The Feasts of The Lord

Frogster · Oct 18, 2012

cyberlizard said:
the same gospel - yes, the same lifestyle, no.

Steve

how can he live, what he tore down? That's what he corrected peter for, rebuilding the old system.

Gal 2:18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor

Optimax · Oct 18, 2012

What is left to say?

Rom 13:9-10
9 The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet (have an evil desire), and any other commandment, are summed up in the single command, You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself. [Ex 20:13-17; Lev 19:18.]

10 Love does no wrong to one's neighbor [it never hurts anybody]. Therefore love meets all the requirements and is the fulfilling of the Law.
AMP

Rom 14:1-6
14:1 AS FOR the man who is a weak believer, welcome him [into your fellowship], but not to criticize his opinions or pass judgment on his scruples or perplex him with discussions.

2 One [man's faith permits him to] believe he may eat anything, while a weaker one [limits his] eating to vegetables.

3 Let not him who eats look down on or despise him who abstains, and let not him who abstains criticize and pass judgment on him who eats; for God has accepted and welcomed him.

4 Who are you to pass judgment on and censure another's household servant? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he shall stand and be upheld, for the Master (the Lord) is mighty to support him and make him stand.

5 One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike [sacred]. Let everyone be fully convinced (satisfied) in his own mind.

6 He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
AMP

Rom 14:14-18

14 I know and am convinced (persuaded) as one in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is [forbidden as] essentially unclean (defiled and unholy in itself). But [none the less] it is unclean (defiled and unholy) to anyone who thinks it is unclean.

15 But if your brother is being pained or his feelings hurt or if he is being injured by what you eat, [then] you are no longer walking in love. [You have ceased to be living and conducting yourself by the standard of love toward him.] Do not let what you eat hurt or cause the ruin of one for whom Christ died!

16 Do not therefore let what seems good to you be considered an evil thing [by someone else]. [In other words, do not give occasion for others to criticize that which is justifiable for you.]

17[After all] the kingdom of God is not a matter of [getting the] food and drink [one likes], but instead it is righteousness (that state which makes a person acceptable to God) and [heart] peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

18 He who serves Christ in this way is acceptable and pleasing to God and is approved by men.
AMP

cyberlizard · Oct 18, 2012

Frogster said:
how can he live, what he tore down? That's what he corrected peter for, rebuilding the old system.

Gal 2:18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor

and yet shortly before his death he described himself in the present tense as a Pharisee and someone who did not willingly break the commandments.

Steve

cyberlizard · Oct 18, 2012

Frogster said:
how can he live, what he tore down? That's what he corrected peter for, rebuilding the old system.

Gal 2:18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor

What do you believe it was that Paul himself tore down?

Steve

weariedsoul · Oct 18, 2012

Optimax said:
What is left to say?

Rom 13:9-10
9 The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet (have an evil desire), and any other commandment, are summed up in the single command, You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself. [Ex 20:13-17; Lev 19:18.]

10 Love does no wrong to one's neighbor [it never hurts anybody]. Therefore love meets all the requirements and is the fulfilling of the Law.
AMP

Rom 14:1-6
14:1 AS FOR the man who is a weak believer, welcome him [into your fellowship], but not to criticize his opinions or pass judgment on his scruples or perplex him with discussions.

2 One [man's faith permits him to] believe he may eat anything, while a weaker one [limits his] eating to vegetables.

3 Let not him who eats look down on or despise him who abstains, and let not him who abstains criticize and pass judgment on him who eats; for God has accepted and welcomed him.

4 Who are you to pass judgment on and censure another's household servant? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he shall stand and be upheld, for the Master (the Lord) is mighty to support him and make him stand.

5 One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike [sacred]. Let everyone be fully convinced (satisfied) in his own mind.

6 He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
AMP

Rom 14:14-18

14 I know and am convinced (persuaded) as one in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is [forbidden as] essentially unclean (defiled and unholy in itself). But [none the less] it is unclean (defiled and unholy) to anyone who thinks it is unclean.

15 But if your brother is being pained or his feelings hurt or if he is being injured by what you eat, [then] you are no longer walking in love. [You have ceased to be living and conducting yourself by the standard of love toward him.] Do not let what you eat hurt or cause the ruin of one for whom Christ died!

16 Do not therefore let what seems good to you be considered an evil thing [by someone else]. [In other words, do not give occasion for others to criticize that which is justifiable for you.]

17[After all] the kingdom of God is not a matter of [getting the] food and drink [one likes], but instead it is righteousness (that state which makes a person acceptable to God) and [heart] peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

18 He who serves Christ in this way is acceptable and pleasing to God and is approved by men.
AMP

I agree with this post.

