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The fine tuning of the universe.

lesliedellow

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But that only shows that it is a matter of opinion. Those few physicists that believe that have not been able to justify their beliefs.

In the words of one of them, "evidence can be persuasive without being conclusive." Naturally, it would be harder to persuade an atheist than a theist. That doesn't make the atheists more objective; it just makes them biased in the opposite direction.


In other words they can't show how these so called fine tuned parameters were necessary for a god.

I think you have got that the wrong way round for your intended meaning.


We do not even know if all of these parameters are variable or if they are at a fixed level because of deeper physical laws. I am not a physicist, but I do believe that essential saltes can name some of these early "parameters" that have been solved. They are not possibly variable as first thought.

It may be that all the parameters are not independent of one another, in the same way that the permeability of free space, the permitivity of free space and the speed of light represent only two independent parameters, and not three. But the ones that are left would still need to be fine tuned to incredible tolerances.
 
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AirPo

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Lets see what you are having difficulty with here. What do you think "fine tuned" means and where do you think the concept arose?
This is as good as any:

fine-tune
vb
(tr) to make fine adjustments to (something) in order to obtain optimum performance
 
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Oncedeceived

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Exactly what do you think that I am unaware of? Your inability to understand posts does not mean that person does not understand something.
1. You said: And how do the majority of scientist in the field agree that it is real? I have not seen any evidence of that.
Here are some examples of pertinent scientists that agree fine tuning is real.

Frank Wilczek: life appears to depend upon delicate coincidences that we have not been able to explain. The broad outlines of that situation have been apparent for many decades. When less was known, it seemed reasonable to hope that better understanding of symmetry and dynamics would clear things up. Now that hope seems much less reasonable. The happy coincidences between life’s requirements and nature’s choices of parameter values might be just a series of flukes, but one could be forgiven for beginning to suspect that something deeper is at work. http://www.frankwilczek.com/Wilczek_Easy_Pieces/391_Enlightment_Knowledge_Ignorance_Temptation.pdf

Hawking: “Most of the fundamental constants in our theories appear fine-tuned in the sense that if they were altered by only modest amounts, the universe would be qualitatively different, and in many cases unsuitable for the development of life. … The emergence of the complex structures capable of supporting intelligent observers seems to be very fragile. The laws of nature form a system that is extremely fine-tuned, and very little in physical law can be altered without destroying the possibility of the development of life as we know it.” 'The Grand Design' by Stephen Hawkings

Martin J. Rees: Any universe hospitable to life – what we might call a biophilic universe – has to be ‘adjusted’ in a particular way. The prerequisites for any life of the kind we know about — long-lived stable stars, stable atoms such as carbon, oxygen and silicon, able to combine into complex molecules, etc — are sensitive to the physical laws and to the size, expansion rate and contents of the universe. Indeed, even for the most open-minded science fiction writer, ‘life’ or ‘intelligence’ requires the emergence of some generic complex structures: it can’t exist in a homogeneous universe, not in a universe containing only a few dozen particles. Many recipes would lead to stillborn universes with no atoms, no chemistry, and no planets; or to universes too short-lived or too empty to allow anything to evolve beyond sterile uniformity. http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0401424v1.pdf

Andrei Linde: the existence of an amazingly strong correlation between our own properties and the values of many parameters of our world, such as the masses and charges of electron and proton, the value of the gravitational constant, the amplitude of spontaneous symmetry breaking in the electroweak theory, the value of the vacuum energy, and the dimensionality of our world, is an experimental fact requiring an explanation. http://arxiv.org/abs/0705.0164

Leonard Susskind: The Laws of Physics … are almost always deadly. In a sense the laws of nature are like East Coast weather: tremendously variable, almost always awful, but on rare occasions, perfectly lovely. … [O]ur own universe is an extraordinary place that appears to be fantastically well designed for our own existence. This specialness is not something that we can attribute to lucky accidents, which is far too unlikely. The apparent coincidences cry out for an explanation. Note: So far it looks like he was wrong about String theory and of course I believe He is wrong about ID.

Now this is just a few and I could add many many more. Is it necessary or are you now aware that the majority of scientists think fine tuning is a real phenomena?


Please, no false accusations.
It isn't false. You were the first one to bring in "Creationists" as a general group claiming ignorance. Remember?




