THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

FineLinen · May 31, 2020

Dear St. John: Please be advised that you are unaware that chance is involved in Abba's declared purpose (lol).

What a ghastly thought. The vast majority of the broken vessels of sin must remain in that condition of annihilation forever.

No more let sin & sorrow grow & thorns infest the ground, He comes to make His blessings flow.......

Far as the curse is found!

ClementofA · May 31, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Why do you feel upset because I share the scriptures with you dear friend?

Why do you misrepresent things with statements like that?

How would you know what i "feel"? I only know one who is all knowing & it isn't you.

LoveGodsWord said:
@ClementofA well dear friend I had a look at the last few posts of yours and could see it is the same cut and paste to what has already been addressed with no new content that has already been addressed that you simply reposted without addressing my posts to you. If you want to have a discussion let's talk.

It would be helpful in that regard if you answered my post # 1546.

Also the entire post # 1549.

And all of post # 1552. Including my questions for you at the end, such as re Rom.6:23: Do you think "death" there means eternal destruction as in endless annihilation?

All of post # 1553.

Post #1554 as well.

Don't forget post #1555.

And then there's post #1556.

Others, too: #1538, including these (and other) questions you avoided answering:

Post 1513 another misrepresentation?

And you never addressed & refuted my points there.

Post 1517, you never addressed those points properly.

Post 1518 re your misrepresentation of universalism.

Post 1519 re John 3, never answered.

Posts 1481 & 1520, another misrepresentation of universalism.

Post 1483 yet another misrepresentation of universalism.

As you said, "If you want to have a discussion let's talk."

You addressing all of the above would be a start.

ClementofA · May 31, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
I believe the teachings of "UNIVERSALISM" makes a mockery of the cross by trying to teach that the unrepentant wicked recieve eternal life after the second coming without accepting the gift of God's grace through faith which is what the scriptures teach in HEBREWS 10:26-39.

That's the same misrepresentation you were corrected regarding earlier in this thread:

LoveGodsWord said:
Hmm? You do know this is your post right? What misrepresentation of "UNIVERSALISM" are you claiming I have made dear friend? I have made no misrepresentations.

What? No misrepresentations? They started in your first post in this thread, the OP.

It's a misrepresentation of universalism to state, as you do there, that it "does not hold anyone accountable for sin". Wrong, wrong, wrong!

You replied:

LoveGodsWord said:
Says who?

As someone who has read dozens of books by universalist authors, & dozens more by those opposed to universalism, and been active on many forums with other universalists posting, i believe i am in a position to know what they generally think about your misrepresentation at the beginning of post #1 of this thread. OTOH your post provided no evidence to support the misrepresentation.

That was the first of your misrepresentations of universalism in this thread.

Following is another of your misrepresentations of universalism in this thread (and i expect a search of the thread will uncover more):

LoveGodsWord said:
The teachings of Universalism denies God's justice and judgement for sin. This is where it makes a mockery of the cross and counts the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing dispite to the Spirit of grace *HEBREWS 10:26-39 claiming that the wicked get a free pass and can continue in known unrepentant sins for which JESUS died and receive eternal life without accepting God's gift of grace through faith.

That is incorrect & a misrepresentation of universalism. No one gets "eternal life without accepting God's gift of grace through faith". All those in the lake of fire will need to get right with their Maker, Love Omnipotnent, before they are allowed into the New Jerusalem, whose gates are never shut to the lost.

LoveGodsWord said:
Yes you do. You believe that the unrepentant wicked are saved after the second coming do you not?

They are not saved at the second coming. They go to "hell" for a spell to be tormented (compare Lk.16:19-31; Rev.14:11; 20:10) until they pay what they owe (Mt.5:25-26; 18:34-35), namely repentance toward God & man & faith in Christ & His blood shed for all.

LoveGodsWord said:
Or you believe that God tortures them in the lake of fire until they repent and agree to follow him and receive everlasting life right? That is not the loving God I know from the bible.

If you don't think that God torments people, then are we even reading the same bible? For the Scriptures speak of the (1) sufferings God brought on Job (Job 2), (2) on all women in child birth (Genesis), (3) on those in the lake of fire (Rev.14:11; 20:10), on all creation (Rom.8:18-21; Eccl.1:13), on believers (e.g. 2 Cor.12:7-9), on a stubborn "brother" (1 Cor.5:4-5), on those rejecting faith (1 Tim.1:19-20) & many, many more. What is the purpose of all such torments:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them".

Not to fry them with tortures till they are nonexistent forever.

I don't see the justice in an endless punishment for the sins of a relatively momentary lifetime. That makes no sense at all. Not only does your annihilationism (endless oblivion) theory make a mockery of Love Omnipotent's justice, it also turns Love Crucified's Love into a carton of milk that expires in no time at all. You have Him putting the wicked into torments until they cease to exist & never bringing them back. That's sadistic, pointless and to the detriment of God's glory.

None of His blood shed for all is wasted, but is used to save the world. After all, that is what He is, the Saviour of the world, the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29). That He does by His blood & bearing sin, not destroying the sinner out of existence & out of His love, joy & peace forever. No, Love Almighty does not hold neverending grudges, hate and bitterness against His created children. That would be unholy & sinful.

Even in this lifetime people get 2nd chances. Perhaps many more chances than that. Love Omnipotent's love doesn't expire like a carton of milk. He has an infinite number of chances to give. He says to forgive not just 7 times, but 70 X 7. He says love covers a multitude of sins. That's the Creator of the Scriptures & the Father God that i believe in.

I wonder how many chances Saul, who became Paul, had. Jesus said he was kicking against the goads. It sounds like he was resisting the Holy Spirit. Surely, as a serial killer of Christians, he had heard the gospel from those Christians he persecuted. Yet he refused to believe, again and again. It took a personal appearance from Christ Himself to save this man, whom scripture calls "the worst of sinners".

Jesus disciple Thomas is another example of getting at least a second chance. He refused to believe the Lord had risen, even after all that Jesus had taught him & the testimony of other disciples who had seen him. Like many atheists today he said he would refuse to believe until he saw Him & put his hand inside Him.

King David is another example of being given at least a second chance, if not many more. After all the Lord had done for him, including miracles, he committed premeditated adultery and murder.

Earlier you said universalism says people get a second chance. Now you're saying these people are "forced to repent". Which is it, a second "chance" or "forced to repent"?

So you can't see that the God Who saves ALL human beings into His endless love, joy and peace as any better than the God Who sadistically tortures MANY for all eternity? Wow. I'm speechless.

You say the God Who saves ALL human beings into His endless love, joy and peace is "not the God of love". And your Hitler nuking out of existence forever because His love expired like a carton of milk is "the God of love". Unbelievable. Is that actually what SDA's teach in their church meetings & publications, etc?

LoveGodsWord said:
How are the unrepentant wicked saved in your view after the second coming?

Been there, done that. See above.

LoveGodsWord said:
Universalism has no scripture to claim that the unrepentant wicked are saved after the second coming. This teaching is simply unbiblical as demonstrated throughout this thread.

My conscience & Lord Jesus will never allow me to agree with that.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA · May 31, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
According to the scriptures the unrepentant wicked are corrected by being destroyed by the second death in the lake of fire with no more resurrections. *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9; REVEALTION 21:7-8; JOHN 5:28-29. They receive the wages of their sins which is DEATH (second death) because they reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doind dispite to the spirit of God's grace *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-39.

