The fatal flaw of Universalism

Charlie24 · Feb 3, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
That's true Charlie, and the death of our Lord was NOT in vain. So what needs to happen? Restoration to life, in Christ, Charlie!

Not going to happen SM. Hell is full of people who wish so.

In fact, I think some are there right now that believed they could die in their sins and yet be accepted after a period of correction.

That's why I am opposed to UR, it's a terrible heresy.

Lazarus Short · Feb 3, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Not going to happen SM. Hell is full of people who wish so.

In fact, I think some are there right now that believed they could die in their sins and yet be accepted after a period of correction.

That's why I am opposed to UR, it's a terrible heresy.

UR is a terrible heresy? Most of humanity locked up in Hell forever is just terrible. Why do you want Hell to be true? You should be glad at the mere possibility that God intends to save all.

Charlie24 · Feb 3, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
UR is a terrible heresy? Most of humanity locked up in Hell forever is just terrible. Why do you want Hell to be true? You should be glad at the mere possibility that God intends to save all.

I wish it were that way Laz, I really do.

But that is not the judgement of God, and we can't change that.

If one truly comes to the knowledge of how awful sin really is, and what it cost God to deliver us from that sin, we can understand that God is dead serious about our sin.

If we don't heed to the warnings, there will be no mercy. It's just that serious.

Lazarus Short · Feb 3, 2020

Charlie24 said:
I wish it were that way Laz, I really do.

But that is not the judgement of God, and we can't change that.

If one truly comes to the knowledge of how awful sin really is, and what it cost God to deliver us from that sin, we can understand that God is dead serious about our sin.

If we don't heed to the warnings, there will be no mercy. It's just that serious.

Charlie, your mention of mercy reminds me of what I wrote about Psalm 136:

Psalm 136

Here I read (26 times!) this: “…his mercy endureth for ever.” Compare this God of mercy to the Hell theory god, who grants us our precious Free Will, and then when we exercise it badly, even in ignorance, He relegates us to Hell with no chance of reprieve. Compare the real Jesus, Who prayed to His Father for the sinners who were killing Him, to the Jesus of Mary K. Baxter who tells the damned in so many words, “Too bad, you screwed up, and here you are.” (Yes, I did read her book, but am not sorry for the paraphrase.) For that matter, take a look at the behavior of Jesus’ early followers, in the days when universal reconciliation (or whatever term they used at the time) was orthodoxy, versus the violence, torture, and bloodshed which later set in after the Hell theory became dominant. I know that during this period, entire nations disappeared from history, and others nearly did, for what the Church considered heresy. You see, gentle reader, either the Hell theory is correct, or God’s mercy endures forever – both cannot be true at the same time. If God’s mercy does endure forever, and I believe it does, then people cannot be sent to eternal torture, whatever excuses some may make for it – burning the wicked to ashes is more merciful, but as we shall see, God has more mercy in store for us than that. Let me say it again, for it bears repeating: universal reconciliation is mercy, annihilation is mercy (sort of), but eternal torture cannot be mercy. Psalm 136 and the Hell theory cannot both be true, and Psalm 136 is true.

Charlie24 · Feb 3, 2020

James 2:13
"For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment."

Who is this that has no mercy on others? It is the unrighteous!

God will have no mercy when He has pleaded out His heart in His Word.

Lazarus Short · Feb 3, 2020

Charlie24 said:
James 2:13
"For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment."

Who is this that has no mercy on others? It is the unrighteous!

God will have no mercy when He has pleaded out His heart in His Word.

Yet, "I wish it were that way Laz, I really do." We can play proof-text ping pong all day, but it is in the entirety of Scripture that a final answer will be found. I had to DIG to find answers to questions I had, such as where God stated that He was divorcing unfaithful Israel, and later, Judah. I had to dig to find where God stated that He was/is willing to save all. But...is He able? I dug and dug, and then realized that of course He is able! He is God - He can do anything! Then, everything fit together.

Charlie24 · Feb 3, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
Yet, "I wish it were that way Laz, I really do." We can play proof-text ping pong all day, but it is in the entirety of Scripture that a final answer will be found. I had to DIG to find answers to questions I had, such as where God stated that He was divorcing unfaithful Israel, and later, Judah. I had to dig to find where God stated that He was/is willing to save all. But...is He able? I dug and dug, and then realized that of course He is able! He is God - He can do anything! Then, everything fit together.

But He does according to His set of rules, not ours.

One day we will perfectly understand why God has done what He has done.

