The false doctrine of the immortality of the soul (or State of the Dead).

[Eila]

Go on down just a little further and see what the Bible says, Heres the original language, "For David ascended NOT to the heavens says but He said the Lord to the Lord of me Sit at the right of me until I place the enemies of you footstool to the feet of you." Here the Bible clearly tells us the man who was close to the heart of God is not ascended yet but resting in the grave and waiting for the resurrection.

I agree David was not ascended to the heavens when he said that. He did not ascend to the heavens when he died.

The problem is your belief bases it's foundation on a separate entity called an immortal soul that exists in the spirit world after death. They are a spirit and have no physical substance until they are re-united with their bodies at the resurrection, isn't this right? If so then it makes no sense that a spirit would be complaining of burning tongues and fingers in this place of torture. BTW, you never did answer my question concerning Ezek 18:4, why not?

You must have missed it. Look at post number 123

God Bless
Jim Larmore[/quote]

 

[Eila]

Christ cannot do this until he returns, correct?

Yes, when Christ returns we will be rewarded for our works while in the body. Salvation is a totally different issue.

 

[Eila]

Justin Martyr: The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which died. For the spirit dies not; the soul is in the body, and without a soul it cannot live. The body, when the soul forsakes it, is not. For the body is the house of the soul; and the soul the house of the spirit. These three, in all those who cherish a sincere hope and unquestioning faith in God, will be saved." (Justin Martyr, Chapter X.—The Body Saved, and Will Therefore Rise)

177 AD Athenagoras the Athenian, Chapter XXIV.—Argument for the Resurrection from the Chief End of Man. "For such an end as this, I suppose, belongs to beasts and cattle, not to men possessed of an immortal soul and rational judgment."

200AD Tertullian Chapter XXVII.—Soul and Body Conceived, Formed and Perfected in Element Simultaneously. How, then, is a living being conceived? Is the substance of both body and soul formed together at one and the same time? Or does one of them precede the other in natural formation? We indeed maintain that both are conceived, and formed, and perfectly simultaneously, as well as born together; and that not a moment’s interval occurs in their conception, so that, a prior place can be assigned to either. Judge, in fact, of the incidents of man’s earliest existence by those which occur to him at the very last. As death is defined to be nothing else than the separation of body and soul, life, which is the opposite of death, is susceptible of no other definition than the conjunction of body and soul. If the severance happens at one and the same time to both substances by means of death, so the law of their combination ought to assure us that it occurs simultaneously to the two substances by means of life. Now we allow that life begins with conception, because we contend that the soul also begins from conception; life taking its commencement at the same moment and place that the soul does.

250 AD Ignatius The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,—in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. (book 2 ch 34)

 

[Jimlarmore]

Justin Martyr: The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which died. For the spirit dies not; the soul is in the body, and without a soul it cannot live. The body, when the soul forsakes it, is not. For the body is the house of the soul; and the soul the house of the spirit. These three, in all those who cherish a sincere hope and unquestioning faith in God, will be saved." (Justin Martyr, Chapter X.—The Body Saved, and Will Therefore Rise)

177 AD Athenagoras the Athenian, Chapter XXIV.—Argument for the Resurrection from the Chief End of Man. "For such an end as this, I suppose, belongs to beasts and cattle, not to men possessed of an immortal soul and rational judgment."

200AD Tertullian Chapter XXVII.—Soul and Body Conceived, Formed and Perfected in Element Simultaneously. How, then, is a living being conceived? Is the substance of both body and soul formed together at one and the same time? Or does one of them precede the other in natural formation? We indeed maintain that both are conceived, and formed, and perfectly simultaneously, as well as born together; and that not a moment’s interval occurs in their conception, so that, a prior place can be assigned to either. Judge, in fact, of the incidents of man’s earliest existence by those which occur to him at the very last. As death is defined to be nothing else than the separation of body and soul, life, which is the opposite of death, is susceptible of no other definition than the conjunction of body and soul. If the severance happens at one and the same time to both substances by means of death, so the law of their combination ought to assure us that it occurs simultaneously to the two substances by means of life. Now we allow that life begins with conception, because we contend that the soul also begins from conception; life taking its commencement at the same moment and place that the soul does.