None of those verses support annihilation or oppose Scriptural universalism.

Romans 6:23 does not say the wages of sin is the second death.

Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Everyone has sinned, so every fallen human being receives the wages of sin, which is death. Does that, then, mean by "death" that everyone gets endless annihilation or tortured for eons that never end? Obviously not.

Scripture knows nothing of any endless death, but says that death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15: 28 Now when all things shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Beyond all that, the above translation of Rom.6:23 is misleading. A number of more literal honest versions read otherwise, such as, for example:

Rom_6:23 “For the ration of Sin is death, yet the gracious gift of God is life eonian, in Christ Jesus, our Lord.” (CLV)

Rom 6 23 doesn't address the question of how many human beings will get the gift of "life eonian". OTOH Scripture reveals that everyone will obtain "life" & be "constituted just":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Rom.1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Worthy of death, not endless tortures or endless annihilation.

Rom.8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Rom.11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath imprisoned them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

36 For out of him, and through him, and into him, is all: to whom be glory into the eons. Amen.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

In more literal translations Romans 6:23 is speaking of eonian life (CLV, YLT, Roth, WEY, etc) not eternal life, which Jesus said believers would obtain in the eon (age) to come (Mk.10:30). While Paul & the author of Revelation both speak of more than one eon to come (e.g. Eph.2:7). Thus eonian life can be understood as ending at the end of the next eon, to be followed by at least one more eon or age. BTW, the early church father, Origen, spoke of what is "after eonian life" (eternal life, KJV).

Thus Romans 6:23 harmonizes with passages that speak of the chosen [church] as "firstfruits" of His creatures (James 1), each in His own order/class raised to immortality "in Christ" (1 Cor.15:22), first Christ, then the church & finally the end class [those who die in sin] (1 Cor.15:22-28), God the Saviour of all, but "especially" those who believe now [in this life] (1 Tim.4:10), a ransom for all...to be testified in its own eras (1Tim.2:4-6), preaching the gospel to the dead (1Pet.3:18-20; 4:6), etc.

Believers will have eonian life in the eon to come and be immortal, so they will, as the Scriptures say, always be with Christ. But eonian life is not eternal life.

The English word "eonian" translated from the Greek word "aionion" is often used of finite duration in ancient Koine Greek:

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

ClementofA · May 31, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
New International Version
WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, but WHOEVER REJECTS THE SON WILL NOT SEE LIFE, for God's wrath remains on them.

[snip spam]
.............

What do you think the message is here to the unrepentant wicked who do not believe and follow Gods Word? YEP! The UNREPETANT WICKED SHALL NOT SEE ETERNAL LIFE!

I already addressed that fallacious conclusion in other posts in this thread & the post to which you were replying. You rely on a misleading, deceptive translation of Jn.3:36, such as that you posted above.

LoveGodsWord said:
Did you catch that dear friend? BOOM! The teachings of "UNIVERSALISM" comes tumbling down in the very scriptures you provide. This is kind of the opposite of what your trying to teach is it not?

Just because you say so? No. And none of this so far addresses or refutes anything in my posts on the subject of John 3:36.

LoveGodsWord said:
No one said that an unbeliever cannot become a believer in this life. So your claims here are irrelavant.

You were replying to my comment here in quotes:

"This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life. It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point."

As long as the unbelievers remains stubborn they will not be seeing life, but that doesn't mean they will remain stubborn forever or never see life. And it doesn't mean they cannot repent postmortem and be saved. So John 3:36 doesn't oppose universalism.

LoveGodsWord said:
The scriptures teach what happens to those who believe and follow God's Word and the unrepentant wicked and simply say..

JOHN 3:36 HE THAT BELIEVES ON THE SON HAS EVERLASTING LIFE: AND HE THAT BELIEVES NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; but the wrath of God stays on him.

Likewise the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9). Does that mean they cannot become righteous and then enter the kingdom of God? No. Likewise it's the same idea in Jn.3:36. So John 3:36 doesn't oppose universalism & fails as a "proof text" against it.

LoveGodsWord said:
The scripture subject matter is to those who believe and follow God's Word and those who do not believe and follow God's Word and their rewards.

1. Those who believe and follow God's Word (the saved; God's people) receive eternal life.
2. Those who do not believe and follow God's Word (the unrepentant wicked) do not receive eternal life.

That is along the same lines as what you've posted above & i've already addressed & corrected there.

The stubborn only do not receive life as long as they are stubborn. Since all will receive life, no one will remain stubborn forever, as these verses prove:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

LoveGodsWord said:
Nonsense. Please provide a single scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked will receive eternal life after the second coming? There is none.

See above. Rom.5:18-19, 1 Cor.15:22-28; Col.1:16, 20; Phil.2:9-11, etc.

ClementofA · May 31, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
NONSENSE your mistaken again! (highlighted claim red emphasis mine in relation to JOHN 3:36). We are discussing JOHN 3:36 nearly every parrallel translation outside of the KJV translates JOHN 3:36 as "eternal life" or everlasting life or life everlasting (see previous parrallel translation section above in this post to JOHN 3:36 on the saved receiving eternal life and the unrepentant wicked not receiving everlasting life.

It's irrelevant how most translations translate anything. What matters is the truth, not majority opinion. If you think majority view equals truth, you'ld have to give up your SDA beliefs and become a Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox instead. You'ld have to give up the SDA "soul sleep" doctrine & other SDA views which are a minority opinion.

Why do most translations say "eternal" instead of "eonian" etc at Jn.3:36? Because they want to sell to church goers & make money? Because it's the theological bias of the translators who are parroting one another? Because it's all part of the system to scare people going back to the "Holy Crusades", Inquisitionist torture chambers and Dark Ages? Because the translators, like most Christians, have not seriously researched biblical universalism & are just following their denomination's statement of faith?
How many are well informed of, & have studied, universalist & annihilationist arguments? Do many simply blindly accept what their pastor, priest, or denomination say? In the enlightened internet age is the belief in endless torments on the decline as many become annihilationists, universalists or hopeful universalists instead.

In the early church universalism was the orthodox (biblical) view & may have been the orthodox (majority) view for centuries (see urls below) prior to the dark ages. It may also be today, or be on the way to becoming, the majority Christian view (see urls below):

Early Church Writings Fathers:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab.../©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Lawrence R. Farley

LoveGodsWord said:
GREEK Eternal (αἰώνιος) life (ζωή)

BDAG Definition eternal.
αἰώνιος (ία Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; OdeSol 11:22; TestAbr A; JosAs 8:11 cod. A; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; mss. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; AcPl BMM recto 27=Ox 1602, 29; Just., A I, 8, 4 al.; B-D-F §59, 2; Mlt-H. 157), ον eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; ins, pap, LXX, En, TestSol, TestAbr A, Test12Patr; JosAs 12:12; GrBar 4:16; ApcEsdr; ApcMos 29; Ps.-Phocyl. 112; Just.; Tat. 17, 1; Ath., Mel.; standard epithet for princely, esp. imperial, power: OGI index VIII; BGU 176, 12; 303, 2; 309, 4; Sb 7517, 5 [211/12 A.D.] κύριος αἰ.; al. in pap; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I B.C.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv.