Lazarus Short · Feb 3, 2020

Charlie24 said:
But He does according to His set of rules, not ours.

One day we will perfectly understand why God has done what He has done.

Does God follow the Law He gave to Moses?

Charlie24 · Feb 3, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
Does God follow the Law He gave to Moses?

Paul said that he would have not known what sin was except for the Law.

Since the purpose of the Law was to identify sin, I don't think it would apply to God.

Der Alte · Feb 3, 2020

Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.
What does that mean? Does it mean that some day by and by God will have mercy, pity and will spare?

Lazarus Short · Feb 3, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Paul said that he would have not known what sin was except for the Law.

Since the purpose of the Law was to identify sin, I don't think it would apply to God.

That might imply that you don't think God knows what sin is. But I'll take another tack - in the creation accounts of Genesis and John, chapter 1, we see God creating the Cosmos as a hierarchy, without Hell. Yes, the place is not mentioned. With that in mind, I see God and His creation as a hierarchy, not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell setup with the souls of men being a contested prize between the two.

Now logically, there are four ways to view how God metes out salvation:

1. God is neither able nor willing to save all. A Deist might like that, but most Christians won't.

2. God is able, but not willing to save all. In short, Calvinism.

3. God is wiling, but not able to save all. We call it Arminianism.

4. God is willing, and able, to save all. My position, and why not? As God asked Job, is anything too difficult for Him? Save everyone? Sure, takes some time, but He's up to it.

So tell me why 2. & 3. are the only options with any general respectability? Is it not because they both allow for Hell? Looks like it from here.

Tell me why you cling so tightly to the Hell theory, when:

The creation accounts do not mention Hell as being created.

God's Law, as given to Moses, does not mention or threaten Hell.

All deaths in the Bible are simple deaths, with no one relegated to Hell - outside of fairly obvious mis-translations.

The very word "hell" does not come from Latin, Greek or Hebrew, but from the languages of then-pagan northern Europe. The four words it is mis-translated from mean no such place. We are left with the Norse goddess "Hel" being pagan, but "Hell" being Christian. But wait..."hel" appears twice in the 1611 KJV. It's confusing until you leave the whole mess behind.

I have yet more reasons to disbelieve in Hell, but that will do for now.

The place that looks most like Hell - the Lake of Fire - is not identified as such even in the KJV.

Charlie24 · Feb 3, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
That might imply that you don't think God knows what sin is. But I'll take another tack - in the creation accounts of Genesis and John, chapter 1, we see God creating the Cosmos as a hierarchy, without Hell. Yes, the place is not mentioned. With that in mind, I see God and His creation as a hierarchy, not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell setup with the souls of men being a contested prize between the two.

Now logically, there are four ways to view how God metes out salvation:

1. God is neither able nor willing to save all. A Deist might like that, but most Christians won't.

2. God is able, but not willing to save all. In short, Calvinism.

3. God is wiling, but not able to save all. We call it Arminianism.

4. God is willing, and able, to save all. My position, and why not? As God asked Job, is anything too difficult for Him? Save everyone? Sure, takes some time, but He's up to it.

So tell me why 2. & 3. are the only options with any general respectability? Is it not because they both allow for Hell? Looks like it from here.

Tell me why you cling so tightly to the Hell theory, when:

The creation accounts do not mention Hell as being created.

God's Law, as given to Moses, does not mention or threaten Hell.

All deaths in the Bible are simple deaths, with no one relegated to Hell - outside of fairly obvious mis-translations.

The very word "hell" does not come from Latin, Greek or Hebrew, but from the languages of then-pagan northern Europe. The four words it is mis-translated from mean no such place. We are left with the Norse goddess "Hel" being pagan, but "Hell" being Christian. But wait..."hel" appears twice in the 1611 KJV. It's confusing until you leave the whole mess behind.

I have yet more reasons to disbelieve in Hell, but that will do for now.

The place that looks most like Hell - the Lake of Fire - is not identified as such even in the KJV.

Let's just assume you are right about UR.

That would mean sin has no lasting accountability and is no big deal.

Jesus being slapped around and beaten almost to death and then hung on a tree to die is ok with God because we all will be forgiven in the end.

Now you can spin your logic all you like Laz., but that's what it boils down to.

Der Alte · Feb 3, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
That might imply that you don't think God knows what sin is. But I'll take another tack - in the creation accounts of Genesis and John, chapter 1, we see God creating the Cosmos as a hierarchy, without Hell. Yes, the place is not mentioned. With that in mind, I see God and His creation as a hierarchy, not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell setup with the souls of men being a contested prize between the two.