250 AD Ignatius The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,—in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. (book 2 ch 34)

I don't mean to sound disrespectful but just because some guys who lived long ago thought the soul was immortal doesn't make it so and they don't support their beleif from the Bible. Actually, this belief comes from pagan teachings that stem way back to Babylon and even to the garden of eden when the serpent told eve "she would not surely die, but was really brought to the modern age thru the teachings of Greek or Helenistic teachings.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Eila]

I don't mean to sound disrespectful but just because some guys who lived long ago thought the soul was immortal doesn't make it so and they don't support their beleif from the Bible. Actually, this belief comes from pagan teachings that stem way back to Babylon and even to the garden of eden when the serpent told eve "she would not surely die, but was really brought to the modern age thru the teachings of Greek or Helenistic teachings.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

So you are saying that Jesus used error to teach when he talked about the rich man and Lazarus and that the early church fathers also taught error? Then Jesus did a poor job teaching His followers what you consider to be the correct belief. The devil lied in the garden to Eve. Eve did surely die that day as God had told her. It was not her body that died, but her soul/spirit. Death does not mean something stops existing.

 

[Jimlarmore]

I agree David was not ascended to the heavens when he said that. He did not ascend to the heavens when he died.

Even the Jews consider Abraham's bossom to be heaven. How do you reconcile this disparity?

You must have missed it. Look at post number 123

I'm sorry I did miss that part of your response. What you said was that the context was about the sins of the fathers would not be put on the head of the children? Is that it? Actually, that is only part of the context, you left off the verses following verse 4 which says that a soul that obeys and turns away from evil will live. Clearly as the whole Bible tells us what is at stake is life and death here. If someone lives forever wicked or righteous then everyone has eternal life. This is just not supported in the Bible.

Roman 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Deut 30:19 " I call heaven and earth to record this day against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life that both thou and thy seed may live."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not PERISH but have everlasting LIFE."
I could go on and on.

However, Ok if we just use your version of the context how does that in any way change the statement God makes that says "All souls are mine, the soul that sinneth it shall die," ? If you are going to use context to refute or change the way someone is interpreting a verse you have to find aspects of it that logically refute or changes the wrong perception someone has. The fact that the sins of the fathers will not be put on the head of his children does not do that.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

Yes, when Christ returns we will be rewarded for our works while in the body. Salvation is a totally different issue.

So are you saying those in Abraham's bossom are not saved yet? Can you find or give me "any other scriptures" where I can start to base my belief on this place you are calling Abraham's bossom and what it actually is? If it is indeed an actual literal place where everyone goes at death that is saved the Bible should be full of texts describing it. The paradise of God is described very well, is that where you think it is? The paradise of God is heaven in the fullest sense of the word. Let me know, I'm really curious.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Eila]

So are you saying those in Abraham's bossom are not saved yet? Can you find or give me any other scriptures where I can start to base my belief on this place you are calling Abraham's bossom? If it is indeed an actual literal place where everyone goes at death that is saved the Bible should be full of texts describing it. The paradise of God is described very well, is that where you think it is? The paradise of God is heaven in the fullest sense of the word. Let me know, I'm really curious.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Abraham's bosom is empty. Jesus emptied it. I will post the scriptures in a bit.

 

[Eila]

Even the Jews consider Abraham's bossom to be heaven. How do you reconcile this disparity?

I am unfamiliar. What Jews are you talking about? Jews in Jesus' day or Jews now? I do know that some consider that Abraham's bosom went to heaven when Jesus set the captives free, but I don't suppose that is what the Jews would think.

I'm sorry I did miss that part of your response. What you said was that the context was about the sins of the fathers would not be put on the head of the children? Is that it? Actually, that is only part of the context, you left off the verses following verse 4 which says that a soul that obeys and turns away from evil will live. Clearly as the whole Bible tells us what is at stake is life and death here. If someone lives forever wicked or righteous then everyone has eternal life. This is just not supported in the Bible.

Yes, a soul is eternal whether it is dead or alive. Life does not equal existing and death does not equal not existing. Something can die and still exist. A body can be alive, yet inside the soul can be dead to God. It is Christ who makes us alive.

 

[Eila]

Abraham's bosom is empty. Jesus emptied it. I will post the scriptures in a bit.

For the sake of time I am posting a link that you can read with scriptures and explanations. Robert Moray is very thorough. The link gives scriptural support for Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and Gehenna. http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/sheol_hades.htm

 

[Jimlarmore]

I am unfamiliar. What Jews are you talking about? Jews in Jesus' day or Jews now? I do know that some consider that Abraham's bosom went to heaven when Jesus set the captives free, but I don't suppose that is what the Jews would think.

Abraham's bossom to the Jews in Jesus day was considered heaven.

Yes, a soul is eternal whether it is dead or alive. Life does not equal existing and death does not equal not existing. Something can die and still exist. A body can be alive, yet inside the soul can be dead to God. It is Christ who makes us alive.

The soul is mentioned over 1600 times in the Bible and not one time is it ever said to be immortal or undying. Ezek 18:4 tells us souls die and in Matthew Christ tells us that souls die. What is it about these verses that you cannot accept? BTW, could you please respond to my question about Ezek 18:4's context refuting what it says about souls dying?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

I think unless someone has a specific question about the Biblical validity of this I am going to back out of this discussion at this point. There is no need to beat a dead horse here.