Some other lexicons & scholars disagree with BDAG. For example:

Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon gives "lasting for an age" as its first definition:
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions

Why does BDAG ignore and leave out all those finite uses of aionios listed at the url above? Bias? Ignorance? Filthy lucre?

LoveGodsWord said:
So no dear friend. Can you see your error here? Near all parallel translation translate JOHN 3:36 as "eternal"(αἰώνιος) in context to life (ζωή) the meaning of αἰώνιος in applied to JOHN 3:36 (and 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9) is a period or age of unending duration; without end; context is to life the correct translation is shown in nearly every parrallel translation of JOHN 3:36 as shown in the previous section above. You simply wrong dear friend and spreading misinformation. This is only posted as a help and correction for you. I hope you can receive it in the Spirit it was given and be blessed.

Those are erroneous remarks as i've shown above here in this post, in my previous post & others re the same passage, namely Jn.3:36. See also these entire threads:

Could most modern translations be in error?

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?

ClementofA · May 31, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Destruction or Ruin?
The word translated as ‘destruction’ in this verse is OLETHROS (or OLETHRON is an alternative spelling). The basic definition is ‘ruin, destruction’. Let’s initially consider the English meaning of those two words.

‘Ruin’ tends to imply a loss of function and therefore normally applies to objects that have some function. For example, we say that a cell phone was ruined by water. In that instance, the phone continues to exists, but it no longer functions as phone. Or, we might say a shirt was ruined by a stain. In that case, the shirt continues to exist, but it ceases to function as a shirt for us because we no longer want to wear it due to the stain. In both of these instances, the object continues to exist, but no longer functions as intended.

‘Destruction’, along with the verb form ‘destroy’, tends to imply the cessation of existence. For example, we might write that the records were destroyed in the fire, and the reader would understand that the records no longer exists. Or, we might write that a person's confidence was destroyed by an incident, and the reader would understand that his confidence no longer exists. On the other hand, sometimes the word ‘destroy’ in English can mean ruin - a loss of function with continued existence. We might write that the car was destroyed in the wreck. In that case, we would understand that the car continued to exist as a mass of twisted metal, but no longer functions as a car. Therefore, our English word ‘destruction’ could be used to mean either loss of function or cessation of existence.

In that way, the Greek word OLETHROS parallels very closely the way the word ‘destruction’ is used in English – it can be used to express either loss of function or cessation of existence. Given the multiple meanings of OLETHROS, we can’t know purely by definition whether Paul intended to express the loss of function or the cessation of existence.

He continues:

LoveGodsWord said:
Even so, we can gain additional clues by examining how Paul uses that word elsewhere in Scripture.

OLETHROS is used by Paul only four other times (Note: My bible software groups Hebrews with those books written by Paul. That seems unlikely, but I think it's fair to use Hebrews as an additional example of how words were used near the time of Paul). The table below lists those instances in the left column, with my conclusion as to its meaning in the right column:

The author's comments on 1 Cor.5:5 above are sort of weird. First he says it "is not clear what Paul intends" and then he says he does "feel confident" that Paul intends the meaning that "the flesh will cease existing". Consider the similar case of Job's trial where Satan destroyed (ruined) Job's flesh, yet Job's flesh did not cease existing for a moment let alone forever as in endless annihilationism. Rather his flesh was ruined. And that trial worked out well for Job in the end. One might even say Job's spirit was saved, for he overcame his apparent bitterness against his false "comforters" & prayed for them.

In Hebrews 11:28 the Greek word is olothreuó (Strongs # 3645) according to biblehub. Not olethros (Strongs # 3639) as occurs in 2 Thess.1:9; 1 Cor.5:5; 1 Thess.5:3 & 1 Tim.6:9. In Heb.11:28 evidently the meaning is death, physical death, not endless annihilation, since they will be resurrected. So it concerns the temporary ruin, unto death, of the physical body. The Greek word there does not support the annihilationists meaning of endless annihilation.

Further re 2 Thess.1:9, Jason Pratt said:

"Which definitely refers to hopeful punishment (and expected salvation in the same day of the Lord to come), not annihilation, when Paul uses it to talk about handing the Stepmom-Sleeping Guy over to Satan for the whole-destruction of the flesh in 1 Cor 5:5.

"Paul compares it to a birth-pang, which is dangerous but hardly hopeless annihilation (and is generally regarded as very hopeful) at 1 Thess 5:3 (talking about the same day to come).

"Paul uses the term to describe people killed by God in the past at 1 Cor 10:10, which can hardly be annihilation unless the resurrection of the evil as well as the good is denied.

"2 Thess 1:9 uses phrases similar to those found in Isaiah 2, talking about the same coming event, which is part of a block of prophecy where those wholly ruined aren't annihilated, but eventually repent of their sins and go to the "survivors" of God's wrath to be reconciled to God, which God accepts washing them clean with spirit and with fire. (Isaiah 4.) Again, far from a result of hopeless annihilation.

"2 Thess 1 is actually one of my scriptural testimonies 'for' universal salvation."

Annihilation places huge doubt on Universalism

Note re JP's remarks above: 1 Cor.10:10 has the Greek word olothreutés (Strongs # 3644) according to biblehub. Not olethros (Strongs # 3639) as occurs in 2 Thess.1:9; 1 Cor.5:5; 1 Thess.5:3 & 1 Tim.6:9.

LoveGodsWord said:
By my count, OLETHROS is used twice to express cessation of existence, once to express ruin with ongoing existence, and once in a way that is unclear. This score of 2-1-1 lends credence to the suggestion that Paul intended to communicate that those who suffered the destruction in II Thessalonians would cease to exist, but it is not conclusive.

My remarks above obviously would not agree with that conclusion & explain why.

LoveGodsWord said:
Unfortunately, the passages above are the only passages in the entire New Testament where OLETHROS is used, so we can't refer there for other instances. But we can continue our investigation by asking this question:

Does the Bible contain passages that demonstrate the presence of God as an annihilating force?

Biblical Precedence for Annihilation Coming from the Presence of the Lord
Even though we have limited data to examine the specific word (OLETHROS) that Paul used, we can see if there are other examples in the Bible regarding this concept of annihilation in the presence of God. If we do conduct that investigation, we see multiple instances where God's presence is undoubtedly presented as a force of annihilation. Here are some examples:

Many places in Scripture express the idea that the presence of God causes the cessation of human existence. Here are some passages that discuss the destruction that comes from the presence of God:

Lev 10:1-2 Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. And fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD.

Exo 33:18-23 Then Moses said, "I pray You, show me Your glory!" And He said, "I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion." But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!" Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."

Num 16:20-21 Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, "Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them instantly."

Deu 9:3 "Know therefore today that it is the LORD your God who is crossing over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and He will subdue them before you, so that you may drive them out and destroy them quickly, just as the LORD has spoken to you.

Heb 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

Heb 12:28-29 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

A number of those passages evidently refer to merely the temporary ruin of the physical body until it is resurrected, not the endless annihilation of anyone.

LoveGodsWord said:
There are many more. Those passages that reference fire are especially applicable to II Thessalonians 1:9 because we are told immediately preceding this verse that, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ”

Yet 2 Thess.1:9 makes no mention of the Lord using that fire on any wicked ones.

LoveGodsWord said:
Conversely, I know of no place in Scripture where the presence of God leaves a man alive, but in a ruined state.