Frogster · Oct 18, 2012

cyberlizard said:
and yet shortly before his death he described himself in the present tense as a Pharisee and someone who did not willingly break the commandments.

Steve

As far as a pharisee in Acts 23, he was just showing that he was of that same belief system, the resurrection, as he emphasized that to Agrippa in 26, and he also said that was the real reason he was on trial, the resurrection he preached knowing they just used the temple event to get him, besides, he could not undo his education either. He stressed the law and the prophets, the OT about the resurrection, it's all in Acts.

Philippians was written late too, and you don't need me to remind you about chapter 3, and all those flesh credentials he counted as poop do you?

Frogster · Oct 18, 2012

cyberlizard said:
What do you believe it was that Paul himself tore down?

Steve

the system, read it in the NEB.

Gal 2:18 No, if I start building up again a system which I have pulled down, then it is that I show myself up as a transgressor of the law.

he was talking about the system.

19 For through the law I died to law to live for God.

cyberlizard · Oct 18, 2012

i do not like paraphrases - the word system simply is not in there.

So what did Paul himself tear down?

Steve

Frogster · Oct 18, 2012

cyberlizard said:
i do not like paraphrases - the word system simply is not in there.

So what did Paul himself tear down?

Steve

that bible is used by alot of commentators, FF Bruce etc, besides, he obviously was talking about the judaism peter built up, certainly you must know it was part of his correction to peter dont you?

died to law, the next verse, the narrative bears it out.

ok, please keep asking questions, it's just like old times with you.

here, i will even put in in the NLT.

18 Rather, I am a sinner if I rebuild the old system of law I already tore down.

Frogster · Oct 18, 2012

amplified.

18 For if I [or any others who have taught that the observance of the Law of Moses is not essential to being justified by God should now by word or practice teach or intimate that it is essential to] build up again what I tore down, I prove myself a transgressor.

70 ad confimed it all anyway, torn down.

cyberlizard · Oct 18, 2012

so you have paul teaching explicitly against the teaching of his Master who said not a jot or tittle of the law would pass away until heaven and earth does likewise?

I really do think people misunderstand Paul and that Paul appears according to what many teach that he is true founder of Christianity, not Jesus.

Steve

ByronArn · Oct 18, 2012

cyberlizard said:
so you have paul teaching explicitly against the teaching of his Master who said not a jot or tittle of the law would pass away until heaven and earth does likewise?

I really do think people misunderstand Paul and that Paul appears according to what many teach that he is true founder of Christianity, not Jesus.

Steve

Mathew 5:17-19 is often misinterpreted by Messianics and other Sabbath-keeping Christians. I am going to post the passage below in bold. Underlined emphasis will be mine, as well as red italics commentary.

(17)"Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. [The Law and the Prophets was a first century Jewish idiom for the entire canon of the Hebrew Bible. Jesus isn't saying anything about the validity of the Law in our life, but of the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures (the Old Testament)] I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. ([18])For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. [This is a double condition. It means, until one or the other comes to pass. IOW, "Not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the Law untile either: 1) Heaven and Earth pass away, or b)all things are accomplished." Guess what? All things were accomplished when Christ uttered on the cross, "It is finished!"] (19)Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, [Which commandments? Those that folllow this excerpt up to the end of the Sermon on the mount. Its not talking about the mitzvot of Torah, or else we'd still be obligated to do the sacrifices at the temple, because these were an integral part of Torah. As James said, you can't keep only pieces of the Law and still claim to be Torah-observant.] and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; [But they are still in the Kingdom of Heaven.] but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven [Again, these commandments refer to the Commandments of the Sermon on the Mount, not the commandments of Torah]. (World English Bible)

Hope this helps in understanding, and contributes to this discussion!

cyberlizard · Oct 18, 2012

which is even worse as Paul appears to teach according to some that it is okay to break the commandments, which are holy, righteous and good. Some on here would have us believe that in all practicality the commandments are unholy, wrong and ungodly and to keep them is an affront to the saving grace of Jesus.

Steve

Frogster · Oct 18, 2012

cyberlizard said:
so you have paul teaching explicitly against the teaching of his Master who said not a jot or tittle of the law would pass away until heaven and earth does likewise?

I really do think people misunderstand Paul and that Paul appears according to what many teach that he is true founder of Christianity, not Jesus.

Steve

how much jot and tittle of the torah passed away when the temple went down? Jesus knew that was coming.

besides, he also said in Matt 5 untill fulfillment.

read luke, so you can keep a proper perspective of what was fulfilled.

