• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The fatal flaw of Universalism

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
83
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟573,542.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Dear Euq: How can anybody actually stoop so low as to believe Abba our dearest Daddy could actually accomplish what He set out to do? The curse must remain on all creation forever & forever & forever in complete nauseum.

“Punish a man for his sins, that is just: punish him for ages…that may be just: but make no end of punishing him for that sin, reduce him from a man to a devil, let him become for ever vile, that is not just. The only justice to a sinner in a case like our human one is mercy, is to make his punishment finite according to his works…and of such a nature as not simply to torment the man, but to drive him back to the way of God.” -T. P. Forsyth M.A.

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,393
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,356.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Most find their way to destruction not to eternal life.
That seems so wasteful. Shouldn't they at least be recycled? More Eco-friendly.

Go green with Restorationism.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,393
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,356.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Scripture is not silly. It's important and correct and proves the doctrine of Universalism (rightly banned from most of the forum) to be a false doctrine.
Right. Because it's not TRUE Christianity without a forever burning hell.
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
83
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟573,542.00
Faith
Non-Denom
That seems so wasteful. Shouldn't they at least be recycled? More Eco-friendly.

Go green with Restorationism.

Dear Saint: Our Master refuses to produce miracle fish and bread to feed the many thousands who have gathered to hear His words of life and leave it there.

This Man from the Glory says, "gather up the fragments that remain that NOTHING be lost."

Another fatal flaw?

 
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,393
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,356.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This Man from the Glory says, "gather up the fragments that remain that NOTHING be lost."
Yes. Twelve baskets full.
Such a visual. The twelve return to Christ with the overflow; each with a basket full in their hands. And all this from a boy's lunch. Imagine what this did in the life of that boy. I wonder if Jesus sent the overflow home with the boy as a witness to his mother. - lol

"How was your day, son? Err... What's this? !!!"
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,393
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,356.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Good morning @Charlie24

May you see the world today as full of people who will one day be redeemed into God's whole family. Each one as they joyfully acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord.

Life is so much better when we look on humanity as our own family, rather than as the damned. Love finds a way. - AMEN
 
Upvote 0

Charlie24

Newbie
Oct 17, 2014
2,306
963
✟111,231.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single

Good morning Steven!

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Our Lord is a merciful and loving God!
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Right. Because it's not TRUE Christianity without a forever burning hell.
It's not true Christianity if it does not agree with the Bible.

In this case, the testimony of Scripture is overwhelmingly in the direction of an eternal loss on the part of the unredeemed, no matter how we "slice" that concept.

Maybe it will not be pitchforks and literal fire; maybe those who refused Christ until the end of their Earthly lives will take themselves to some kind of hell in preference to the place of the redeemed. In any case, it is undeniable that an eternal loss, an estrangement from God, is Scriptural.
 
Reactions: ewq1938
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
83
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟573,542.00
Faith
Non-Denom

Dear Albion: There is most certainly "loss" in Canon. It is when you endeavor to place aidios/ eternal before it that you face what is NOT in Scripture. In the case of the individual turned over to Satan for destruction of the flesh, the final effect is salvation, loss but salvation.

That his spirit shall be saved.

1 Corinthians 5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord.
 
Last edited:
Reactions: Lazarus Short
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
83
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟573,542.00
Faith
Non-Denom

Dear Saint: The Master of the Glory does all things well. He clears the air of the human condition, the disordered mess of struggling humanity to set is right once & for all.

The band-aid of the Law has been swallowed by the Spirit of the living & breathing God.

Our Father Abba = magnificent overflow.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married

I follow what you are saying, but if we rely upon Scripture, it's not supported there.

The above, for example, does not refer to the next life but to this one. Gill's exposition (per Bible Hub) explains as follows:

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
83
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟573,542.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I follow what you are saying, but if we rely upon Scripture, it's not there.

The following, for example, does not refer to the next life but to this one.

Dear Albion: The Scripture speaks of the total triumph of the Lord of Glory over the all. Not some, not a great deal, the ta pante!

If you will take a few moments and read the translations of this declaration you will find the operation is not restricted to this life.

"You must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved on the day the Lord returns."

Never limit the Unlimited One, EVER!
 
Last edited:
Reactions: Lazarus Short
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Dear Albion: The Scripture speaks of total triumph of the Lord of Glory over the all.
Well, certainly. We have to admit that God will triumph in the end. What constitutes that "triumph" is not necessarily what you want us to conclude, however.

To have justice done everywhere, for instance, would represent God's triumph. Or saving some of us purely on the basis of God's graciousness while others are not saved from themselves can be evidence of God's triumph.
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
83
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟573,542.00
Faith
Non-Denom

Dear Albion: If Abba loses the vast, vast majority for whom the Beloved appears as the at-one-ment, the Author is not the Finisher.

No more let sin & sorrow grow, nor thorns infest the ground. He comes to make His blessings flow far as the curse is found.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Dear Albion: If Abba loses the vast, vast majority for whom the Beloved appears as the at-one-ment, the Author is not the Finisher.
I don't think that conclusion is acceptable. It may look that way to us mortals who gauge winning and losing in a certain way, and Universalists often make the argument you are referring to. Remember, though, that God is almighty and can save whomever he wants. He COULD save everyone if he were to choose that.

It is not as though he is in a battle with an adversary, Satan, who is his equal. Because Satan is not the equal of God, the "struggle" for men's souls that is so often talked about by people is not actually a fair fight. God is ALLOWING Satan to remain in the field.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,397
83
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟573,542.00
Faith
Non-Denom

Dear Albion: The Magnificent One accomplishes every last segment of His mighty purpose in the Lord Jesus Christ. Adam1 sins, the Last Adam meets that fall by degrees of "how much more." He wills (thelo) that all mankind be saved, His mighty will prevails, always.

Many made sinners = many made righteous.
 
Reactions: Lazarus Short
Upvote 0

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
75
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟301,642.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

Albion, this ex-atheist/now-Christian had heard the assertions for damnation, annihilation and reconciliation. I had questions needing answers. I found myself a very ordinary KJV and dove in for two years. I saw bias, bad translation and context trickery. By the time I reached the end of it, I was a confirmed Universalist.

You use the term "the Bible" without specifying. You say it as if there is one and only one, as if Bibles which do not mention Hell do not exist. They do. How can you be unaware of that? The way I "slice" it, the only loss will be the loss of rewards for those who must go through the fire, as we see in First Corinthians 3:15. Yet, they will be saved.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married

According to the Bible, he saves all who have Faith in Christ as their Lord and Savior. It's pretty clear that not everyone is in that group.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
There is one Bible, but there are different translations. So okay, tell us what you are referring to as concerns Bible versions that do not make any reference to hell or, more importantly, to an eternity of estrangement awaiting some of us. That is the issue, not hell per se.
 
Upvote 0

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
75
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟301,642.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

Do not confuse the end of the book with the end of the story. See First Corinthians 23-28.

John did not get it wrong, he was not shown everything, just wrote what he was allowed to write.
 
Upvote 0