Now you are simply demonstrating a lack of understanding of the history of physics. This particular argument began around then.
Then provide me with any evidence of this before the dates I gave you.
 
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Oncedeceived

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But that only shows that it is a matter of opinion. Those few physicists that believe that have not been able to justify their beliefs. In other words they can't show how these so called fine tuned parameters were necessary for a god. We do not even know if all of these parameters are variable or if they are at a fixed level because of deeper physical laws. I am not a physicist, but I do believe that essential saltes can name some of these early "parameters" that have been solved. They are not possibly variable as first thought.

The parameters we are discussing are called the fundamental constants, they are not variable and their measurements are conclusive.
 
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Oncedeceived

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The unsupported assertion that the Universe was fine tuned.
Did you read the post I posted to SZ? It is not an assertion, it is supported by the measurements of the fundamental constants and the necessary elements for the universe and life as we know it to exist.
 
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quatona

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Did you read the post I posted to SZ? It is not an assertion, it is supported by the measurements of the fundamental constants and the necessary elements for the universe and life as we know it to exist.
In this meaning, the universe is fine-tuned for life in the same way a lottery is fine-tuned to draw the very numbers it has just drawn, or the universe was fine-tuned for this very rain drop to hit my nose.
 
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quatona

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Yes, it most certainly is. Beyond a doubt. Here are a few examples which if different the universe wouldn't exist:

Stephen Hawking states, “If the rate of expansion one second after the big bang had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million, the universe would have re-collapsed before it ever reached its present size.”
...and yet you are playing dumb when I mention that "fine-tuning" implies alternatives?

In the formation of the universe, the balance between matter and antimatter, and the excess of matter over antimatter, needed to be accurate to one part in ten billion for the universe to arise.
Ok, so let´s call any outcome of low probability "fine-tuned" and move on.
 
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Subduction Zone

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1. You said: And how do the majority of scientist in the field agree that it is real? I have not seen any evidence of that.
Here are some examples of pertinent scientists that agree fine tuning is real.

Frank Wilczek: life appears to depend upon delicate coincidences that we have not been able to explain. The broad outlines of that situation have been apparent for many decades. When less was known, it seemed reasonable to hope that better understanding of symmetry and dynamics would clear things up. Now that hope seems much less reasonable. The happy coincidences between life’s requirements and nature’s choices of parameter values might be just a series of flukes, but one could be forgiven for beginning to suspect that something deeper is at work. http://www.frankwilczek.com/Wilczek_Easy_Pieces/391_Enlightment_Knowledge_Ignorance_Temptation.pdf

Hawking: “Most of the fundamental constants in our theories appear fine-tuned in the sense that if they were altered by only modest amounts, the universe would be qualitatively different, and in many cases unsuitable for the development of life. … The emergence of the complex structures capable of supporting intelligent observers seems to be very fragile. The laws of nature form a system that is extremely fine-tuned, and very little in physical law can be altered without destroying the possibility of the development of life as we know it.” 'The Grand Design' by Stephen Hawkings

Martin J. Rees: Any universe hospitable to life – what we might call a biophilic universe – has to be ‘adjusted’ in a particular way. The prerequisites for any life of the kind we know about — long-lived stable stars, stable atoms such as carbon, oxygen and silicon, able to combine into complex molecules, etc — are sensitive to the physical laws and to the size, expansion rate and contents of the universe. Indeed, even for the most open-minded science fiction writer, ‘life’ or ‘intelligence’ requires the emergence of some generic complex structures: it can’t exist in a homogeneous universe, not in a universe containing only a few dozen particles. Many recipes would lead to stillborn universes with no atoms, no chemistry, and no planets; or to universes too short-lived or too empty to allow anything to evolve beyond sterile uniformity. http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0401424v1.pdf

Andrei Linde: the existence of an amazingly strong correlation between our own properties and the values of many parameters of our world, such as the masses and charges of electron and proton, the value of the gravitational constant, the amplitude of spontaneous symmetry breaking in the electroweak theory, the value of the vacuum energy, and the dimensionality of our world, is an experimental fact requiring an explanation. http://arxiv.org/abs/0705.0164

Leonard Susskind: The Laws of Physics … are almost always deadly. In a sense the laws of nature are like East Coast weather: tremendously variable, almost always awful, but on rare occasions, perfectly lovely. … [O]ur own universe is an extraordinary place that appears to be fantastically well designed for our own existence. This specialness is not something that we can attribute to lucky accidents, which is far too unlikely. The apparent coincidences cry out for an explanation. Note: So far it looks like he was wrong about String theory and of course I believe He is wrong about ID.