My dear Eila,
I want to sincerely thankyou for defending your side of this to the best of your ability. I hope you understand I hold absolutely no anomosity (ms) towards you at all. I love you as a sister in the faith and the body of Christ. I think we all need to pray for each other as we approach the 2nd coming of Christ. Please forgive me if I have offended you in any way.

My parting words are these, if anyone reading this is presently speaking to a departed loved one who comes and visits on a regular basis you need to know that this being is NOT really your departed loved one. No matter how convincing he/she may look and sound the Bible makes it very clear that the dead are asleep and awaiting the life givers command to arise on resurrection morning. Reading the commands of God concerning familiar spirits and talking to them lets us know just how serious this can be. Spiritism is a very strong and potent force in our society today and it all starts with this false teaching that the soul is immortal.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Eila]

I think unless someone has a specific question about the Biblical validity of this I am going to back out of this discussion at this point. There is no need to beat a dead horse here.

My dear Eila,
I want to sincerely thankyou for defending your side of this to the best of your ability. I hope you understand I hold absolutely no anomosity (ms) towards you at all. I love you as a sister in the faith and the body of Christ. I think we all need to pray for each other as we approach the 2nd coming of Christ. Please forgive me if I have offended you in any way.

My parting words are these, if anyone reading this is presently speaking to a departed loved one who comes and visits on a regular basis you need to know that this being is NOT really your departed loved one. No matter how convincing he/she may look and sound the Bible makes it very clear that the dead are asleep and awaiting the life givers command to arise on resurrection morning. Reading the commands of God concerning familiar spirits and talking to them lets us know just how serious this can be. Spiritism is a very strong and potent force in our society today and it all starts with this false teaching that the soul is immortal.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Thank you for your kind words Jim.

I too will express my concern regarding soul sleep. I fear that those who believe in soul sleep will not fully understand that they are born again and can have assurance of their salvation - that they have passed from death to life.

John 5:24 "24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

 

[BrightCandle]

Thank you for your kind words Jim.

I too will express my concern regarding soul sleep. I fear that those who believe in soul sleep will not fully understand that they are born again and can have assurance of their salvation - that they have passed from death to life.

John 5:24 "24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

Our assurance of salvation is based in a relationship with Jesus and being filled with the Holy Spirit. It is not based on the possession of an immortal spirit that is impervious to the results of sin and is able to sustain itself outside of the power of God. New Ages spiritualism teaches that philosophy. If we our bodies have immortality on this earth as soon as we repent of our sins, then you wouldn't see any funerals among the "once saved, always saved" churches!

 

[Eila]

Our assurance of salvation is based in a relationship with Jesus and being filled with the Holy Spirit. It is not based on the possession of an immortal spirit that is impervious to the results of sin and is able to sustain itself outside of the power of God. New Ages spiritualism teaches that philosophy. If we our bodies have immortality on this earth as soon as we repent of our sins, then you wouldn't see any funerals among the "once saved, always saved" churches!

I don't know of any group that believes our bodies have immortality when we are born again. Jesus didn't seem to have a problem with the immortal spirit.

 

[reddogs]

One of the most solemn and yet most glorious truths revealed in the Bible is that of Christ's second coming, to complete the great work of redemption that began at the Garden of Eden, after sin caused man to reap its result of death. To those who put their faith in Jesus, they long for his second coming so they can leave this sojourn in the "region and shadow of death," that resulted from the wages of sin. So for anyone to say, that they dont need the second coming, that they have no need to be ressurected, to be redeemed by Jesus Christ, becasue they have already entered into the spirit world at death, and/or already gone to heaven is not what scriptures teaches. It is a deception, it opens the door to spurious views regarding the afterlife, and it has permeated the religious world with its false promises, false doctrines, apparitions of the dead by spirits of demons who would deceive, white witches, mediums and wizards. This false beliefs on what happens at death offers promises of multiple choices that can be made in terms of one’s salvation and multiple chances in terms of qualifying for salvation, completely against what Jesus taught. The Word of God is very clear on this issue, that none of these doctrines and beliefs were to be tolerated by the people of God because they were all rooted in a false perception of death. It leads to Spiritualism, reincarnation and necromancy (the worship and consulting of the dead)and the scriptures warns that this would happen, and in the last days, many would be fooled into following by these false beliefs and even join with evil to fight against God.

