The Final Solution

[PsychoSarah]

The "final solution" has a LOT to do with evolution. They wiped out millions of people of our species. It has everything to do with the theory of selective or artificial breeding. Just like the slaves in south american were subject to selective breeding. That is very much one of the evolutionary theories. It was a part of Darwin's theory of natural selection.

This is like saying that Gravitational theory is bad because some people fall to their deaths. It is up to us, not the theory, to use it properly and avoid being hurt by its principles. Any scientific theory can be used for evil purposes.

 

[joshua 1 9]

This is like saying that Gravitational theory is bad because some people fall to their deaths. It is up to us, not the theory, to use it properly and avoid being hurt by its principles. Any scientific theory can be used for evil purposes.

Newtons theory of gravity has been replaced with Einstein's theory. It is no longer a pull as in attraction it is now a result of a push.

 

[joshua 1 9]

av

thanks to the evolutionary processes that made us smart.

There is no evidence that it was evolution that made us smart. There is no evidence that consciousness is in the brain. Although only a few people have an alternate theory of consciousness.

 

[PsychoSarah]

av
There is no evidence that it was evolution that made us smart. There is no evidence that consciousness is in the brain. Although only a few people have an alternate theory of consciousness.

The evidence that consciousness is in the brain is that it changes shape when we learn, and that damaging it takes away knowledge.

 

[joshua 1 9]

The evidence that consciousness is in the brain is that it changes shape when we learn, and that damaging it takes away knowledge.

The brain changes shape? There is activity that goes on in the brain. There is activity going on in my computer, but the web site we are communicating on is not in my computer.

 

[PsychoSarah]

The brain changes shape? There is activity that goes on in the brain. There is activity going on in my computer, but the web site we are communicating on is not in my computer.

Yeah, the brain changes shape with every new thing learned. That's how memories are stored; as configurations of neurons. You can even estimate a brain's age by it's shape, and tell if someone is bilingual.

 

[Butterfly99]

Which all goes to show that Darwin's theory is very questionable.

What the heck.

Are you being for real in this thread?

 

[joshua 1 9]

What the heck.

Are you being for real in this thread?

I do not have an agenda. This is a science forum so we need to stay within that parameter in talking about this subject. I know quite a few people that were a part of the holocaust so it is a very real subject for me. As I said my dad was stationed in Germany right after the war and he was one of the first to see the concentration camps there as the world began to find out about what was going on there in Germany.

When we study evolutionary theory or if we study the final solution, we have evidence we have to examine and to form an opinion about. The point is the final solution in Germany was the solution they came up with given what they had to work with at the time. Evolutionary theory is a theory that we have developed given what we have to work with. They are both conclusions that people come to given what we have to work with.

 

[Butterfly99]

I do not have an agenda. This is a science forum so we need to stay within that parameter in talking about this subject. I know quite a few people that were a part of the holocaust so it is a very real subject for me. As I said my dad was stationed in Germany right after the war and he was one of the first to see the concentration camps there as the world began to find out about what was going on there in Germany.

When we study evolutionary theory or if we study the final solution, we have evidence we have to examine and to form an opinion about. The point is the final solution in Germany was the solution they came up with given what they had to work with at the time. Evolutionary theory is a theory that we have developed given what we have to work with. They are both conclusions that people come to given what we have to work with.

It just feels super disrespectful to me to try to use the Holocaust as a reason to be against evolution, cause the science of evolution & social evolution or whatever you call it aren't the same. Tbh it kinda feels like you're doing what the Nazis were infamous for doing - using propaganda.

 

[Armoured]

Lastly, eugenics doesn't work. Many of the traits we most desire our species to have are too complex to reliably use selective breeding to improve, such as intelligence.

Well, that's arguable. We can certainly say that Eugenics as practiced by previous regimes didn't work particularly well, but that's not because of a flaw in the fundamental idea.

Personally, I agree with the claim that one of Hitler/The Nazis greatest crimes was making Eugenics a "forbidden" science. My honours thesis was on dysgenics. I remain a Positive Eugenics proponent to this day (i.e. Positive Eugenics is encouraging favourable traits, Negative Eugenics is discouraging unfavourable ones, and cannot, IMHO, be ethically supported in any way. Just FYI)

 

[Armoured]

I do not have an agenda. This is a science forum so we need to stay within that parameter in talking about this subject. I know quite a few people that were a part of the holocaust so it is a very real subject for me. As I said my dad was stationed in Germany right after the war and he was one of the first to see the concentration camps there as the world began to find out about what was going on there in Germany.

When we study evolutionary theory or if we study the final solution, we have evidence we have to examine and to form an opinion about. The point is the final solution in Germany was the solution they came up with given what they had to work with at the time. Evolutionary theory is a theory that we have developed given what we have to work with. They are both conclusions that people come to given what we have to work with.

Don't make the mistake of thinking a scientific theory is immoral or moral based on it's application.