At least one comes immediately to mind off the top of my head:

Rev.14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise into the eons of the eons. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

LoveGodsWord said:
Are we to believe that the God who is repeatedly described as a consuming fire will, at the final judgment, be transformed into a ruining fire?

Look at the account of wicked King Nebuchadnezzar, in Daniel, for example. God was the instrument of destruction (ruin) to his soul for 7 years. Thereafter Love Omnipotent restored him from ruin to saneness of mind. Much like the prodigal son who was ruined (Luke 15) and later restored from ruination.

LoveGodsWord said:
A clear precedent exists that the presence of God will totally consume unbelievers.

Evidently not. See above.

And why should it "totally consume" unbelievers when it doesn't do so to believers? Has Love Almighty's love expired so extremely quickly like a carton of milk? Has the blood of Christ shed for all become polluted and useless? Is the Saviour impotent to save? Did He create man so poorly that salvation is impossible? Or are all things possible with Love Omnipotent?

LoveGodsWord said:
The annihilationist's view of this passage is the view that is most consistent with other passages that describe what happens when the fire of God’s presence is directed toward men.

Not from the evidence presented thus far. Particularly that in Revelation where the lake of fire is spoken of.

LoveGodsWord said:
Separation
In my mind, the most significant difference among various translations is whether Paul intended express an action of separation in this passage, or an action of annihilation. In the NASB translation above, this notion of separation is indicated by the insertion of the word ‘away’ into their translation. What is the justification for this?

At the heart of the issue is the correct translation of the Greek word APO. APO is defined to mean ‘from, off from, away from’. In II Thessalonians 1:9, the NASB translators have translated the Greek word APO as ‘away from’. Given that ‘away from’ is one option included in the Greek to English dictionaries, it might appear that ‘away from’ is a valid translation in this instance. A deeper investigation reveals some problems with that conclusion.

APO is used in Greek almost exactly the way ‘from’ is used in English. There are many variations of what APO can mean, but it most often expresses either the idea of source or the idea of separation. You might say, ‘I received a letter from (APO) John’. In that use, APO is used to connect a letter to its source, John. Alternatively, you might say, ‘Step away from (APO) the edge.’ In that use, (APO) is used to connect the verb (step away) to the object from which separation is desired, the edge.

As an undergraduate at DePauw University, I took two semesters of Greek. That does not qualify me as an expert in Greek. However, it does give some skill in making use of Greek dictionaries and other resources. One of those resources is Dr. Carl Huffman, who was my professor for those two semesters of Greek. Dr. Huffman is a wonderful Greek scholar but is not a theologian, by his own admission. I asked him if this word APO should be translated as ‘from’ or ‘away from’ in this passage.

He did generally concur with the Greek-to-English dictionary in saying that APO should sometimes be translated as ‘away from’. Here is an example he gave:

EBOKETO MOUNOS APO ALLON
grazing alone away from the others

In this passage, a man comes upon a cow that is grazing alone, away from the other cows. The best translation of APO is ‘away from’. Why is that? Because the context demands it. The words immediately preceding APO are ‘grazing alone’ and the words immediately after are ‘the others’. That context makes it unambiguously clear that APO is intended to express separation and therefore validates the translation of APO as ‘away from’. Because of situations like this, authors of a Greek to English dictionary would need to include the possibility of translating APO as ‘away from’.

However, nothing about the word APO expresses separation on its own. APO can properly be used in situations where the context demands an understanding of separation, but the presence of APO does not bring to a passage any connotation of separation – it is only a connector.

Consider this passage from Paul in Romans 1:7

to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from (APO) God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

It would be absurd to assert that Paul intended to mean, "Grace to you and peace away from God..." Nothing in the immediate vicinity of APO implies any concept of separation, so we clearly understand that God is the source of the grace and peace.

Let’s look at another example from Scripture that closely resembles II Thessalonians 1:9. The exact phrase ‘from the presence of the Lord’ that is found in II Thessalonians is also found in another book of the New Testament. In Acts 3:19, Peter says this:

Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from (APO) the presence of the Lord;

If the translators of the NASB were to translate this verse in the same way they translated II Thessalonions, they would translate it this way:

Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come away from (APO) the presence of the Lord;

Of course they didn’t do that. Why? Because there is no context expressing the idea of separation in this passage. It would be poor translating to insert the word ‘away’ into Acts 3:19. It makes much more sense to say that the presence of the Lord is the source of the refreshing.

I would like to demonstrate this even more clearly. Referring back to my undergraduate professor Dr. Huffman, he went on to say that the best way to understand what Paul meant is to look at other examples of his own writing. To properly translate passages, general examples from the language can be helpful, but specific examples from the same writer are the most conclusive.

I used software to find every instance in the NASB where Paul used the word APO. You can see those verses here. I found 105 verses (Note: my software includes ‘Hebrews’ as one of Paul’s letters) Of those 105 instances, only 5 times did the resulting English sentence include the phrase ‘away from’. That is, in 100 times out of 105 possibilities, APO is translated simply as ‘from’. Clearly, the translators of the NASB believe that APO should not be translated as ‘away from’ in the vast majority of situations.

to be continued...

Thus concludes post 1 of 4 posts from the article which apparently came from here:

II Thessalonians 1:9

Lord willing, as time permits, i'll address the other 3 posts.

ClementofA · May 31, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
But regardless of whether you attach 'away' to the verb or to APO in those four examples above, you undoubtedly have clear context that expresses the notion of separation. That is not the case in II Thessalonians 1:9, where APO does not even follow a verb at all. That is, the phrase 'from the presence of the Lord' directly modifies the noun 'destruction'. Nothing in the context of that verse expresses any notion of separation.

Note: here the author states "the phrase 'from the presence of the Lord' directly modifies the noun 'destruction'." So it would seem the "destruction" (or, ruin) comes "from the presence of the Lord", not from any fire.

LoveGodsWord said:
It makes perfect sense to say that the source of the destruction will be the glorious strength of the Lord. As mentioned earlier, our God is described as a 'consuming fire', so the notion of destruction coming from his strength is very consistent with many other scriptures.

Here the author states much the same as he does above, but also tries to associate the Lord's strength (or presence) to "a consuming fire". The 2 Thess.1:9 context, however, speaks of two separate things, the fire and His presence. Also it makes no reference to a "consuming fire", let alone one that destroys (or, ruins) anyone in any way.

LoveGodsWord said:
Just like in Acts 3:19, where the presence of the Lord was the source of the refreshing, the most obvious and straight-forward translation of this verse is that the presence of Lord is the source of the destruction.

A similar comment to those above. Fire is not mentioned.

The presence of the Lord can bring refreshing to some (Acts 3:19) and ruin or physical death, perhaps, to others (2 Thess.1:9).

LoveGodsWord said:
A Different Approach
Let’s investigate even further. To do so, I want to change my approach. Up to this point, we have been starting with the words Paul used and asking asking what he meant when he used those words, as illustrated in this diagram:

That is a natural way to approach the problem, but is not the only way to investigate the passage. Another way to approach the problem is to ask how Paul might have expressed himself, given a certain belief, as illustrated in this diagram:

First, how might Paul have expressed a belief in eternal separation or torment? To answer that question, lets first consider how it might be expressed in English. We have examples from modern day English writers who believe in eternal torment. What you will consistently find among those who believe in eternal torment is the use of words like ‘never-ending torment’, ‘eternal conscious torment’ and ‘eternal separation from God’. It is unlikely that a modern-day biblical scholar would express his opinion as believing in eternal torment with the phrase “everlasting destruction”. It would be too easy for his audience to conclude that he meant “an eternally irreversible cessation of existence”.

