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Agreed another presumption that is sadly not biblical.I think the presumption of Universalists is that those who will have to be punished for their sins and denied heaven until that is accomplished, will, during that process become aware of their sins, repent of them, and so finally be cleansed, remade, etc.
Dear girls & boys: our Father has built into His great draw in Jesus the Christ a flawless Plan of magnificent scope.
The word for today shall be “unprecedented.”
“Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus…”
NOTHING!
Not death.
Not life.
Not angels.
Not powers.
Not the present/ not the future.
No power.
Take your choice
ouden = nothing
medan = containing certain impossibilities
oudi ti = the most forceful expression
Ouden & megan & oudi ti declare it is impossible for anything to separate us from Abba:
NOTHING!
What do the prophets and sages proclaim?
Genesis=
18:18 all the nations of the earth will be blessed.
28:14 all the families of the earth will be blessed.
1 Kings=
8:43 all the people of the earth will come to know and fear you, just as your own people Israel do.
Psalms=
46:10 “I will be honored by every nation. I will be honored throughout the world.”
65:2 O you who hear prayer, to you shall all flesh come.
86:9 All the nations you made will come and bow before you, Lord; they will praise your holy name.
138:4 O Jehovah, all kings of earth confess Thee, When they have heard the sayings of Thy mouth.
Isaiah=
11:9 Nothing will hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, for as the waters fill the sea, so the earth will be filled with people who know the LORD.
52:10 The LORD will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God.
52:15 Kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they understand.
61:11 or as the earth brings forth its bud, and as the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord Yahweh will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.
65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, to a nation that was not called by my name.
66:18 it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
66:23 all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.
Lamentations=
3:31-32 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: but though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
(NLT)- For no one is abandoned by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he also shows compassion because of the greatness of his unfailing love.
Daniel=
7:14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
7:27 …the Most High. His kingdom will last forever, and all rulers will serve and obey him."
Micah=
4:1-5 …he will teach us his ways,
and we will walk in his paths."
For the LORD’s teaching will go out from Zion;
his word will go out from Jerusalem.
The LORD will mediate between peoples
and will settle disputes between strong nations far away.
They will hammer their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will no longer fight against nation,
nor train for war anymore.
Everyone will live in peace and prosperity,
enjoying their own grapevines and fig trees,
for there will be nothing to fear.
Habakkuk=
2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Jesus Christ is the One with "un" before the word limited.
The apostle John declares the Lamb takes away the sin of the world, not some of the world, the whole ungodly world.
His at-one-ment encompasses the radical all of pas.
"He is the at-one-ment for our sins"
AND
"not our sins ONLY"
BUT
"the sins of the whole world."
JOHN 1:29 [29], The next day John sees Jesus coming to him, and said, Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world.
JESUS has made provision for the sins of the whole world. The scriptures do not teach anywhere that all the world will accept the gift of God's dear son. Can you see the difference here?
What part of take away is evading your grasp?
The Lord Iesous takes away the sin of the world (period). This is NOT a provision, it is a happening.
The verb airo means "to seize, to lift up, take away," the sins of the whole ungodly world, the good, bad & ugly.
I don't think that sin itself is what keeps someone out of heaven. Sin is just a side-effect of a deeper issue--which is ultimately our proximity/relationship with God. If you have a predisposition to sin and don't care about whether you sin, you don't have a relationship with God and won't be saved.
Dear girls & boys: our Father has built into His great draw in Jesus the Christ a flawless Plan of magnificent scope.
The word for today shall be “unprecedented.”
“Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus…”
NOTHING!
Not death.
Not life.
Not angels.
Not powers.
Not the present/ not the future.
No power.
Take your choice
ouden = nothing
medan = containing certain impossibilities
oudi ti = the most forceful expression
Ouden & megan & oudi ti declare it is impossible for anything to separate us from Abba:
NOTHING!
The Living God does not present possibilities. When He declares thru the Apostle John Jesus Christ takes away the sin of the world, that is exactly what He does. That world is the whole ungodly mass of broken and bruised sinners of Adam1. The radical all of pas!
The verb airo means "to seize, to lift up, take away," the sins of the whole ungodly world, the good, bad & ugly.
Yup!
Adam1 = the many "made sinners"
That identical polus are destined to meet the Lord Jesus Christ.
Last Adam = the many "made righteous"
Every last one!
Unfortunately, you've already made a bad start when you start your post/claim based upon a straw man argument. It only serves to demonstrate your unfamiliarity with the subject matter. FYI Christian Universalism does not deny any of the conditional statements that accompany salvation. It does not deny the requirement to believe/trust in Jesus as Savior. It does not deny the requirement to obey God and abide in Him. These conditions that must be met are affirmed by Christian Universalism. Where universalism does differ is the belief that eventually all humans are reconciled to God - unlike ECT (eternal conscious torment) and annihilationism - both of which assert that the vast majority of humankind is never reconciled to God.IS OUR SALVATION CONDITIONAL ON BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING GOD'S WORD?
OLD TESTAMENT (Not definitive)
“IF” (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogitive, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.