Luke 24:44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Frogster · Oct 18, 2012

cyberlizard said:
which is even worse as Paul appears to teach according to some that it is okay to break the commandments, which are holy, righteous and good. Some on here would have us believe that in all practicality the commandments are unholy, wrong and ungodly and to keep them is an affront to the saving grace of Jesus.

Steve

naaa..paul fought off the sinful nature by the cross, he often warned about being in the sinful nature.

he preached the cross, that was the answer, read rom 6:6.

weariedsoul · Oct 18, 2012

cyberlizard said:
so you have paul teaching explicitly against the teaching of his Master who said not a jot or tittle of the law would pass away until heaven and earth does likewise?

I really do think people misunderstand Paul and that Paul appears according to what many teach that he is true founder of Christianity, not Jesus.

not a jot or tittle of the law would pass away until heaven and earth does likewise?

Click to expand...

Steve

Ok, i have heard that one many times, and i used it myself in the past too.

But i have learned since then to compare doctrine with doctrine, to have an open mind and pray for truth in thanksgiving. Paul said that the things he teaches are directions from the master. I see Paul teaching just that. Paul teaches us to obey, but he teaches us why we obey, he teaches about love and Grace from revelation from the Lord, He teaches us to do good, love others, not judge or condemn, to live holy, and all that Christ wanted us gentiles to know.

Remember that although the words of Christ are for all men that he came to Israel first, they rejected Him, and at the end of the Gospel Jesus told his disciples to go and teach all nations to observe what he commanded them, so we need go no further than the their teaching. We read the Lords words and obey, we also learn from apostles because Jesus taught directly to the Jews sometimes and although gentiles can learn from that its not necessarily for them. Paul makes it appear that Sabbath isn't for Gentiles, although they can observe it under grace and in faith, but Jesus taught about the sabbath and we can learn from that but we don't necessarily need to observe a sabbath day, unless i misunderstand paul which is possible, i'm just a man not a prophet and teacher of all mysteries

tzadik · Oct 18, 2012

It's this simple.

Whose Appointed times (Feasts) are they?
Leviticus 23 makes it crystal clear that they are God's Appointed Times (Feasts).

Now that we know this, the question then is...
Are we as God's children, as God's Household supposed to throw away His Appointed Times (Feasts) ?

or are we as God's children, as God's Household supposed to first understand, obey and follow His Appointed Times (Feasts)?

It's quite easy to "belittle" Feast days when they are "men's feasts" or even "jewish feasts". But we must remember that they are God's Holy Days.

That simple fact changes things.

weariedsoul · Oct 18, 2012

Romans 14:5 seems relevant to this discussion but not to the OP, the OP is not pushing the observance of days, shes just sharing something her church does, and it doesn't seem to contradict NT doctrine if its done in a NC way, so i see nothing with it.

Having said that, we as gentiles are not taught to observe any holy day for the purpose of obtaining or practicing holiness. Not that i see anyway.

ByronArn · Oct 18, 2012

weariedsoul said:
Romans 14:5 seems relevant to this discussion but not to the OP, the OP is not pushing the observance of days, shes just sharing something her church does, and it doesn't seem to contradict NT doctrine if its done in a NC way, so i see nothing with it.

Having said that, we as gentiles are not taught to observe any holy day for the purpose of obtaining or practicing holiness. Not that i see anyway.

I agree 100% with this. I have no problems with people observing Old Covenant Holy Days and re-interpreting them in the light of the New Covenant. Sounds great. However, when people start saying its a matter of obedience to God, or important to sanctification, or even to salvation, then I feel I must engage the false doctrine. A couple who have posted here seem to be implying that observing the Holy Days is a matter of obedience to God. Such as this quote:

tzadik said:
It's this simple.

Whose Appointed times (Feasts) are they?
Leviticus 23 makes it crystal clear that they are God's Appointed Times (Feasts).

Now that we know this, the question then is...
Are we as God's children, as God's Household supposed to throw away His Appointed Times (Feasts) ?

or are we as God's children, as God's Household supposed to first understand, obey and follow His Appointed Times (Feasts)?

It's quite easy to "belittle" Feast days when they are "men's feasts" or even "jewish feasts". But we must remember that they are God's Holy Days.

That simple fact changes things.

What he fails to realize is that these apointments were made between God and the children of Israel, under the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant, Romans 14:5 seems to rule according to observances of holy days:

Romans 14:5-6 5 One man esteems one day as more important. Another esteems every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks. He who doesnt eat, to the Lord he doesnt eat, and gives God thanks. (World English Bible)

TasManOfGod · Oct 18, 2012

The fullness of God's feasts is yet to be fulfilled at the end of the ages. I think I have the theology right on this but I am waiting confirmation

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