The universalist may reject the translation "everlasting" there as in other passages where aionion occurs.

As for the use of the word "destruction" (or, ruin) rather than "torment", the reference may be to ruin of the soul or physical body or both. If the idea is ruin unto death of the physical body, then "torment" would not be appropriate. If the idea is ruin to the soul this may be understood as implying sufferings or torments. Given Paul's universalist teachings in his other epistles of which the audience may have been very well aware, the use of "ruin" instead of "torment" at 2 Thess.1:9 is understandable. Elsewhere we read of torments in the lake of fire & Hades & weeping & gnashing of teeth, few & many stripes, etc. His audience may have been very well aware of those also.

LoveGodsWord said:
So, the obvious question is this: If modern writers would not express eternal torment with the phrase 'eternal destruction', then why do we assume that Paul would express the concept that way? Greek words that mean ‘torment’, ‘conscious’ and ‘separation’ were available to Paul. If he wanted to express himself clearly, why didn’t he use those words? Not once in all of Paul's writings do we find the phrases ‘never-ending torment’, ‘eternal conscious torment’ or ‘eternal separation from God’.

Paul rejected the "never-ending torment" doctrine. I think we can agree on that.

LoveGodsWord said:
On the other hand, what if Paul believed in annihilation? How might he have expressed himself? First, we should recognize that the words ‘annihilation’, ‘obliteration’ and ‘extinction” are Latin words and did not exist in the Greek language. Many of the English words that express cessation of existence today were not available to Paul. In fact, Professor Carl Huffman knows of no Greek word that unambiguously means annihilation. OLETHROS is one of the strongest words available in the Greek language to express the cessation of existence.

To best, i.e. unambiguously, express "endless" or "eternal" annihilation Paul wouldn't have used the Greek word aionion. But in 2 Thess.1:9 he does. That is a problem for the endless annihilation viewpoint of this verse.

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Thus concludes my response to post 2 of 4 posts from the article which apparently came from here:

II Thessalonians 1:9

Lord willing, as time permits, i'll address the other 2 posts.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · May 31, 2020

• Tatian the Assyrian - Address of Tatian to the Greeks - Chapter 14. (XIV)
(120-180 A.D.)

ANF2 Address of Tatian to the Greeks

"And as we, to whom it now easily happens To Die, Afterwards Receive The Immortal With Enjoyment,
Or The Painful With Immortality ......."

.

LoveGodsWord · May 31, 2020

ClementofA said:
I do, as i have shown you in dozens of posts.

Indeed. You copy and paste content that is not your own from Universalist websites, spam them here and when they are addressed you do not answer the content in the posts scriptures and questions shared with you.

ClementofA said:
And you have no scripture that teaches that the wicked NEVER receive eternal life after the second coming.

Nonsense dear friend it is "UNIVERSALISM" that has no scriptures that teaches that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming do you? Yet as shown earlier, God's Word not mine says that the unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life not me...

1. The unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life *JOHN 3:36
2. The unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9
3. The unrepentant wicked partake of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29
4. The unrepentant wicked in the second resurrection of condemnation partake of the second death in the Lake of fire *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8.
5. There is no more resurrections after the second death and no more death.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear.

LoveGodsWord · May 31, 2020

ClementofA said:
Why do you misrepresent things with statements like that? How would you know what i "feel"? I only know one who is all knowing & it isn't you.

You seemed a little upset when we last talked when I was here last. Were you upset?

ClementofA said:
It would be helpful in that regard if you answered my post # 1546.

Also the entire post # 1549.

And all of post # 1552. Including my questions for you at the end, such as re Rom.6:23: Do you think "death" there means eternal destruction as in endless annihilation?

All of post # 1553.

Post #1554 as well.

Don't forget post #1555.

And then there's post #1556.

Others, too: #1538, including these (and other) questions you avoided answering:

Post 1513 another misrepresentation?

And you never addressed & refuted my points there.

Post 1517, you never addressed those points properly.

Post 1518 re your misrepresentation of universalism.

Post 1519 re John 3, never answered.

Posts 1481 & 1520, another misrepresentation of universalism.

Post 1483 yet another misrepresentation of universalism.

As you said, "If you want to have a discussion let's talk."

You addressing all of the above would be a start.

This is another repeat cut and past you have posted 3+ times already that has been already addressed and shown to be untrue. Your just repeating yourself again here dear friend. This post has already been addressed with links provided to posts that address yours showing your claims here. It is you that have not addressed the content of my posts. This is shown and addressed with links addressed here in post 1575. Your repeating yourself again. I guess you got nothing new have you. Why do you not wish to have a discussion with me?

LoveGodsWord · May 31, 2020

ClementofA said:
That's the same misrepresentation you were corrected regarding earlier in this thread:

What? No misrepresentations? They started in your first post in this thread, the OP.

It's a misrepresentation of universalism to state, as you do there, that it "does not hold anyone accountable for sin". Wrong, wrong, wrong!

You replied:

As someone who has read dozens of books by universalist authors, & dozens more by those opposed to universalism, and been active on many forums with other universalists posting, i believe i am in a position to know what they generally think about your misrepresentation at the beginning of post #1 of this thread. OTOH your post provided no evidence to support the misrepresentation.

That was the first of your misrepresentations of universalism in this thread.

Following is another of your misrepresentations of universalism in this thread (and i expect a search of the thread will uncover more):

That is incorrect & a misrepresentation of universalism. No one gets "eternal life without accepting God's gift of grace through faith". All those in the lake of fire will need to get right with their Maker, Love Omnipotnent, before they are allowed into the New Jerusalem, whose gates are never shut to the lost.

They are not saved at the second coming. They go to "hell" for a spell to be tormented (compare Lk.16:19-31; Rev.14:11; 20:10) until they pay what they owe (Mt.5:25-26; 18:34-35), namely repentance toward God & man & faith in Christ & His blood shed for all.

If you don't think that God torments people, then are we even reading the same bible? For the Scriptures speak of the (1) sufferings God brought on Job (Job 2), (2) on all women in child birth (Genesis), (3) on those in the lake of fire (Rev.14:11; 20:10), on all creation (Rom.8:18-21; Eccl.1:13), on believers (e.g. 2 Cor.12:7-9), on a stubborn "brother" (1 Cor.5:4-5), on those rejecting faith (1 Tim.1:19-20) & many, many more. What is the purpose of all such torments:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them".

Not to fry them with tortures till they are nonexistent forever.

I don't see the justice in an endless punishment for the sins of a relatively momentary lifetime. That makes no sense at all. Not only does your annihilationism (endless oblivion) theory make a mockery of Love Omnipotent's justice, it also turns Love Crucified's Love into a carton of milk that expires in no time at all. You have Him putting the wicked into torments until they cease to exist & never bringing them back. That's sadistic, pointless and to the detriment of God's glory.

None of His blood shed for all is wasted, but is used to save the world. After all, that is what He is, the Saviour of the world, the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29). That He does by His blood & bearing sin, not destroying the sinner out of existence & out of His love, joy & peace forever. No, Love Almighty does not hold neverending grudges, hate and bitterness against His created children. That would be unholy & sinful.

