The fatal flaw of Universalism

[Charlie24]

Have you seen the long list of translators through the centuries who have translated the Hebrew and Greek scriptures into English. It's quite a list.

Did you know they are all wrong in leading us to believe there is a permanent hell for those who reject Christ, according to the Universalists.

A merciful and loving God cannot be just to send part of His creation to a place such as this while some others enjoy the presence of God forever.

Scripture such as these have been mistranslated by all these translators.

Matt. 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2Thes. 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Jude 7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The Universalists have said they plan to translate their own Bible and make these corrections.

When they do they have sealed their fate. I would like to draw your attention to a very important verse of scripture.

Rev. 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

What have the Universalists taken away from the words of the book of this prophecy, or from the entire Bible? They have taken away from any words such as eternal, everlasting, anything that presents a permanent place of punishment for those who have rejected Christ.

What did God say in Rev. 22:19 the punishment for such a thing will be?

Folks, this is as serious as false doctrine can get!

 

[Albion]

A merciful and loving God cannot be just to send part of His creation to a place such as this while some others enjoy the presence of God forever.

Establishing that would take some serious explaining. We cannot simply conclude that God is obliged to do what we think any god ought to do.

 

[FineLinen]

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[Jord Simcha]

I don't believe Universalists are trying to come up with a new translation; rather they turn to the original language for better understanding. My Greek is definitely not good enough to interpret the New Testament in the original language myself, however, my English and Dutch are good enough to see all the plain to read verses that indicate universal reconciliation is the end (goal, purpose) of Jesus Christ, and plainly prophecied.

This link has a great summary of all the verses I mean:
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Establishing that would take some serious explaining. We cannot simply conclude that God is obliged to do what we think any god ought to do.

God hates an unequal measure. There's your explanation. Finite crimes cannot merit infinite punishment on any scale, as it would be infinitely unjust.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Have you seen the long list of translators through the centuries who have translated the Hebrew and Greek scriptures into English. It's quite a list.

Did you know they are all wrong in leading us to believe there is a permanent hell for those who reject Christ, according to the Universalists.

A merciful and loving God cannot be just to send part of His creation to a place such as this while some others enjoy the presence of God forever.

Scripture such as these have been mistranslated by all these translators.

Matt. 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2Thes. 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Jude 7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The Universalists have said they plan to translate their own Bible and make these corrections.

When they do they have sealed their fate. I would like to draw your attention to a very important verse of scripture.

Rev. 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

What have the Universalists taken away from the words of the book of this prophecy, or from the entire Bible? They have taken away from any words such as eternal, everlasting, anything that presents a permanent place of punishment for those who have rejected Christ.

What did God say in Rev. 22:19 the punishment for such a thing will be?

Folks, this is as serious as false doctrine can get!

There's a place called hell in the popular imagination, and then there are Bible places called Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and the lake of fire. We know many translations substitute hell for one or more of these. So untangling the mess to find out what purposes these concepts serve takes a little effort. Are you up for 'the Berean hell challenge' Charlie?

 

[Charlie24]

There's a place called hell in the popular imagination, and then there are Bible places called Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and the lake of fire. We know many translations substitute hell for one or more of these. So untangling the mess to find out what purposes these concepts serve takes a little effort. Are you up for 'the Berean hell challenge' Charlie?

Heb. 3:11
So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'"

To understand why they will never enter His rest read Hebrews 3.

 

[FineLinen]

I don't believe Universalists are trying to come up with a new translation; rather they turn to the original language for better understanding. My Greek is definitely not good enough to interpret the New Testament in the original language myself, however, my English and Dutch are good enough to see all the plain to read verses that indicate universal reconciliation is the end (goal, purpose) of Jesus Christ, and plainly prophecied.

This link has a great summary of all the verses I mean:
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Dear Jord: Gary & Michelle were dear friends of ours. Both of them walked in union with the One who accomplishes what He intends. One can be fluent in Dutch, English, German, French or whatever; without an awakening of the Living God all are just squiggles on the page.

 

[Albion]

God hates an unequal measure. There's your explanation. Finite crimes cannot merit infinite punishment on any scale, as it would be infinitely unjust.

...according to our own standards, that is. And that was my point.

We cannot pose a question about what God, being God, must do, if we insist upon framing the question so that the answer must be in step with our own, human, cultural, societal, values.

 

[Der Alte]

God hates an unequal measure. There's your explanation. Finite crimes cannot merit infinite punishment on any scale, as it would be infinitely unjust.

Only by fallible human reasoning. You presume to impose on God what He can and cannot do to suit your assumptions/presuppositions.
In human cultures there are penalties prescribed for various infractions of the applicable laws. For example theft, in the U.S., the penalty for stealing something of little values e.g. $5 is not the same as the penalty for stealing something of high value e.g. $5,000,000. The penalty for assault is not as severe as the penalty for murder.
In the Bible the penalty for adultery, murder and gathering wood on the Sabbath is exactly the same. Death. In human terms that would be unequal measure. For God it is not. We cannot tell God what is or is not unequal measure.

 

[Der Alte]

There's a place called hell in the popular imagination, and then there are Bible places called Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and the lake of fire. We know many translations substitute hell for one or more of these. So untangling the mess to find out what purposes these concepts serve takes a little effort. Are you up for 'the Berean hell challenge' Charlie?