We must do well according to Gods' Word (believe and follow) in order to be accepted...
GENESIS 4:7 IF (conditional) you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.
Consequences for not believing and following...
GENESIS 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live: and IF (conditional) you restore her not, know you that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.
EXODUS 4:23 And I say to you, let my son go, that he may serve me: and IF (conditional) you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, even your firstborn.
Blessings for believing and following...
EXODUS 15:26 And said, IF (conditional)you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in his sight, and will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases on you, which I have brought on the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.
LEVITICUS 26:3-5 [3], IF (conditional) you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; [4] THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. [5], And your threshing shall reach to the vintage, and the vintage shall reach to the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
LEVITICUS 26:14-18 [14], But IF (conditional)you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; [15] And IF (conditional) you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: [16], I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. [17], And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you. [18], And IF (conditional) you will not yet for all this listen to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
There are too mant more to write so may stop here for the Old Testament scriptures and maybe post some more latter.
..............
NEW TESTAMENT (not definitive)
“IF” (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.
God's forgiveness is conditional...
1 JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Being a disciple we must follow what Jesus says...
MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, IF (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Conditons for inheriting eternal life...
MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
JOHN 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for IF (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.
JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
JOHN 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, IF (conditional) you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.
JOHN 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, IF (conditional)a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.
God only hears those who are following His Word...
JOHN 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but IF (conditional) any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears.
JOHN 14:15 IF (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.
JOHN 15:10 IF (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
JOHN 15:14 You are my friends, IF (conditional) you do whatever I command you.
JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, IF (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.
JOHN 15:6-7 [6], IF (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], IF (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.
Ok once again too many to list and may post some more latter..
............
IS OUR SALVATION CONDITIONAL ON BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING GOD'S WORD?
ANSWER: Our salvation is "CONDITIONAL" on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING what God's Word says as shown in both the old and new testament scriptures.
Blessings
Unfortunately, you've already made a bad start when you start your post/claim based upon a straw man argument. It only serves to demonstrate your unfamiliarity with the subject matter. FYI Christian Universalism does not deny any of the conditional statements that accompany salvation. It does not deny the requirement to believe/trust in Jesus as Savior. It does not deny the requirement to obey God and abide in Him. These conditions that must be met are affirmed by Christian Universalism. Where universalism does differ is the belief that eventually all humans are reconciled to God - unlike ECT (eternal conscious torment) and annihilationism - both of which assert that the vast majority of humankind is never reconciled to God.
I think the presumption of Universalists is that those who will have to be punished for their sins and denied heaven until that is accomplished, will, during that process become aware of their sins, repent of them, and so finally be cleansed, remade, etc.
Nonsense. Universalism is a false teaching not based in scripture. God's salvation is indeed conditional. If we do not accept those conditions we do not have salvation. It is as simple as that. There is no second chances at the second coming as His reward is with him * REVELATION 22:12. The definition of Universalism was posted in the OP and contradicts conditional salvation and claiming all men will be saved. This however is the opposite of what the scriptures teach in MATTHEW 7:15-27; HEBREWS 10:26-31 and HEBREWS 6:4-8. BTW I also do not think the Catholic doctrine of eternal torment is biblical either.
Yep already addressed it earlier showing that the Greek agrees with what I was sharing through the scriptures by God's Grace.They will post meanings of Greek words that suit their believes, when you look up the word---that is not the meaning, or is simply only one of the meanings. They get very creative with language!
Well said, Albion. I doubt that many Christians who believe in Universalism expect grave sinners to enter Heaven without true repentance and having receiving some form of punishment.I don't believe in Universalism, but neither am I repulsed by the notion of God eventually saving everyone.
Christian Universalism (that was your focus) doesn't say that sin will not be punished, or that everybody will have the same judgment meted out to them after death as will everyone else.
It's just that the sinner will finally proceed to heaven after being justly punished for his sins while those who had not, in this Earthly life, been found as wanting as that had already been permitted to enter.
Your reply demonstrates that you have not even studied the subject. You believe Wiki for theology matters? Oh brother. I suggest you study further before demonstrating your lack of knowledge regarding this subject. I already told you that Christian Universalism a.k.a the doctrine of apocatastasis acknowledges salvation as conditional; yet you ignore it to suit your own inaccurate definition.Nonsense. Universalism is a false teaching not based in scripture. God's salvation is indeed conditional. If we do not accept those conditions before the 2nd coming we do not have salvation and are lost. It is as simple as that. The teaching of Universalism leads people to believe they can live like the devil, everything will be ok because I will get a second change after JESUS returns. There is no second chances at the second coming as His reward is with him * REVELATION 22:12. The definition of Universalism was posted in the OP from wiki which contradicts conditional salvation before the 2nd coming, claiming all men will be saved. This however is the opposite of what the scriptures teach in MATTHEW 7:15-27; HEBREWS 10:26-31 and HEBREWS 6:4-8. BTW I also do not think the Catholic doctrine of eternal torment is biblical either.
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