Even in this lifetime people get 2nd chances. Perhaps many more chances than that. Love Omnipotent's love doesn't expire like a carton of milk. He has an infinite number of chances to give. He says to forgive not just 7 times, but 70 X 7. He says love covers a multitude of sins. That's the Creator of the Scriptures & the Father God that i believe in.

I wonder how many chances Saul, who became Paul, had. Jesus said he was kicking against the goads. It sounds like he was resisting the Holy Spirit. Surely, as a serial killer of Christians, he had heard the gospel from those Christians he persecuted. Yet he refused to believe, again and again. It took a personal appearance from Christ Himself to save this man, whom scripture calls "the worst of sinners".

Jesus disciple Thomas is another example of getting at least a second chance. He refused to believe the Lord had risen, even after all that Jesus had taught him & the testimony of other disciples who had seen him. Like many atheists today he said he would refuse to believe until he saw Him & put his hand inside Him.

King David is another example of being given at least a second chance, if not many more. After all the Lord had done for him, including miracles, he committed premeditated adultery and murder.

Earlier you said universalism says people get a second chance. Now you're saying these people are "forced to repent". Which is it, a second "chance" or "forced to repent"?

So you can't see that the God Who saves ALL human beings into His endless love, joy and peace as any better than the God Who sadistically tortures MANY for all eternity? Wow. I'm speechless.

You say the God Who saves ALL human beings into His endless love, joy and peace is "not the God of love". And your Hitler nuking out of existence forever because His love expired like a carton of milk is "the God of love". Unbelievable. Is that actually what SDA's teach in their church meetings & publications, etc?

Been there, done that. See above.

My conscience & Lord Jesus will never allow me to agree with that.

You have misrepreseted what I have said here and did not answer my questions to you. I did not say at the second coming I said after the second coming. You then tried to build an argument around something I never said. Did you want to have another go?

LoveGodsWord · May 31, 2020

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ God did indeed send his son to be the Savior of the word dear Fine. It is too bad that not all people in the world will accept the gift of God's dear son. I believe the teachings of "UNIVERSALISM" makes a mockery of the cross by trying to teach that the unrepentant wicked recieve eternal life after the second coming without accepting the gift of God's grace through faith which is what the scriptures teach in HEBREWS 10:26-39. As the scritptures teach... Many are called but few are chosen Matthew 22:14... Wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it *MATTHEW 7:13-14

Your response..

ClementofA said:
That's the same misrepresentation you were corrected regarding earlier in this thread:

How is the above a misrepresentation? It is only God's Word and God's Word is the truth. Universalism claims all the unrepentant wicked will be saved after the second coming. God's Word says the wicked will be destroyed after the second coming...

2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9 [8], IN FLAMING FIRE TAKING VENGEANCE ON THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST: [9], WHO SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER;

Universalism claims that all men including the unrepentant wicked will receive eternal life. God's Word teaches that the unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life...

JOHN 3:36, HE THAT BELIEVES ON THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE: and HE THAT BELIEVES NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; BUT THE WRATH OF GOD STAYS ON HIM.

Universalism claims that all men including the unrepentant wicked will receive eternal life. God's Word teaches that the unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life. While God's Word teaches that the unrepentant wicked partake of the second death and do not receive eternal life.

JOHN 5:28-29 [28], Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE,[29], And shall come forth; THEY THAT HAVE DONE GOOD, TO THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE; and THEY THAT HAVE DONE EVIL, TO THE RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION (G2920 κρίσις means judgement past found guilty; condemnation; judgement given or pronounced; found guilty).

Links to....

REVELATION 20:6 [6], BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HAS PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HAS NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall REIGN WITH HIM A THOUSAND YEARS.

REVELATRION 21:7-8 [7], HE THAT OVERCOMES SHALL INHERIT ALL THINGS; AND I WILL BE HIS GOD, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON. [8], But THE FEARFUL, AND UNBELIEVING, AND THE ABOMINABLE, AND MURDERERS, AND FORNICATORS, AND SORCERERS, AND IDOLATERS, AND ALL LIARS, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH.

Universalism claims that all men including the unrepentant wicked will receive eternal life. God's Word teaches that there is no eternal life after the second death as the second death takes place for the unrepentant wicked, the devil and his angels in the lake of fire. God's Word teaches that those who are not written in the Lamb book of life do not receive life but death (second death)...

REVELATION 20:14-15 [14], And DEATH AND HELL WERE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH.[15], AND WHOEVER WAS NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

MATTHEW 25:41 [41], THEN SHALL HE SAY ALSO TO THEM ON THE LEFT HAND, DEPART FROM ME, YOU CURSED, INTO EVERLASTING FIRE (second death), PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS

Yet here we are with "UNIVERSALISM" teaching that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life at the second coming when it is God's Word the says they receive and partake of the second DEATH in the lake of fire?

Now dear friend. Please think about it. God said to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, you can eat of all the trees in the garden but not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. IN THE DAY YOU EAT THEREOF YOU WILL SURELY DIE!

Now the serpent (devil) was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, Yes, has God said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said to the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, YOU SHALL NOT EAT OF IT, NEITHER SHALL YOU TOUCH IT, LEST YOU DIE. And THE SERPENT SAID TO THE WOMAN, YOU SHALL NOT SURELY DIE: For God does know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. *GENESIS 3:1-5

Note dear friend that GOD says if you do these things YOU WILL SURELY DIE. The devil comes along tempting Eve and says do and do it YOU WILL NOT SURELY DIE. Sounds a bit like the teachings of "UNIVERSALISM" dont you think?

There is no scripture in all the bible that teaches that the unrepentant wicked receive everlasting life at the second coming of JESUS. According to the scripture they are desroyed in the second death in the lake of fire because they rejected the gift of God's grace through faith in the blood of JESUS and counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing. They suffer the consequences of their own sins which is DEATH (the second death) because they rejected the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; REVEALTION 20:14-15; REVELATION 21:7-8; JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9

Only God's Word is true dear friend and we should believe and follow them. UNIVERSALISM simply repeats the lies told to EVE in the garden of Eden.

Hope this helps...

LoveGodsWord · May 31, 2020

ClementofA said:
Romans 6:23 does not say the wages of sin is the second death.

Goodness. Why do you think the wages of sin is death and why do you think the unrepentant (from sin) partake of the second death? THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH to all those who reject the gift of God's Son through faith *ROMANS 6:23; REVEALTION 20:14-15; REVELATION 21:7-8; JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9. The wicked do not partake of eternal life *JOHN 3:36 because they do not believe and accept the gift of God's dear son and suffer the consequences wages of their own sins which is death *ROMANS 6:23. This is given after the second coming and is called the second death which is in the lake of fire.

(the rest of your post is repitition addressed elsewhere. Your just reposting the same content without addressing mine)

LoveGodsWord · May 31, 2020

ClementofA said:
I already addressed that fallacious conclusion in other posts in this thread & the post to which you were replying. You rely on a misleading, deceptive translation of Jn.3:36, such as that you posted above.

Just because you say so? No. And none of this so far addresses or refutes anything in my posts on the subject of John 3:36.

You were replying to my comment here in quotes:

"This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life. It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point."