Rubbish. Logical fallacy. The absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence.

Now logically, there are four ways to view how God metes out salvation:
1. God is neither able nor willing to save all. A Deist might like that, but most Christians won't.
2. God is able, but not willing to save all. In short, Calvinism.
3. God is wiling, but not able to save all. We call it Arminianism.

Rubbish.

4. God is willing, and able, to save all. My position, and why not? As God asked Job, is anything too difficult for Him? Save everyone? Sure, takes some time, but He's up to it.

Humanistic rationalization.

So tell me why 2. & 3. are the only options with any general respectability? Is it not because they both allow for Hell? Looks like it from here.
Tell me why you cling so tightly to the Hell theory, when:
The creation accounts do not mention Hell as being created.
God's Law, as given to Moses, does not mention or threaten Hell.
All deaths in the Bible are simple deaths, with no one relegated to Hell - outside of fairly obvious mis-translations.

More logical fallacies. Arguments from silence.

The very word "hell" does not come from Latin, Greek or Hebrew, but from the languages of then-pagan northern Europe. The four words it is mis-translated from mean no such place. We are left with the Norse goddess "Hel" being pagan, but "Hell" being Christian. But wait..."hel" appears twice in the 1611 KJV. It's confusing until you leave the whole mess behind.
I have yet more reasons to disbelieve in Hell, but that will do for now.
The place that looks most like Hell - the Lake of Fire - is not identified as such even in the KJV.

The lake of fire is irrelevant. The assumed etymology of the word "hell" is irrelevant. That some other nation, a few hundred years ago, had a word that sounded something like "hell" has absolutely nothing to do with the existence of hell.
Example. When we say the word truck, we think of a large boxy vehicle for transporting large, heavy loads. The word "truck" originally meant vegetables.
…..Where did the concept of a fiery hell originate? Long before Dante, according to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, hades and gehenna in the NT.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

Saint Steven · Feb 3, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Individual accountability!

For every person that dies in their sins, the terrible death of our Lord on the cross was in vain.

I do actually believe in individual accountability. But not for salvation.
I don't believe that God grades on a curve. As if your good deeds need to outweigh your bad deeds, then you're in.

And Christ's death did EVERTHING it was supposed to do. No wasted effort there. He atoned for the whole world. Done deal.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Der Alte · Feb 3, 2020

Follow on to previous post.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1

/…..Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in
The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism

Charlie24 · Feb 3, 2020

Saint Steven said:
I do actually believe in individual accountability. But not for salvation.
I don't believe that God grades on a curve. As if your good deeds need to outweigh your bad deeds, then you're in.

And Christ's death did EVERTHING it was supposed to do. No wasted effort there. He atoned for the whole world. Done deal.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Don't forget the "whosover will's" found throughout the scripture.

There is a condition to the atoning sacrifice, whosoever will.

Whosoever don't cannot benefit.

Saint Steven · Feb 3, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Don't forget the "whosover will's" found throughout the scripture.

There is a condition to the atoning sacrifice, whosoever will.

Whosoever don't cannot benefit.

That would be good if you could present that. It would be worth taking a look at.

I say the "whosoever will's" have no effect on the atonement itself. Please prove me wrong. Thanks.

Saint Steven · Feb 3, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Let's just assume you are right about UR.

That would mean sin has no lasting accountability and is no big deal.

Jesus being slapped around and beaten almost to death and then hung on a tree to die is ok with God because we all will be forgiven in the end.

Why does sin have to have "lasting accountability"?
You believe you have been forgiven your sins, but you think the others should pay for all eternity? Because you think sin should have "lasting accountability"?

Maybe you got off too easy. What if your sins had lasting accountability? Shouldn't you have to pay more than you have? What would be appropriate? Ten minutes in hell? Or maybe ten years? What would be fair in the light of lasting accountability? Pick your sentence.

2 Corinthians 5:18-20
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

ewq1938 · Feb 3, 2020

Mat_12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

So much for Universalism.

FineLinen · Feb 4, 2020

ewq1938 said:
Mat_12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

So much for Universalism.

Mystery= musterion =

Not the mysterious, but that which is outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension.

Can be made known ONLY by Divine revelation & at a time appointed by God.

“Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise of the glory of His grace , wherein He has made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace ; Wherein He has abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will .”

The fatal flaw of Universalism

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Well-Known Member

Newbie

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

Newbie

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

You can call me Steve

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Newbie

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

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