"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." Revelation 16:14

The Bible teaches:

"There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee." Deuteronomy 18:10-11

"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it; And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse." 1 Chronicles 10:13-14

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

Many people today, including a vast number of those who say they are christian, seek counsel from psychics, channelers, and spiritualists. Spiritualism has invaded the churches, as well, with the door openned by the false teaching of the immortality of the soul.

The Bible teaches that the dead are dead, that the dead cannot communicate with the living, and that immortality is a gift from God given to the righteous at His second coming.

"...the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4

"...the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality," 1 Timothy 6:15-16

"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come." Job 14:12-14

The confusion surrounding this Bible topic began at the very beginning when the father of lies, Satan, setting the stage for his last day deceptions, preached the first sermon on the immortal soul. "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:" Genesis 3:4a precious, joy-inspiring hope is given in the promise of His appearing, who is "the resurrection and the life," to "bring home again his banished."

When the Saviour was about to be separated from his disciples, he comforted them in their sorrow with the assurance that he would come again: "Let not your heart be troubled." "In my Father's house are many mansions." "I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself." John 14:1-3. "The Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him. Then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory, and before him shall be gathered all nations." Matt. 25:31, 32.

The coming of the Lord has been in all ages the hope of his true followers. The Saviour's parting promise upon Olivet, that he would come again, lighted up the future for his disciples, filling their hearts with joy and hope, that sorrow could not quench, nor trials dim. Amid suffering and persecution, "the appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" was the "blessed hope." When the Thessalonian Christians were filled with grief as they buried their loved ones, who had hoped to live to witness the coming of the Lord, Paul, their teacher, pointed them to the resurrection, to take place at the the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Then the dead in Christ should rise, and together with the living be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. "And so," he said, "shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." 1 Thess. 4:16-18.

 

[Eila]

So for anyone to say, that they dont need the second coming, that they have no need to be ressurected, to be redeemed by Jesus Christ, becasue they have already entered into the spirit world at death, and/or already gone to heaven is not what scriptures teaches. It is a deception, it opens the door to spurious views regarding the afterlife, and it has permeated the religious world with its false promises, false doctrines, apparitions of the dead by spirits of demons who would deceive, white witches, mediums and wizards.

Who here has said the second coming was unnecessary? The idea of an immortal spirit so permeated the religious world that Jesus taught it.

This false beliefs on what happens at death offers promises of multiple choices that can be made in terms of one’s salvation and multiple chances in terms of qualifying for salvation, completely against what Jesus taught.

What multiple choices or chances are you talking about? I have never mentioned multiple choices. One is either a child of God or a child of the devil.

The Word of God is very clear on this issue, that none of these doctrines and beliefs were to be tolerated by the people of God because they were all rooted in a false perception of death.

Perhaps you should read Luke 16. Jesus not only tolerated the idea of an immortal spirit, but taught it.

 

[reddogs]

Where you are with your relationship with Christ is basically judged at death as there is nothing else to base it on. Thus it is set but the reward/judgement from it is at the second coming not at the moment they die although it comes out to the same as nothing else occurs in that persons life:

"All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth." John 5:28, 29. "David ... is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." "For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:29, 34. "If I wait, the grave is mine house." Job 17:13.

So people do not go either to heaven or hell at death. They go to their graves to await the resurrection day.

 

[Eila]

Where you are with your relationship with Christ is basically judged at death as there is nothing else to base it on. Thus it is set but the reward/judgement from it is at the second coming not at the moment they die although it comes out to the same as nothing else occurs in that persons life:

"All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth." John 5:28, 29. "David ... is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." "For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:29, 34. "If I wait, the grave is mine house." Job 17:13.

So people do not go either to heaven or hell at death. They go to their graves to await the resurrection day.

1 John 5 "
10He who believes in the Son of God [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Him] has the testimony [possesses this divine attestation] within himself. He who does not believe God [in this way] has made Him out to be and represented Him as a liar, because he has not believed (put his faith in, adhered to, and relied on) the evidence (the testimony) that God has borne regarding His Son.
11And this is that testimony (that evidence): God gave us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12He who possesses the Son has that life; he who does not possess the Son of God does not have that life.
13I write this to you who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) the name of the Son of God [in [c]the peculiar services and blessings conferred by Him on men], so that you may know [with settled and absolute knowledge] that you [already] have life, [d]yes, eternal life."

We have already been given eternal life when we were born again. Our body was not reborn, but our spirit was.

John 3 "
5Jesus answered, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, unless a man is born of water and [[a]even] the Spirit, he cannot [ever] enter the kingdom of God.(A)
6What is born of [from] the flesh is flesh [of the physical is physical]; and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not [do not be surprised, astonished] at My telling you, You must all be born anew (from above)."

 

[Jon0388g]

"Now at that time, Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise...and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."

Daniel 12:1-2

Jon