Before and during the time of Jesus, in Israel, there was a belief in a place of unending, fiery torment and the Jews called it both Ge-Hinnom and sheol, Translated Gehenna and hades in the 225 BC Greek translation of the T'nach.
See e.g. GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[FineLinen]

Did you know they are all wrong in leading us to believe there is a permanent hell for those who reject Christ, according to the Universalists.

Folks, this is as serious as false doctrine can get!

Dear Folks: How can any person actually think for a moment that we who have made correct decisions to follow Christ, should actually be with those rascals who have not?

How silly!

Why should the 15K children who die every day under the age of 5 worldwide as unbaptised sinners get a pass because they have not reached the "age of accountability."

Why?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Have you seen the long list of translators through the centuries who have translated the Hebrew and Greek scriptures into English. It's quite a list.

Did you know they are all wrong in leading us to believe there is a permanent hell for those who reject Christ, according to the Universalists.

A merciful and loving God cannot be just to send part of His creation to a place such as this while some others enjoy the presence of God forever.

Scripture such as these have been mistranslated by all these translators.

Matt. 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2Thes. 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Jude 7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The Universalists have said they plan to translate their own Bible and make these corrections.

When they do they have sealed their fate. I would like to draw your attention to a very important verse of scripture.

Rev. 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

What have the Universalists taken away from the words of the book of this prophecy, or from the entire Bible? They have taken away from any words such as eternal, everlasting, anything that presents a permanent place of punishment for those who have rejected Christ.

What did God say in Rev. 22:19 the punishment for such a thing will be?

Folks, this is as serious as false doctrine can get!

Luke 12:10 is quite clear on the subject.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I don't believe Universalists are trying to come up with a new translation; rather they turn to the original language for better understanding. My Greek is definitely not good enough to interpret the New Testament in the original language myself, however, my English and Dutch are good enough to see all the plain to read verses that indicate universal reconciliation is the end (goal, purpose) of Jesus Christ, and plainly prophecied.

This link has a great summary of all the verses I mean:
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

What is your interpretation of Luke 12:10?

 

[Charlie24]

Dear Folks: How can any person actually think for a moment that we who have made correct decisions to follow Christ, should actually be with those rascals who have not?

How silly!

Why should the 15K children who die every day under the age of 5 worldwide as unbaptised sinners get a pass because they have not reached the "age of accountability."

Why?

Those children have not rejected Christ.

We who have heard the gospel in one form or another have made that choice.

We accept Christ at His word or reject Him. Those kids have not understood the gospel and could not make that decision.

I have heard preachers say that all these kids do not get a free pass. God knew what they would have done in respect to Christ, and judged them accordingly.

I don't know about this, there is no scripture that I have seen can prove their claim.

 

[FineLinen]

Luke 12:10 is quite clear on the subject.

BNR: Since it is "quite clear", you should be able to tell us exactly what the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is. Just place it clearly before us at your earliest convenience.

 

[Jord Simcha]

What is your interpretation of Luke 12:10?

My interpretation of it that apparently it is worse to blaspheme the Holy Spirit than Jesus Himself.
I have no idea what God's motive is for it.

I do believe in universal reconciliation (because of the prophecies), so therefore I conclude that nobody will end up committing the unforgiveable, or that it doesn't mean it separates them who do from the love of God forever.

 

[FineLinen]

Those children have not rejected Christ.

We who have heard the gospel in one form or another have made that choice.

We accept Christ at His word or reject Him. Those kids have not understood the gospel and could not make that decision.

I have heard preachers say that all these kids do not get a free pass. God knew what they would have done in respect to Christ, and judged them accordingly.

I don't know about this, there is no scripture that I have seen can prove their claim.

Dear Charles: These "kids" are lost sinners. They have been born in sin without having an opportunity to prove how lost they are. In short, depraved from day 1 (the T of tulip).

There is no free pass

 

[FineLinen]

F.L. has a friend on another Board

"I used to debate these issues in times past, but have given that up for the most part. And have settled for that of "fortune" cookies or a commentary.

I have no intentions of getting up off the bench for every new kid on the block. My only desire is for people to open-up their hearts and minds to the possibility that we have erred in our attempts to understand everything there is, including that of a creator (God) and we have merely made the Spirit of life conform to our particular image.

There are things that go well beyond what we can imagine or perceive. But I do believe that love will never fail, if we put that first and foremost in our lives.

Although, there are many who have expectations that they must receive (a reward), if they are to give of themselves. And those that don't will be eternally damned, which is just asinine. Religion doesn't build unity, it causes separation and division with this "us" and "them" mentality. There is no one less or greater than anyone else. But when you deal with extreme fundamentalists, they believe they are the cats meow, and they will never listen to reason - as they have been indoctrinated to believe they are right and everyone else is wrong."

 

[Charlie24]

Dear Charles: These "kids" are lost sinners. They have been born in sin without having an opportunity to prove how lost they are. In short, depraved from day 1 (the T of tulip).

There is no free pass

When Davids baby died, he said, I will go to him but he will not come back to me.

What do you suppose that means?