The fine tuning of the universe.

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, I agree.

My only point is, that there is nothing TO explain about the idea that things that exist, exist in such a way that they actually can exist - or they wouldn't exist.

Oncedeceived seems to be suggesting the opposite..

The complaint I am hearing is similar to the "completely formed" nonsense I hear from those that reject science.
When you show them an eye that is no 'completely formed' in the sense that it is no complex as the eyes of other species, they will still complain that it works and therefore 'completely formed'. They have their blinders on and refuse to see. I think that this argument is simply being used to keep the "blinders" on in regards to the existence of gods.

 

[PsychoSarah]

It's not an assumption. It is the hypothesis.

The idea that this universe was in some sense a "fix", as Paul Davies put it, arose when astrophysicists played around, asking themselves what would happen if they varied the fundamental constants a bit (without coming up with a whole new set of physical laws). The answer they discovered, to their surprise, was that the whole thing would fall apart.

Based on our understanding of physics, and that also would just make it more likely that any given universe that would develop and stabilize would be capable of harboring life.

 

[lesliedellow]

Based on our understanding of physics, and that also would just make it more likely that any given universe that would develop and stabilize would be capable of harboring life.

Universes, if we can talk about them in the plural, don't develop and stabilise. Either they are destined to remain sterile (the absolutely overwhelming majority), or they are "just right" for the formation of the heavier elements, and then possibly life.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Universes, if we can talk about them in the plural, don't develop and stabilise. Either they are destined to remain sterile (the absolutely overwhelming majority), or they are "just right" for the formation of the heavier elements, and then possibly life.

How do you know that the collapsing thing is even an event that happens? Just because we can imagine it doesn't make it likely. It's just as probable that every universe is in that "just right" range, for all we know. Demanding that all potential physics combinations are valid in the model is predicated on information we do not have, which is that there is randomness to what physics universes have. It's entirely possible that we live in an average, typical universe, and that the ones that fall apart are deviant.

But hey, continue to perpetuate this frustrating trend of treating speculation like actual hypotheses that work to represent reality.

 

[Robert Palase]

I think that this argument is simply being used to keep the "blinders" on in regards to the existence of gods.

The existence of Gods has never been in doubt, there are none, if anyone knows differently then please don't hesitate to tell us of the Gods that exist and where they are.
An answer like 'I have a pet dragon but you can't see it because it's invisible' will not cut it.

 

[lesliedellow]

How do you know that the collapsing thing is even an event that happens? Just because we can imagine it doesn't make it likely. It's just as probable that every universe is in that "just right" range, for all we know. Demanding that all potential physics combinations are valid in the model is predicated on information we do not have, which is that there is randomness to what physics universes have. It's entirely possible that we live in an average, typical universe, and that the ones that fall apart are deviant.

But hey, continue to perpetuate this frustrating trend of treating speculation like actual hypotheses that work to represent reality.

Some physicists try to argue that the universe is the way it is because it is the only one which could exist, but there is no evidence of that being the case, and some indication that it isn't. Those other universes can, after all be modelled, and there is no apparent inconsistencies within them.

 

[lesliedellow]

The existence of Gods has never been in doubt, there are none

Now how, exactly, would you know that? If it is so blindingly obvious, how come some of the most intelligent people around have failed to notice the fact?

 

[quatona]

How come some of the most intelligent people believe that their spouse is the best man/woman in the world?

 

[Robert Palase]

Now how, exactly, would you know that?

In the same way we both know there are no fire breathing dragons, Phoenix, Centaurs or other imagined things,
how, exactly, would you know that they don't exist? how, exactly, would you know that all the Gods other than yours don't exist?

If it is so blindingly obvious, how come some of the most intelligent people around have failed to notice the fact?

Because most were indoctrinated into believing that Gods existed when they were young and the others were either desperate or wanted an answer to an un-answerable question.

Perhaps you could tell me something, why should/would there be Gods?

 

[lesliedellow]

In the same way we both know there are no fire breathing dragons.

We know there are no fire breathing dragons because they are physically impossible.

Because most were indoctrinated when they were young and the others were desperate for an answer to an un-answerable question.

Francis Collins for one can't be made to fit into that category.

 

[Robert Palase]

We know there are no fire breathing dragons because they are physically impossible.

Physically impossible? that's just so sad.

 

[lesliedellow]

Physically impossible? that's just so sad.

How do you suppose the said dragon would avoid combusting itself?

 

[joshua 1 9]

Repeating nonsense does not make it so. Gods are human inventions, not the other way around.

Oh I fully believe you that your concept of God is 100% a "human invention".

 

[joshua 1 9]

Life adjusts to changes in the environment around it, not the other way around.

What about the great oxygenation event?

 

[Oncedeceived]

No, but I am aware what the field, purpose and limitations of science are.
Science is about how things work within this existing observable universe. It starts at a point where the parameters in question are already a given.

That is what we are doing, talking about this universe.

 

[joshua 1 9]

For all I know, there is a universe in which all laws of physics are backwards, and life STILL forms there in some manner.

Maybe there is a universe filled with angels and demons that somehow has an effect on the universe that we live in.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I wished both atheists and creationists would read a book like Paul Davies' Goldilocks Enigma before making irrelevant posts.

This seriously looks like what some creationists say when discussing evolution. They make such uninformed comments that you cringe and wish they would at least read something about it before commenting...the same thing with this.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Oh, baloney. I'm not about to fall for that. Indeed, this is precisely why I have trouble with your posts. You are continually claiming that you are so much smarter and wiser than all these experts and now everyone else.

AV1611VET is smarter then me. My IQ is only about 140 or 145. Most people are idiots. When I was having congestive heart failure I went to the doctor and he diagnosed me as having acid reflex. The smart thing to do would have been for him to send me straight to an emergency room with a cardio department so a real heart doctor could evaluate the situation. That is why doctors are the third leading cause of death because of the mistakes and errors that they make.

You can deny God but if it were not for God I would not be alive and here having this conversation with you. It was not man that saved me. God is the one that saves us and is there for us in our time of need.

 

[Oafman]

That is why doctors are the third leading cause of death because of the mistakes and errors that they make.

They should be abolished!

 

[Robert Palase]

How do you suppose the said dragon would avoid combusting itself?

What is sad is that you have lost it completely.