As long as the unbelievers remains stubborn they will not be seeing life, but that doesn't mean they will remain stubborn forever or never see life. And it doesn't mean they cannot repent postmortem and be saved. So John 3:36 doesn't oppose universalism.

Likewise the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9). Does that mean they cannot become righteous and then enter the kingdom of God? No. Likewise it's the same idea in Jn.3:36. So John 3:36 doesn't oppose universalism & fails as a "proof text" against it.

That is along the same lines as what you've posted above & i've already addressed & corrected there.

The stubborn only do not receive life as long as they are stubborn. Since all will receive life, no one will remain stubborn forever, as these verses prove:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

See above. Rom.5:18-19, 1 Cor.15:22-28; Col.1:16, 20; Phil.2:9-11, etc.

You selectively part micro quoted my post here but did not address any of my posts content again. Did you want to have another go? It seems your lost for words in this post of your and re-cutting and pasting the same content that has already been addressed elsewhere without addressing the new content in the post provided to you. I am sure anyone can see this by visiting my post to you. PLEASE ADDRESS THE CONTENT IN THIS POST PLEASE IN POST # 1591, that refutes your claims to JOHN 3:36.

LoveGodsWord · May 31, 2020

ClementofA said:
It's irrelevant how most translations translate anything.What matters is the truth, not majority opinion.

I see so what was posted to you is irrelavent, yet it was you that was trying to claim earlier that the translation that I was using for JOHN 3:36 (kjv) was a mistranslation to "eternal life" in JOHN 3:36 when nearly every translation translates JOHN 3:36 as "eternal life" as proven in post # 1591 linked that you conveniently snipped out of your response here. Nearly every translation renders αἰώνιος ζωή as "eternal life or life eternal or everlasting life".

So your saying now that all these independent 27 translations with all their independent groups of Greek scholars have the translation of JOHN 3:36 wrong? Well dear friend perhaps you need to take this up with each translations, groups of Greek scholars from each of the 27 different translations and go and tell them they all got it wrong and you only have the true understanding of JOHN 3:36? .

Nothing personal dear freind but your claims here are not only repetitive but simply not true. You were also shown the most respected Lexicon translation in BDAG that agrees with all 27 translation and disagrees with your claims. The evidence is against you dear friend. Let's be honest please (BDAG evidence supplied in post # 1592 linked).

It seems your trying to support the false teachings of "Universalism" not matter what evidence is handed to you. You are free to believe as you wish. I have only provided the reasons why I do not believe "Universalism is biblical. I think you are beginning to see this. It seems you have been provided the truth here but you refuse to see it. So there is nothing really more for me to add here.

To me dear friend only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it. Ignoring it does not make it disappear. You have not addressed anything in the above linked posts to support the teachings of UNIVERSALISM. You have simply only denied the evidence that disagrees with you and every Greek scholar in 27 independent translation of the bible and JOHN 3:36. Well you know what they say. You can lead a horse to water....

Hope this helps.

LoveGodsWord · May 31, 2020

ClementofA said:
He continues:

The author's comments on 1 Cor.5:5 above are sort of weird. First he says it "is not clear what Paul intends" and then he says he does "feel confident" that Paul intends the meaning that "the flesh will cease existing". Consider the similar case of Job's trial where Satan destroyed (ruined) Job's flesh, yet Job's flesh did not cease existing for a moment let alone forever as in endless annihilationism. Rather his flesh was ruined. And that trial worked out well for Job in the end. One might even say Job's spirit was saved, for he overcame his apparent bitterness against his false "comforters" & prayed for them.

In Hebrews 11:28 the Greek word is olothreuó (Strongs # 3645) according to biblehub. Not olethros (Strongs # 3639) as occurs in 2 Thess.1:9; 1 Cor.5:5; 1 Thess.5:3 & 1 Tim.6:9. In Heb.11:28 evidently the meaning is death, physical death, not endless annihilation, since they will be resurrected. So it concerns the temporary ruin, unto death, of the physical body. The Greek word there does not support the annihilationists meaning of endless annihilation.

Further re 2 Thess.1:9, Jason Pratt said:

"Which definitely refers to hopeful punishment (and expected salvation in the same day of the Lord to come), not annihilation, when Paul uses it to talk about handing the Stepmom-Sleeping Guy over to Satan for the whole-destruction of the flesh in 1 Cor 5:5.

"Paul compares it to a birth-pang, which is dangerous but hardly hopeless annihilation (and is generally regarded as very hopeful) at 1 Thess 5:3 (talking about the same day to come).

"Paul uses the term to describe people killed by God in the past at 1 Cor 10:10, which can hardly be annihilation unless the resurrection of the evil as well as the good is denied.

"2 Thess 1:9 uses phrases similar to those found in Isaiah 2, talking about the same coming event, which is part of a block of prophecy where those wholly ruined aren't annihilated, but eventually repent of their sins and go to the "survivors" of God's wrath to be reconciled to God, which God accepts washing them clean with spirit and with fire. (Isaiah 4.) Again, far from a result of hopeless annihilation.

"2 Thess 1 is actually one of my scriptural testimonies 'for' universal salvation."

Annihilation places huge doubt on Universalism

Note re JP's remarks above: 1 Cor.10:10 has the Greek word olothreutés (Strongs # 3644) according to biblehub. Not olethros (Strongs # 3639) as occurs in 2 Thess.1:9; 1 Cor.5:5; 1 Thess.5:3 & 1 Tim.6:9.

My remarks above obviously would not agree with that conclusion & explain why.

A number of those passages evidently refer to merely the temporary ruin of the physical body until it is resurrected, not the endless annihilation of anyone.

Yet 2 Thess.1:9 makes no mention of the Lord using that fire on any wicked ones.

At least one comes immediately to mind off the top of my head:

Rev.14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise into the eons of the eons. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Look at the account of wicked King Nebuchadnezzar, in Daniel, for example. God was the instrument of destruction (ruin) to his soul for 7 years. Thereafter Love Omnipotent restored him from ruin to saneness of mind. Much like the prodigal son who was ruined (Luke 15) and later restored from ruination.

Evidently not. See above.

And why should it "totally consume" unbelievers when it doesn't do so to believers? Has Love Almighty's love expired so extremely quickly like a carton of milk? Has the blood of Christ shed for all become polluted and useless? Is the Saviour impotent to save? Did He create man so poorly that salvation is impossible? Or are all things possible with Love Omnipotent?

Not from the evidence presented thus far. Particularly that in Revelation where the lake of fire is spoken of.

Thus concludes post 1 of 4 posts from the article which apparently came from here:

II Thessalonians 1:9

Lord willing, as time permits, i'll address the other 3 posts.

Hmm what content did you address in POST # 1364 linked dear friend? Nothing! Did you want to have another go? All you did is the same mistake that I tried to point out to you in another post the other day.

A couple of points I will bring to your attention again dear friend that was shared with you earlier only in love and only as a help to you that you or anyone else who reads these posts will clearly see that proves this section of your post is in error is that...

1. Hebrew/ Greek word meaning, interpretation and application is solely linked to context of scripture application. This is because unlike the english the Hebrew and Greek word meaning normally have more than one meaning. It is the application to context the determines interpretation in biblical exegesis.

Why is understanding this important?

2. You will notice in my reply to you above I have only linked everything in our discussion here to 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 which are the scriptures that are brought up to "eternal destruction" right? Everything I have provided in POST # 1364 linked and the next following posts are to the context of 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 which is also demonstrated in nearly all parallel translations show here...

