is the ace of spades then I don't need to do anything to get the result of drawing the ace of spades.
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Just because there is only one universe doesn't mean that it could be easily life permitting. There are nearly 30 fundamental constants that permit complex life and most are independent and many are necessary to be precisely what they are to work with others.Only no need for the second sense. Imagine I want to draw the ace of spades out of a deck. As a magician I am very capable of controlling that card to the top or bottom (or almost anywhere actually
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Yes, I did.
i said "they were fine-tuned all by themselves (as in: this didn´t require a fine-tuning agency)", I did not say "they fine-tuned themselves".
It´s the very difference you don´t understand when trying to interprete "fine-tuning" in scientifc sources:
the difference between "they are fine-tuned" (1) and "they have been fine-tuned"(2).
It´s about the same difference as between "he is offended" and "he has been offended".
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