Now this is just a few and I could add many many more. Is it necessary or are you now aware that the majority of scientists think fine tuning is a real phenomena?

Perhaps I should have been clearer. They are not using this in the same way that you are. None of these physicists seem to think that it is evidence for a deity.

It isn't false. You were the first one to bring in "Creationists" as a general group claiming ignorance. Remember?

And I have yet to see a creationist that is not ignorant, especially when it comes to biology and geology. Of course this is not a creationist subject that we are debating right now. It is more an existence of god argument. I am not trying to disprove any gods, I am just pointing out that this does not support their existence.


Then provide me with any evidence of this before the dates I gave you.

I did. And if you had read that article I linked that your quote came from you would have understood that.[/quote][/quote]
 
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Subduction Zone

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The parameters we are discussing are called the fundamental constants, they are not variable and their measurements are conclusive.

We don't know that yet because our universe is the only one that we can observe. They are invariable in our universe. That does not mean that they are invariable. And the question is do they have to be at the value that they are, if so no god is needed, or as you seem to think did some god set them? By claiming that they are "invariable" you actually negate your "fine tuning" argument.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Did you read the post I posted to SZ? It is not an assertion, it is supported by the measurements of the fundamental constants and the necessary elements for the universe and life as we know it to exist.

Perhaps one reason that you are getting so much flak from others is because you seem to be making an equivocation error with the term "fine tuned" your definition does not appear to be that of physicists.
 
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Oncedeceived

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In this meaning, the universe is fine-tuned for life in the same way a lottery is fine-tuned to draw the very numbers it has just drawn, or the universe was fine-tuned for this very rain drop to hit my nose.
This argument doesn't stand up well in this case. While it might be the case that the probability of Some universe coming into existence might be somewhat high, the life permitting universe is very low from what we've observed. In the millions and millions of possible universes that would either fail or which would prohibit life and none that would succeed and sustain life, then the probability of a life permitting universe such as our coming into being is not at all the same as any other universe coming to be. It is very rare and the probability unimaginably lower. That is why some scientists have proposed the multiverse to explain why this rare and implausibly fine tuned universe permitting life exists.

The problem with the multiverse for an explanation is that it only pushes the problem back and doesn't satisfy the fine tuned argument for the original universe that gives rise to the others.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Perhaps one reason that you are getting so much flak from others is because you seem to be making an equivocation error with the term "fine tuned" your definition does not appear to be that of physicists.
No, it is the physicists that gave it that name.
 
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Oncedeceived

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We don't know that yet because our universe is the only one that we can observe. They are invariable in our universe. That does not mean that they are invariable. And the question is do they have to be at the value that they are, if so no god is needed, or as you seem to think did some god set them? By claiming that they are "invariable" you actually negate your "fine tuning" argument.
I don't even know what you mean by this. How would other universes make them variable? That doesn't make sense to me.
 
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quatona

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This argument doesn't stand up well in this case. While it might be the case that the probability of Some universe coming into existence might be somewhat high, the life permitting universe is very low from what we've observed. In the millions and millions of possible universes that would either fail or which would prohibit life and none that would succeed and sustain life, then the probability of a life permitting universe such as our coming into being is not at all the same as any other universe coming to be.
Well, each of these possible universes would have particular properties that would be equally improbable.
The fact that it was me who won the lottery doesn´t change the fact that all possible outcomes were equally improbable - despite my personal amazement about being the lucky one.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Perhaps I should have been clearer. They are not using this in the same way that you are. None of these physicists seem to think that it is evidence for a deity.
That does make your position clearer but you are wrong. There are physicists that do think it is evidence for God and in fact, even those who don't believe that God exists still think it is a valid explanation.



And I have yet to see a creationist that is not ignorant, especially when it comes to biology and geology. Of course this is not a creationist subject that we are debating right now. It is more an existence of god argument. I am not trying to disprove any gods, I am just pointing out that this does not support their existence.
How many creationists do you know? You do realize that there are prominent scientists that actually do believe in creation by God?




I did. And if you had read that article I linked that your quote came from you would have understood that.
I missed it. Would you mind posting it again.
 
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