New International Version
They will be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

New Living Translation
They will be punished with ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power.

English Standard Version
They will suffer the punishment of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Berean Study Bible
They will suffer the penalty of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might,

Berean Literal Bible
who will suffer the penalty of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

New American Standard Bible
These will pay the penalty of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

New King James Version
These shall be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

King James Bible
Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Christian Standard Bible
They will pay the penalty of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION from the Lord's presence and from his glorious strength

Contemporary English Version
Their punishment will be ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, and they will be kept far from the presence of our Lord and his glorious strength.

Good News Translation
They will suffer the punishment of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, separated from the presence of the Lord and from his glorious might,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
These will pay the penalty of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION from the Lord's presence and from His glorious strength

International Standard Version
Such people will suffer the punishment of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power

NET Bible
They will undergo the penalty of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,

New Heart English Bible
who will pay the penalty: EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For they will be paid in judgment: ETERNAL DESTRUCTION from the face of our Lord and from the glory of his power,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
They will pay the penalty by being DESTROYED FOREVER, by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power.

New American Standard 1977
And these will pay the penalty of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

King James 2000 Bible
Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

American King James Version
Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

American Standard Version
who shall suffer punishment, even ETERNAL DESTRUCTION from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Douay-Rheims Bible
Who shall suffer ETERNAL PUNISHMENT IN DESTRUCTION, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:

Darby Bible Translation
who shall pay the penalty [of] EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from [the] presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

English Revised Version
who shall suffer punishment, even ETERNAL DESTRUCTION from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Webster's Bible Translation
Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Weymouth New Testament
They will pay the penalty of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty,

World English Bible
who will pay the penalty: ETERNAL DESTRUCTION from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Young's Literal Translation
who shall suffer justice -- DESTRUCTION AGE-DURING -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

I will add the LEXICON support the above and why you are in error in the next post...

LoveGodsWord · May 31, 2020

LEXICON GREEK agreement to the 27 translations listed above...

BDAG Definition eternal.
αἰώνιος (ία Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; OdeSol 11:22; TestAbr A; JosAs 8:11 cod. A; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; mss. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; AcPl BMM recto 27=Ox 1602, 29; Just., A I, 8, 4 al.; B-D-F §59, 2; Mlt-H. 157), ον eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; ins, pap, LXX, En, TestSol, TestAbr A, Test12Patr; JosAs 12:12; GrBar 4:16; ApcEsdr; ApcMos 29; Ps.-Phocyl. 112; Just.; Tat. 17, 1; Ath., Mel.; standard epithet for princely, esp. imperial, power: OGI index VIII; BGU 176, 12; 303, 2; 309, 4; Sb 7517, 5 [211/12 A.D.] κύριος αἰ.; al. in pap; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I B.C.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv.

BDAG Definition destruction.
ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ (ὄλλυμι ‘destroy’; Hom.+; SIG 527, 82 [c. 220 B.C.]; BGU 1027 XXVI, 11; LXX; PsSol 8:1; TestReub 4:6; 6:3; Philo; Jos., Ant. 17, 38, Vi. 264; SibOr 3, 327; 348)
① a state of destruction, destruction, ruin, death in our lit. always w. some kind of transcendent coloring (hostile spirits work ἐπʼ ὀλέθρῳ τοῦ γένους τῶν ἀνθρώπων Orig., C. Cels. 8, 54, 32): ἔρχεταί τινι ὄλ. ruin comes upon someone 1 Cl 57:4 (Pr 1:26). αἰφνίδιος αὐτοῖς ἐφίσταται ὄλ. sudden destruction will come upon them 1 Th 5:3. βυθίζειν τινὰ εἰς ὄλ. plunge someone headlong into ruin 1 Ti 6:9. ὄλ. αἰώνιος eternal death (TestReub 6:3) 2 Th 1:9 (s. ὀλέθριος).

.............

Now what is it that you have addressed in the post you are quoting from? All you have said is that you disagree with 27 independent translations of αἰώνιος ὄλεθρος and the 27 groups of Greek Scholars that made these translations of 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and the BDAG Lexicon which support the 27 independant translations listed above that is the most respect of all LEXICONS for Greek definitions in context to scripture appplication.

Now why have I highlighted point 1 and point 2 above?

You have moved away from the context of 2 THESSALONIANS as you did earlier when we were discussing JOHN 3:36 to other scriptures that use different contexts and application of the Greek words eternal (αἰώνιος) and destruction (ὄλεθρος) which has led you to an incorrect interpretation and application of αἰώνιος and ὄλεθρος as your looking at the contexts in relation to other scriptures away from 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9.

To me this and your misreading of the Lexicon earlier in context to 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 says you do not understand Greek and Hebrew word study. This is why this section of your post is in error as your applying the application of αἰώνιος and ὄλεθρος to different scriptures contexts that determins the Greek word meanings away from 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 which is what we are discussing here. I can see your having problems now not only with scripture context but also not understanding the context importance of Hebrew and Greek word use and application. This is posted only as a help to you so you can be corrected and learn from it. It is up to you to receive the correction or not though.

So NO you have not addressed anything in the post you are quoting from and this post (and the one above it) proves why you are in error. Now dear friend this is the foundations premise to POST # 1364 linked

You have already fallen before you have even started. The post shown here and the linked posts in this one and the ones that follow in regards to 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 prove you are in error here. Why not receive God's correction and be blessed? Ignoring God's Word here does not make it disappeat.

Only sent in love and as a help to you. You are free to believe as you wish.

LoveGodsWord · May 31, 2020

ClementofA said:
Some other lexicons & scholars disagree with BDAG. For example:

Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon gives "lasting for an age" as its first definition:
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Oh my goodness I just checked your links and your claims that the above LEXICONS disagree with BDAG. You either do not know how to read a LEXICON or your not being truthful. The do not disagree at all. They just do not include 2 THESSALONIAN 1:9 and not comprehensive Lexicons only showing application to different scripture contexts.

ClementofA said:
Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon gives "lasting for an age" as its first definition.

Each definition of a Greek Word used in a Lexicon is based on the scripture context that it references. The Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon reference is not to context of 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and application is to other NT scripture contexts that use the Word αἰώνιος. It is not looking at αἰώνιος application to 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 as it is not as complete and comprehensive as BDAG. Your claim here is not true and is only showing you do not know how to read a Lexicon.

ClementofA said:
2. Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance

This is not referencing any applicaiton to 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9.
None of the above Lexicons disagree with BDAG at all. They are simply incomplete and not as comprehensive and do not consider the applications and contexts to 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9

................

On the same page and link you will see that Thayer's Expanded Definition gives the same definition 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 which is included in it's LEXICON as does BDAG as does Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament.

You need to learn how to read a LEXICON. The Lexicon definitions are all linked to specific scripture context to meaning and application. Nothing you have claimed here in your post above is true.

So what have you addressed? Nothing. You have just been shown to be in error again. Please accept this correction as a help and be blessed.

LoveGodsWord · May 31, 2020

ClementofA said:
I rest my case.

In this post and the one above, can I ask what case did you make and who were you arguing with and responding to? I still do not know who you are talking to or what post your trying to reference and respond to? Where you talking to yourself here? As I cannot find any posts that you are responding to in these two posts. (follow the link arrow next to your name to go to these posts)

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

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