Consider: If I murder someone by throwing him off a roof and letting him fall to his death, that is immoral. That doesn't make the Theory of Gravity immoral, or by extension, any less true.

 

[Loudmouth]

We are told that two thirds of the "Jews" were killed in Europe as a part of the Nazi's final solution. Hitler in his book Mein Kampf writes: "Nature selects the best from an abundance of single elements and stamps them as fit to live and carry on the conservation of the species." Both Christians and Evolutionist tries to separate themselves from Hitler.

Nowhere in the theory of evolution does it say that you should kill the less fit.

The Germ Theory of Disease says that B. anthracis causes the disease called Anthrax. Does this mean that we should infect people with B. anthracis?

 

[joshua 1 9]

Nowhere in the theory of evolution does it say that you should kill the less fit.

The point was that Hitler mentions natural selection in his book Mein Kampf: "Nature selects the best from an abundance of single elements and stamps them as fit to live and carry on the conservation of the species."

The subtitle of The Origin of Species was "The Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life". This sounds like racism to me. Do you want to address this issue or are you going to side step it again?

In The Descent of Man, did Darwin claimed that certain races, such as blacks and Aborigines, were inferior and that in due course, they would be eliminated and disappear in the struggle for survival?

Did Darwin say this?:
“At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races."

 

[joshua 1 9]

Well, that's arguable. We can certainly say that Eugenics as practiced by previous regimes didn't work particularly well, but that's not because of a flaw in the fundamental idea.

Personally, I agree with the claim that one of Hitler/The Nazis greatest crimes was making Eugenics a "forbidden" science. My honours thesis was on dysgenics. I remain a Positive Eugenics proponent to this day (i.e. Positive Eugenics is encouraging favourable traits, Negative Eugenics is discouraging unfavourable ones, and cannot, IMHO, be ethically supported in any way. Just FYI)

This is a very real consideration for science today. It is common practice to test for Downs Syndrome and to abort the fetus if there is any chance of this syndrome.

 

[Loudmouth]

The point was that Hitler mentions natural selection in his book Mein Kampf: "Nature selects the best from an abundance of single elements and stamps them as fit to live and carry on the conservation of the species."

So what? Hitler mentions Jesus as well. In fact, Hitler said he was doing the Lord's work by exterminating the Jews.

The subtitle of The Origin of Species was "The Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life". This sounds like racism to me.

In Victorian times, races referred to all species and subpopulations within those species.

Do you want to address this issue or are you going to side step it again?

The issue is that what Hitler did has nothing to do with evolution. I am not the one side stepping it.

Did Darwin say this?:
“At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races."

You will notice that he never said that they should be exterminated. He was simply referring to the trend where developed civlizations conquered or destroyed less developed cultures. You are confusing how things are with how things should be. Science can tell us how things got the way they are. It can't tell us what we should do next. If anything, ethics and morality has always been about changing the way things are.

 

[Loudmouth]

This is a very real consideration for science today. It is common practice to test for Downs Syndrome and to abort the fetus if there is any chance of this syndrome.

Nowhere in the theory of evolution does it say that you should abort fetuses that have Down Syndrome.

 

[Armoured]

This is a very real consideration for science today. It is common practice to test for Downs Syndrome and to abort the fetus if there is any chance of this syndrome.

It is common practice to test for Downs and offer the option of abortion, yes. But not for primarily Eugenic reasons. If it were, however, yes, that would be an example of negative Eugenics.

 

[Armoured]

Nowhere in the theory of evolution does it say that you should abort fetuses that have Down Syndrome.

He's guilt by associationing my eugenics post, not evolutionary theory, per se.

 

[joshua 1 9]

So what? Hitler mentions Jesus as well. In fact, Hitler said he was doing the Lord's work by exterminating the Jews.

So are you saying that Jesus was an evolutionist. He was a follower of Darwin? The Christian church did support Hitler more then they should have. If you read Corrie Tan Boons book you will see that there was a wave of repentance in Germany when it came to light what Hitler was doing.

There is of course an apostate church and a real church. But we are told to let the weeds and the wheat grow together, least you uproot the wheat by pulling the weeds. At the end of this age the angels will bring the wheat in and the weeds will be thrown into the fire and burned. So is that your defense that the Christian church is just as worldly and just as raciest as the evolutionary theory seems to be?

 

[Loudmouth]

So are you saying that Jesus was an evolutionist. He was a follower of Darwin? The Christian church did support Hitler more then they should have. If you read Corrie Tan Boons book you will see that there was a wave of repentance in Germany when it came to light what Hitler was doing.

There is of course an apostate church and a real church. But we are told to let the weeds and the wheat grow together, least you uproot the wheat by pulling the weeds. At the end of this age the angels will bring the wheat in and the weeds will be thrown into the fire and burned. So is that your defense that the Christian church is just as worldly and just as raciest as the evolutionary theory seems to be?

I am still waiting for you to show us where it says that we should kill the less fit within the theory of evolution.